The seller on this site - cryo-parts - has a really beautiful restored Garrard 301 on a custom birch/walnut plinth with a 12inch Ortofon arm. Price is $4275 + 65 shipping from Minnesota. This TT is far superior to your two choices and WILL outperform your digital setup! He is offering a choice of two Ortofon cartridges, a SPU G and a SP15 for a reasonable price. For all the money you've invested in your fine system this would be the proper complement!
HELP PLEASE - VPI Classic Signature 3D Arm or Dr. Feickert Woodpecker Jelco Arm
Need some help guys from the well informed analog folks.
VPI Classic Signature w/3D arm - New Open Box - Soundsmith Carman MKII Cart is brand new
or
Dr. Feickert Woodpecker Jelco arm static demo - Dynavector 20x2 Cart is brand new
Both tables are either static demo’s or open box and mint and from reputable dealers the carts are brand new and will be mounted for me.
Both are around $4,400 price all in.
I’m open to other options but landed on these two for best for the price I thought and these are the carts for this price target that each dealer can offer. Trying to not make things too crazy option wise but I always get great info from you guys so please share any and all thoughts. What one would you get? Either?
Here in my situation:
I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system.
Best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I want to add a turntable and a decent / competent but reasonable priced cart to startout and then if needed I can upgrade later.
Will these tables have a legit chance to be at least as good as my Digital do you think?
Could they sound better or no chance? Everyone says vinyl is better when using decent enough equipment so I’ll list the rest of my rig below to get your opinions.
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.
For my phonostage I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp with built in phonostage as well which was done at a reasonable cost which is great!
Here is some other info that may be relevant. Thanks so much for the help!
** Back Ground info**
** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak
** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.
** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.
** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.
To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and here we are :)
System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160
- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas
- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.
This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward for the budget it listed as I already own the Phonostage so my budget is for table, arm and cart.
Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)
VPI Classic Signature w/3D arm - New Open Box - Soundsmith Carman MKII Cart is brand new
or
Dr. Feickert Woodpecker Jelco arm static demo - Dynavector 20x2 Cart is brand new
Both tables are either static demo’s or open box and mint and from reputable dealers the carts are brand new and will be mounted for me.
Both are around $4,400 price all in.
I’m open to other options but landed on these two for best for the price I thought and these are the carts for this price target that each dealer can offer. Trying to not make things too crazy option wise but I always get great info from you guys so please share any and all thoughts. What one would you get? Either?
Here in my situation:
I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system.
Best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I want to add a turntable and a decent / competent but reasonable priced cart to startout and then if needed I can upgrade later.
Will these tables have a legit chance to be at least as good as my Digital do you think?
Could they sound better or no chance? Everyone says vinyl is better when using decent enough equipment so I’ll list the rest of my rig below to get your opinions.
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.
For my phonostage I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp with built in phonostage as well which was done at a reasonable cost which is great!
Here is some other info that may be relevant. Thanks so much for the help!
** Back Ground info**
** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak
** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.
** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.
** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.
To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and here we are :)
System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160
- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas
- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.
This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward for the budget it listed as I already own the Phonostage so my budget is for table, arm and cart.
Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)
26 responses Add your response
Hello roberjerman, Thank you for this. I actually saw that but know so little about older redone tables but I did see that and I know people love those. Is it really that much better sounding? I thought maybe it would need one of those expensive wood bases that you see on here that are like 3 times more than my budget just for the wood. Any one else have any feedback. I mean if it really is far superior then i will inquire about it.I kind of like the idea of a newer table but if this table flat out is a much better sounding table then that's what i want. Please elaborate if you can. I just know so little but i can say the best info I get is from members on here so I asked for help for a reason because I just know so little and would like a turntable that would sound better than my digital and has that great sound everyone speaks of. I have never experienced great vinyl sound in my system in my home so would love it. Thanks |
OK so a couple for the VPI. Any other thoughts out there? I guess i have spoiled by the amp/preamp/speaker buys because I get tons of great advice other there and I really appreciate the responses from you guys as well. I mean it may sound dumb but i am not sure what to do and I make my own decision but these feedback threads really help me to decide what to buy. Thank you |
Dear @fsmithjack : """ because I just know so little and would like a turntable that would sound better than my digital and has that great sound everyone speaks of. """ Years ago was more easy to define which analog rig beats the digital alternative but today the top digital alternative is unbeatable not only by the analog/LP but even by the R2R one. Digital alternative growing up to today very high status and does not stops there, almost every day digital is improving where analog/LP just " stays " as 10 years o more status: no true/real improvements and with almost no hope to improves. I’m a music lover and analog lover too but I can’t close the sun with one finger to tell that analog beats digital alternative when in true reality is the other way around: like it or not to we analog lovers. I speak in that way because my main target is to be/stay nearer/truer to the recording and the endless imperfection characteristics in the recording and playback of the analog/LP alternative preclude to be nearer to te recording ( on what the microphones pick up. ) as the digital one. This is a fact, no discussion about: it’s useless and in this same forum we analized more than one time that true. Why audiophiles are in love with analog/LP? because almost all of us are accustomed to the analog/LP high distortions levels. We are not accustomed to the real true that’s what digital shows to us. In the next link you can read this by the OP of the thread ( a truly " modest " system vs yours but.....says a lot. ): """ But recently I got a PS Audio Directstream Jr Dac and it’s blowing my mind - for the first time in my life I am listening to way more digital than analog. """ the link: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vac-sigma-160i-se-or-arc-ls26-primaluna-dialogue-premium If I was you what I make is to invest in continue fine tunning the room/system including that digital alternative at software/hardware levels. These money and consuming time will gives you more enjoyment/rewards than the best analog/LP experience in that system. Now, looking your very nice audio system I see that you have two subwoofers that I don’t know how are connected . Your speakers cross over to the mid range at around 300 hz that’s to high frequency that develops intermodulation distortion level that are higher than what is desired ( even with the Magico " pedigree ". ) So, the subwoofers for stereo listening is a must to have and not as bass reinforcement but to lower in significative levels that intermodulation distortion and harmonic distortion level too . To achieve that those two subwoofers must have be connected in true stereo fashion crossing at around 80hz-85hz to the Magico’s. This means that the Magico will handle the frequency range from 80hz-85hz to 50khz that is the S5 hig limit frequency and the subs will play from 80hz-85hz and down all the bass range. Doing this will gives you non-imaginable rewards in the whole quality level performance of your Stereo system. Till you do it you can’t know what I’m talking about. You can be sure that your system will shines as never before. As always the best judge is you because the " ball " is in your court side. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I have owned a lot of turntables. I have also heard a VPI higher up the line than the one you are considering and
Dr. Feickert Woodpecker with Jelco arm at length. IMO the Garrard will sound better than either. It will also have great resale. I currently own a Garrard 301 and a Michell. I recently sold a SME 10. My system is posted here if you want to see it. Glad you are having fun with the hobby. |
Great info - thanks ive thought about pooring remaining Audio resources into digital but the option there would be an expensive server. The reason ive decided not to go that route really is Brian at Bricasti. His digital in my opinion is some of the best in the world for the money. He has for the last 2 years been developing and continuing to build and tweak a new Ethernet based media server that he installs and builds right into the Bricasti M1SE. The Bricasti factory is about a half hour from my house and after the holidays I’m dropping my DAC off for this great upgrade. All the USB, S/PDIF or IS2 based servers or players won’t apply. I’m also of the opinion that Ethernet is where Digital is heading and fast. Why because I believe it’s the best and the future. microRendo taught me what a Ethernet based system can do and what that medium is capeable of. Now I’m taking it up a few notches. In the Ethernet based program it is converted to IS2 right before the DAC chips, pure and clean internally so it removes the cable impedance matching issues and noise and all that leakage and parasitic noise. Once I install this upgrade I’ll want to make sure the server feeding the music via Ethernet is as fast and modern and as clean as possible. All solid state based. I’ll want the best while requiring lowest power processor and the most modern and best ram and the best Solid State Hard drives to hold the OP system and software and best solid state drives holding the music and an excellent linear power supplies to power the modem, router, switch and server all plugged into the PS Audio P10 then running the best Ethernet cabling right into my Bricasti. This is already my plan as I have the PC in mind already. The I7 Sonic Transporter by Small Green Computer but with the rare special order version of windows to run both JRiver amd HD player. Paul Pang Ethernet switch with his Custom Femto based linear power supply and upgraded premium and ultra quite voltage regulation. Paul Hynes dual rail S5 linear Power Supply. Uptone Audio JS-2 Linear power supply. This should I hope be some pretty serious digital or at least in so far as Ethernet based which I believe is the best and the future. There should not be a cd or sacd player that can touch it at any price. All this said - this plan is already in place and in process on the digital side. Ive got a few funds earmarked to take a shot at some vinyl. Trust me I won’t be surprised is if this digital wipes the floor of the vinyl but something in the back of my mind says not so quick. Everyone - everywhere has stayed over and over again the excellent vinyl beats incredible digital and I’m fixing to push my Ethernet digital out on the cutting edge while hoping to put together a competitive enough vinyl rig that makes me want to spin some records. I ‘lol be using same Speakers, same Amp, same Preamp, same Cables in the same room so it will be nice to see where it goes. if this vinyl has no shot then I’d love to hear the thoughts and feedback. I very much appreciate the help. I know my digital and just learning about vinyl so any and all feedback is deeply appreciated! |
I learned early on, everything is important except looks. Unlike the electronically generated digital signal analog begins its journey from a mechanical source suspended and excited by mechanical means. Compared to digital the variables are astronomical. Even so the cartridge source remains much closer to an actual instrument. At $4000 the speed stability while under play of the Technics SL 1200G will better most five and six figure decks. Its inert design and industrial level drive will last a beyond a lifetime. Replace the arm (which equals those of your sellected tables) and select a smart cartridge and your very near the state of the art for under twenty grand. Just a thought. Fifty years ago Lotus produced the Elan. A brief drive would school your senses as to what an automobile is supposed to do. Well chosen parts and crapy paint. Here's where the awkward looks rears its duckling head. https://www.dagogo.com/merrill-replica-es-r1-turntable-review/2/ The money you save on the little Merrill should be budgeted on a much better source cartridge in the Benz Micro Glider price level or more. |
My two cents worth. For years I had a Sota Star Sapphire with a SME V arm, a wonderful setup. Two years ago I decided to make some changes. I have listened to the VPI with the 3D arm ( a friend had one ) as did my local high end dealer. It was nice, but I just wasn't a fan of the arm. So, I went into N.Y.C. to audition the Feickert Woodpecker with the Jelco arm. I cannot say one sounded better because of different speakers, electronics, etc., but the Woodpecker was built like a tank, evidencing its teutonic heritage. Reviews were also very good. I ended up with the Feickert Firebird with the Kuzma 4 point and after two years of use i couldn't be happier. |
Several excellent ideas above. At the $4k level you have many good choices. After decades with an evolving VPI TNT and a bespoke Mark Kelly speed controller, I’m more impressed with vintage direct drive tables like Luxman PD-444 and Kenwood L07D, both of which are within your range. Neither requires replinthing, though both benefit from better footers and good siting. For an innovative belt drive, check out Fern & Roby’s factory-direct top model. It uses the same Hurst motor as VPI, but with a more sophisticated closed-loop speed controller that compensates for variations in belt tension and wear. It can be had with F&R’s own tonearm, or an optional Schroeder arm at a higher price. I have a source for a Feickert Woodpecker at a cheaper price than you mention. PM if that is of interest. That’s also a great choice. As we have similar digital set-ups that include Ethernet-to-USB endpoints with USB conditioning and linear DC power supplies, I have an idea of your performance level with digital. My MicroRendu was lately replaced with top SOtM pieces and a custom EN hub, all synchronized to a 10mHz master clock and powered by a Hynes SR7 master power supply. Sounds great, but still not quite as satisfying as my vinyl rig(distortions and all, with due respect to Raul!) You’re moving in an interesting direction with vinyl, provided that you’re willing to put time and effort into optimal setup. I’m not sure that the Levinson integrated phono preamp will get you there, but worth a try. |
I just want to respond to Raul. I agree that digital is getting better, but don't fall for the "it's more accurate" argument. One way to determine is whether or not you are actually listening to the music, or are you thinking about something else, or what song to play next. If you are, something is missing. That something, although it may not be measurable, makes digital less accurate in that way. |
Dear @fsmithjack : Even the S5II needs a pair of self powered subwoofers connected in a true stereo fashion.. As a fact all passive loudspeakers needs those subwoofers, it's a " sin equa non " condition in any pasive audio system. It does not matters if name is Magico or Wilson or whatever and even it does not matters what the people of Magico could think about. You are more or less satisfied with your digital alternative, well you can't even imagine the whole improvement you will have with the subs connected in the rigth way. I'm not talking here to add " bum bum bum " to the listening experience it's more deeper and " new " experience where the primary target is not what subwoofers does but what those Magico will does ! ! Not only your Pass amplifier can't handle in precise way those Magico speakers in the bass range as a fact no other amp can do it because the amps were not designed to fulfill the very specific needs of the Magico speakers. Amps are " universal " when in powered subs the amps were designed in specific for the woofers needs and this makes a huge differences in the quality bass range performance but more important what makes in the Magico " new " frequency range that will goes from the upper bass range to 50 khz. Here you can read something about: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 After fine tunning your room/system with the powered subwoofers your not only your digital will shines but your analog rig will does too ! ! Btw, @dgarretson you know the high respect I have for you and I'm not in " total " disagreement with you but think on this: for many years our brain/body was and is accustomed to the analog experiences and if we suddenly swicht to digital our brain/body answer will be exactly like you said. What happens if for 4-6 months in a row you listen only to the digital alternative and don't was exposed to the analog one?, well that when you listening again to analog you will be totally aware and in a very precise way will detect not only those very high LP distortions but that at the end will not so easy to live with when you know for sure that with digital you stay truer to the recording but we have to make that time test. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I don’t disagree on the greatness of subs. I sold mine when in the process of flipping my entire system to build to roll out my system refit - my current system. I had a couple of Sumiko S.9’s and although not great Subs they were decent and I really appreciated what they added. I loved how the REL Onspeaker hook up was smooth and easy to set up but with Pass amps the Onspeaker hooked to the ground on the speaker wire caused problems. Pass has added an extra ground on back of amps to handle this but mine did not have one so I would have had to have made DIY cable and soldered the negative leg of the Onspeaker sub wire into a Interconnect RCA and grounded though the RCA so I just moved my Subs. I may add a pair in future but Pass amps without the added ground plugs does not play well with REL type SpeakerOn Cables. |
I would go with the VPI Prime with the 10” 3D arm. As for cartridges, you are going to have to do better than the mentioned Ortofon/Soundsmith/Denon to get better sound than your digital setup. Also, when you do move up in cartridges, your phono board will be the weak link. The VPI arm will handle the higher quality carts. If you do get the new 3D arm, get the upgrade multi-pivot option. I just upgraded my Hanss T-60 TT with the new 10” 3D arm with soundsmith cart |
@rauliruegas I get what you’re saying about withdrawal from longstanding listening habits. Judgments in audio should be made across the long term. After several improvements to my digital rig, it dawned on me that perspective might be gained by recording vinyl to hi-res digital and comparing those LP recordings to hi-res digital downloads. Comparing those DSD128 recordings of LPs to digital downloads, for the majority of high-quality LP sources(e.g. MoFi, Analogue Productions), I tended to prefer the DSD128 recordings over hi-res digital downloads. Results varied for hi-res digital downloads of uncertain provenance. This begs the question of whether an LP heard in the all-analog domain "betters" a digital source, but if on average an LP transferred into the hi-res digital domain "betters" native digital, then that pretty much puts the matter to rest for me. In this instance the digital recording must be faithfully capturing something that is "different" and euphonic about vinyl, but that difference-- whether heard as distortion or not-- may be preferable. |
Dear @fsmithjack : Problem is not on the Pass amp, problem is how the Rel has to be connected. What you need is to find out this remarkable active crossover: https://www.passlabs.com/preamplifier/xvr-1 this crossover option is very good too: https://www.ebay.com/itm/9ACCUPHASE-F-25-Electronic-Frequency-Dividing-Network-active-crossover-JBL-... With those options the preamp signal goes to the electronic crossover and then to the Pass amp and from here to the Magico. The subs will takes the signal from the electronic crossover outputs too. For subwoofers there are several manufacture brands to choice. For the stereo experience I prefer subs with sealed design as Velodyne that is out of production but you always can buy second hand HGS-15 that are exceptional for true high end stereo music or DD-15. In this regards no other home audio sub can match it due that the THD of those Velodyne's is only 0.5% ! ! that's truly wonderful and this spec maybe is the more important one in a sub. The " touted " JL audio ones are over 5%-6% on THD. There is no comparation vs Velodyne. With subs first than all we need very low distortion levels but Velodyne is not only about low low distortion levels but has very good quality level performance that can't be out performed by any other I experienced. @dgarretson can gives you more info about. Of course that with the Velodyne's you always can use a passive dedicated frequency ( 80 hz. ) high-filter and from here to the Pass amp and the subs will takes the signal from the preamp´output directly. I insist that you need to test your system in this way. I know you are not " prepared " for what you will listening when you do it ! Regards and enjoyb the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |