Psacanli, You are right in the respect of not being able to avoid the marketing hype from the music companies that would come with such downloads- new artists, samplers of new songs scheduled for the next release, and the list goes on.... I can't see myself going into it too easily as I like to read the covers, the intro, and the artists impressionn... all on the nice glossy paper. Vinyl lovers enjoy this even more with 'readable' sized print. I guess we are turning into grumpy old guys who don't like too much change (probably can't keep up with it either) |
Nevillekapedia, Your thoughts are sensible, practical and certainly probable. I'm afraid there will somehow be contamination just like todays DVD come with so much advertising, features,behing the scenes, etc I find unnecessary and unwanted. Mainstream media suffer from mainstream media promotion thinking sort of like Mc Donalds burgers probably use 'the' cheapest ingredients to 'make a buck'. |
I just bought a 40CD Box Vivaldi Compilation from DECCA for $62(paper sleeves only) and a 12CD Box set of Mahler Symphonies also from DECCA(with Richard Chailly conducting to a "very" high standard)for $29, both new from a shop. I will continue to buy values like these and expect the CD's themselves to last forever(I'm near 60)for me. I am encouraged to state I can probably be satisfied with CD indefinitely at low prices even though SACD,DVD-A and HDCD sound much better. Cost does influence the size of my library. I have a thousands of classical & jazz records and yet there are a tremendous number of discs and compilations on CD I would like to buy. I can listen to CD's and get deep into the music and that's my determining factor. Just like I can thoroughly enjoy an 'average' beer served at the right temperature in good company on a warm day; I'm sure it is worthwhile and eminently sensible to upgrade to a top class CD player as there is enough interesting satisfying music on CD to keep one listening indefinitely. Long live the CD (and HDCD Reference Recordings) at economical prices. I use a ref Spectral/MIT system so I'm probably in the top % of 'fussy' listeners. If CD can remain profitable it can survive a while yet. I'm presently enjoying Saturday afternoon at the Opera on FM radio, enough said. |
Nice thread. Maybe our discussion can't change the future, but neither can our discussions about weather or sports change those outcomes. It's all about connections, having fun and thinking. My take is that cds will be around until they can be downloaded accurately on super broadband (per Regalmal's observation). The Squeezebox is a great product which provides about 95%+ of cd quality and a ton more convenience -- just like cd's compared to vinyl. However, it's still best to start with the cd product. I'm looking forward to high def downloads! |
There is a simple solution for anyone preferring cd's over pc based systems, regardless of how media evolve. Download in lossless format from the web and burn to cd-r. The only issue then is the lack of cover art or booklets but good download sites should in future be making those available online. |
Regarding Naxos, they have just announced that they are offering their entire catalog in lossless WMA, without drm, on the MusicGiants download website. See the August 25 newsclip at audaud.com. The same clip says that Pentatone will be added soon as well.
Linn Audio, Chandos, shortly AIX, HMV UK, and several orchestras and bands have websites with either partial or complete catalog offerings in lossless formats. Keep in mind that it's early and that much of the download area is just now ramping up. High quality downloads need audiophile support in order to assure that the web offers more than just MP3. |
I believe "profit" is the driving/sustaining force. Production costs are cheap & might? be reduced with technological improvements. Distribution via middlemen & retailers is/was expensive. Direct mail sales of CD's may reduce storage/movement/handling/commision cost. Is it possible prices can come down driving sales & profits higher encouraging CD's continued life and even improved quality? I hope so. |
I give it 10 years maybe. Consider that Mp3 and the others out there just don't sound as good. Though I love my Ipod and lossless flak etc. There is just something a great Cd does and great player along with that computer based music hasn't quite touched yet, but boy is it moving fast. Benchmark etc. are out there making my Mac the next music server candidate. So maybe it romantic of me to think 10 years, but I love my Vacuum tube cd player so I hope Cd's hang in there so I can enjoy this player. |
I just looked at the Naxos site.
Sadly, what they call "CD Quality Sound" is actually 128 kbps. This bit rate isn't even close to CD Quality. |
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...now that's ominous.
Mitch4t Mitch4t, you're not kidding! |
I see quick, easy to use and effortless download of high CD quality as the future for us audiophiles, where if you are not a hardware music format collector(vinyl or silver discs), large libraries/music companies offering an extensive collection of software at moderate prices will be the future. For enviormental as well as raw material demands, and the advent of better technology (Cd transport being overtaken in sound quality by a HDD)I would say after the next 20 years onwards this will be the way things will be. Faster and cheaper broadbrand/cable whatever you may call it will be the deciding factor. |
. “we could live comfortable[sic] if from tomorrow we never sold another CD.”
....now that's ominous. . |
I think CD will live on as a niche product in the same way that vinyl does. For the mass market, downloads are eclipsing hardcopy. In addition to the thin, lo-rez stuff on iTunes, high quality lossless downloads from MusicGiants, Naxos and others are finding their feet in the marketplace. Just a few weeks ago, the founder of Naxos Music went on record as saying “we could live comfortable[sic] if from tomorrow we never sold another CD.” http://www.sequenza21.com/naxos/?p=65 |
Good news. A new type of redbook CD's are on the horizon, and it will be made public soon. I am reviewing the first of such CD's, and will publish my report very soon.
Constantine Soo Dagogo |
Hmm, when I first saw this post's subject, I thought it was going to touch upon Redbook vs. SACD vs. DVD-A vs. ???
Is it time for a better resolution (and theoretically sounding) format to surpass Redbook? Will there be enough sourced program material? Certainly home PCs, DVD drives and software today can store the bandwidth necessary to make a Squeeze-like box to handle these hi-rez formats. My big question is, do I keep adding to my 25 year old Redbook CD collection (and I do still have all my vinyl) or start picking up SACDs or DVD-As or the next audiophile format? Then, geez, how much will good enough hardware cost to playback the "new" formats? BTW, I have an Underwood modded Music Hall 25.2 CDP and a VPI Scout with Dynavctor 10X5 just to give you an idea what level my sources are.
So when will Redbook be passe? |
Amen to that, the subject is'nt new, but very relevant to all of us. That is in terms of supporting the format with expensive hardware. I am sure CD is more under threat than vinyl, which has become the default Audiophile choice. As with vinyl, there is going to be so many CD's, both new and used, around for so many years, I am sure it is worth buying top hardware still. Putting money where my mouth is, my GNSC modded Opus 21 should be landing soon. For Jazz and Classical fans, there will be CDs aplenty around for 30 years, if the format closed up today. It is more of an issue in keeping up with new artists. I suspect they will be download based in 5 years. |
Tennis,
I assume then, that you are checking out of this thread, because any further comment on your part will divert you from listening to CDs instead of talking about them and that would undermine your logic. |
Audiogoners are more polite towards each other and tolerant of differing opinions than participants of other online forums, and I enjoy just being here. I think the Audiogon Staff also deserves credit for their vigilance in keeping this space free of offensive or combative messages.
That said, I look forward to the day when everyone feels equally appreciative towards what we have in these spaces, so that we wouldn't need Audiogon's Staff to do the peacekeeping work.
Constantine Soo |
" If you are not interested in the thread, just don't read/post."
Seems like a real simple concept to ALMOST everyone. |
Why all the complaints about the relevence/utility of this and other threads? If you are not interested in the thread, just don't read/post. What, are you worried about hard disk space of the Audiogon servers? |
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given the choice of opining on the life span of cds, i would rather listen to them. think of all the time spent discussing this topic, which could be better spent listening to music. |
Snofun3, thank you very much for the welcome. I look forward to exchanging more ideas with you.
Constantine |
I have to agree with Snofun3. There is no reason why this is not a legitimate topic for a forum. Tennis, do you know that today is the 100th anniversary of the birth of the vacuum tube? In 1975, when transistors and solid state represented the next big trend in audio, a thread could have appeared asking if and when vacuum tubes would be passe! In retrospect, it turns out that vacuum tubes are still very viable. History often reserves judgement on issues that may seem clear cut to us today. |
Nothing wrong being a newbee, one only gets to be one a few times in his lifetime, and each time it is a precious experience. Yes?
Constantine Soo Dagogo
No doubt you're welcomed aboard, and all look forward to your insights. |
With all this pontificating about downloads and Squeezeboxes and such, there is one thing EVERYONE is forgetting: CDs are *portable*. I can take one with me and play it at everyone's house or in their car. You cannot do that with a Squeezebox, or vinyl, or anything else out there today.
CDs will not die as long as the players are still being offered in every automobile...
-RW- |
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein |
Nothing wrong being a newbee, one only gets to be one a few times in his lifetime, and each time it is a precious experience. Yes?
Constantine Soo Dagogo |
"and no one should think he is smarter or dumber than the next Audiogoner".
We can see you're a newbee. |
Let's keep the discussion an inspiring and educational one, and just state our opinion on subject matters and not insult others for theirs. We all have equal rights to voice our viewpoints, and no one should think he is smarter or dumber than the next Audiogoner, although a little dosage of caffeine is known to boost one's confidence in his own stupidity...
Constantine Soo Dagogo |
David, I love my cd player. But, I am looking for a viable computer-based solution also. I have been reading the forums here for alternatives. Some sound very interesting. I am going to study the different offering over the next 12 months before I make my move. I will still purchase cd's as a music source, my cd player may be on its way out if I can find a high quality sounding computer based system. |
For me the death of cd has been exaggerated (like most of you I am at the consumer level; however, if I worked in the music recording/distribution industry I might have a different opinion). I have had my squeezebox for about a year. I love the convenience and think the sound quality of the stock unit (with a linear ps) is amazing. Surely THE most revolutionary audio value this century. I recently added an outboard DAC, a brand new DAC1 from Benchmark. A noticable improvement...but...around the same time i purchased a Marantz SA15S1. Performed lots of listening tests (sb3 transport, SA15 trasport, SA15 redbook SA15 SACD, different cables). Long story short, the Marantz outclassed the best sound I could get from the DAC1. I returned the DAC1, and decided to sell the SA15, in order to purchase a new Marantz SA11. I know the DAC1 is not the end all be all of DAC's, but it does represent near state of the art at its price point. I bought the DAC1 to push this issue of going totally wireless network server based music. In the end I fell in love again with cd's. I like the notion of playing an album, instead of frantic song by song point and click thru the music server (that's what has happened to me with the SB3...listening to whole albums faded out) I started looking at my liner notes again. I started buying more cd's. I still love the squeezebox for what it is, but for me the network player thing is simply another method to hear music. For that it's wonderful, but (to wrap up), whatever fate awaits cd's means very little to me. I know I love them and will continue to seek them out, good and bad in the years to come, and when/if my favorite artists no longer record to cd, i'm sure the next big thing will be just fine. |
Mrtennis....if this thread holds no interest for you, you are certainly welcome to look elsewhere on Audiogon for something that you feel that is worth discussing. |
and that is when?....that was I think, the original question... |
first, what is the utility of opinions on this subject ?
second, if you cannot solve a problem, why waste time discussing it ?
why not accept it and discuss a topic which is more relevant to the enjoyment of listening to music in one's home ?
Did I miss the thread where Mr Tennis was crowned the arbiter of what are the important topics to be discussed?
So I take it Tennis will propose the next relevant topic?
What a blowhard. |
I think that the death of CD is sooner than you think. I just sold my very good player (Esoteric X-01 Limited), since it didn't have a digital input. As far as Im concerned, it will be a doorstop fairly soon. I've shifted to a computer-based solution. Since I've had it set up for all of 12 hours, it's a little early to make any predictions based on this experience, but I will anyway. From a convenience standpoint alone, it far surpasses CD and kills vinyl. At my dealer, his setup was superior to his CDP, through a very good and well set-up system. When higher-res downloads become more readily available, CD's are doomed.
Davidf Shapiro |
So what determines a problem cannot be solved? mrtennis-the arbiter of all things nebulous?
Will not discussing it determine if there is a solution?
Did I waste time in philosophy class?
Why am I even answering this?
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If one day the demand for CDs has dropped so much that all studios, record companies and pressing plants decided to stop producing CDs altogether, then all of us will have no choice but to adopt the prevalent format of the day.
In hindsight, even though vinyl is no longer supported by major labels, an astronomical number of LPs continues to be available on Audiogon and eBay for any novice collector to build up a substantial library of collections. The same will happen to CDs, too.
In addition, the more optimistic of me believes that companies of the high-end audio industry will continue to produce superlative-sounding CD players at increasing affordable price points, as long as we are still around.
Constantine Soo DAGOGO |
I find myself agreeing with Mrtennis.
Frightening. |
Hello Seasoned, thank you for your comment. I believe the notion of fitting a Beethoven 9th into the Compact Disc medium was championed by the late Herbert von Karajan, the conductor.
On the diameter of the CD, I read about the "cassette tape" story from an overseas audio magazine in the late 80's, and it has been in my mind ever since.
Constantine Soo Dagogo |
hi s7horton:
i think that by questioning the importance of the question :
"how many years before cd's become passe?"
i raise two issues.
first, what is the utility of opinions on this subject ?
second, if you cannot solve a problem, why waste time discussing it ?
it is obvious that audiogon members cannot prevent the demise of the cd, if that is its ultimate fate. why not accept it and discuss a topic which is more relevant to the enjoyment of listening to music in one's home ? |
At least until uncompressed music files are widely available online, at a reasonable price. We are far away from that. I think some sort of physical medium will be around for a long time if only to serve the half of the world that does not access to high speed internet.
I also think that DRM is going to really hold down the growth of online downloads. It is just too restrictive. I won't buy anything with DRM.
I just wish we could move to a better quality level than the CD, but I don't see that happening. |
the future = digital storage, no moving parts (CDs are history) |
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I think CDs will be around for awhile, simply because so many people have so much of their music on CDs. Also, as others have previously mentioned, it seems that some manufacterers are realize this and are making better sounding players. Before people count CDs out, remember how years went by with people saying "vinyl is dead"? As we all know, the last couple of years there as been a big interest and re-surgeents in "vinyl". Now granted the "general public" will be content with the "quanity over quality" of whatever format (MP3) that allows them collect huge amount of music, most of which they probably won't listen more than nano-second. But for those of us, who care, we'll either be listening to vinyl, or if we have CDs, listening to them on better players with upgraded DACs, transports, ect. |
I would say about ten years ago. That is when I dumped my crappy sounding cd collection and hence bagan a triumphant return to vinyl. |
How many more years before cd's become passe?
Passe to whom? Audiophiles? Probably a long time. Average college and high school student? The time has come.
When the time comes for you, are you going to get rid of all your CD's? I know many audiophiles who are kicking themselves lately because they dumped their vinyl when this new perfect medium came along.
Constantinesoo: I have always been under the impression that the diameter of a CD was based upon being able to fit all 72 minutes of Beethoven's 9th on the disc. I have read this more than once; your reason is a new one on me.
Seasoned... |
Tennis, I question the value of your post. |
The diameter of a CD equals the diagonal width of a cassette tape. I remember reading about the invention of CD many years ago: The president of Philips or some department head was asked by his staff on what size the new disc should be in; he picked up a cassette tape by its diagonal corners, and the rest is history.
I, too, have invested substantially into my CD-based digital front-end, as well as a precious music library. I don't intend to spend another ten years and another fortune on yet another new format to replace my music, especially when many of them are personal "indispensables" and were of negligible commercial success during the original releases, thus will unlikely be reprinted in any format, and I suspect many audiophiles share this sentiment and have certain such discs in their collections.
Some CD player manufacturers are aware of this sentiment, thus producing progressively more advanced and better-sounding CD players for us. CD players are sounding better and better at continuously lower price points, and I don't doubt that in a few years something will come along sounding superior to my 47 Lab PiTracer.
The big question is whether CD will still be the viable and preferred format of a good majority when that happens.
Constantine Soo Dagogo |