How much do I need to spend to get a preamp that sounds better than no preamp?
Wow I just read the meat of this thread and I can't believe the people dishing out the crap to kosst!! He's right and the rest of you are wrong. He built and owns one of Nelson's products and loves it so I think we can rest assured he does not hate the man and is not slandering him. And I 100% agree I would much rather have an amplifier with 15 DB of gain then with 30. |
Oppo Tech, et al when I come off full volume on tmy 105 either the bits are dropping, or the VC is too sensitive as the result is loss of damn near everything. I am hoping that the Hattor will solve that problem, and it is a problem As to the extra I/Os with the Hattor, I think any that not being used are out of the signal path, but I will only be using 2 outs at the most. Still working on solving the opposite problem with my SVS servo subs (volume comes on too quickly) . Maybe a buffer is needed, or maybe SVS servo sub tech sucks. Thinking I might need to get passive subs and use an outboard amp/s Nord makes an interesting integrated (I am now jonesing for their amp),. Imagine that with LDRs |
I installed a Hattor XLR late Friday. It took about an hour to begin sounding good, and maybe just now has hit its sweet spot. It certainly solved most of the problems driving the 105 direct. It has a lot more VC control, in addition to a significantly reduced noise floor and a much bigger sound stage. I was surprised by how much bass was missing from the 105 direct to amps. If your budget is in the ~ $1000 range, I highly recommend it, BUT, it is such a microscope that it will expose lessor kit in your system. After a day with a Cullen power cord and PS Audio XLRs, I switched to Surf Cables XLRs (great audio bargain) and WireWorld PC. These significantly warmed up the sound. Pretty sure my Emerald Physics class D 100.2 SE amps need replacing now. Guessing the chips are 2-3 generations old. |
@tweak1 I read your other post and looked at the manufacturer's site. It's pretty obvious that it's being buffered. Given the heatsinks, the constant input impedance, and the fact it takes an hour+ to warm up, it's certainly got active devices in the signal path. Passives don't have parts that warm up or need heatsinks. |
Not that I know anything about the Hatter, but I might ask where is the line we draw for the definition of "passive". After all, even a volume control is a resister, and thus, buffered in a sense (I know that's not buffered). Components besides thinking of it as just straight nothing. We have interconnect cables we plug in, or have batteries. But we don't consider them active. |
@kosst_amojan @tweak1I always scratch my head at "passives" with big heatsinks.@tweak1 I always scratch my head at people that have zero clue about business. Maybe look up economies of scale. Just saying... 😉 |
Posted this up on the wrong thread, it was meant to be here. These are two Hattor’s. Passive, which I believe you have, which what looks to be Kozmho switched volume control, which I believe is a fixed series resistor and variable ones to ground, which will vary it’s i/o impedance’s at different volume levels, best to me is ladder ones, where the series and shunt resistors work in opposites to each other to give a more constant I/O impedance https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145833.0 And the active buffered Hattor which used an opamp. http://mockingbirddistribution.mockingbirddistr.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Hattor-Min... Here are some different ways of doing a volume control, quad matched ldr is a ladder https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/uploads/monthly_2018_06/Capture.JPG.93bbd2ce49060300b06abfd1a62ce8f... Just found their site, they have an extensive range, of what looks to be well made products, including a tube one http://www.hattor.com/index2.html#ultimate Cheers George |
Another soap box rant, a blind man can see the fins are there for looks, they look a lot better than a plain square box. http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151232 Cheers George |
@georgehifi No joke! I'm pretty sure that's what I said, isn't it? I'm pointing out the foolishness in the assertion that any economy of scale has anything to do with some superfluous heatsinks, especially when their amps have sinks made from custom extrusion dies that not only aren't designed to do their job most effectively, but say the name of the brand in the profile view. I'm pretty sure their not doing that to make it sound better, move more heat, or cut the cost. |
I’m pretty sure that’s what I said, isn’t it?No you were putting ****on the fins, and I wasn’t. I like the fins, as I said " they look a lot better than a plain square box."!!!! http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151232 Geesh!#! read first, think, pause, then react. |
Clicking on the links provided, looks like really cool stuff. Well executed, sensible options, and nicely made. BTW- extrusions are pretty cheap. Maybe the most cost effective way to build a stiff, non-ferrous box. The designs strikes me as "smart" looking at the pics, like a guy who knows what he is doing and also knows where to source materiels. |
mrdecibelBy all means Flick me a PM with your email address listing your components, and I'll send you all the relative info on the Lightspeed Attenuator, even a diy circuit if you've got the electronic skills and test gear. If all the impedance's and good, 90% of systems are, I guarantee you'll never look at an active pre the same way again. Cheers George |
George , I tried to PM you, w/o success. If you could PM me, that would be great. I have had a few passives, but none were exceptional. The particular room and system I would be using it in would be : CD, mostly redbook, modified Sony SACD player, into a modified Adcom GDA 700 D/A converter, into a Nuforce STA 200 amp. I might use my modified Klipsch Lascalas, but have a pair of modified Heresy IIs, with some subs. I believe the Adcom into the Nuforce would be " ideal " together. Enjoy, MrD. |
all I could find on the Baxandall was math and schematics. What good is that?Pretty good if you want one and no-one sells one. You just have to find someone to make it. We can do stuff like that, but as a one-off it might not look at that great. It has a lot more VC control, in addition to a significantly reduced noise floor and a much bigger sound stage. I was surprised by how much bass was missing from the 105 direct to amps.Yup. The difference between passive and active right there. |
George , I tried to PM you, w/o success. If you could PM me,Done. Looked it all up, and your right to go for the Lightspeed in this system. Your Adcom with 78ohm output impedance at 2.1v is a perfect match. Your Nuforce at 51kohm input impedance with 0.45v input sensitivity for full output, is also perfect. As you can see you only need 0.45v into your amp to give it's full wattage output, and you have 2.1v from your source, so you don't need an active preamp adding more gain. Remember what Nelson Pass said.
Cheers George |
kosst_amojanYou have totally lost it, or your on your second bottle, that quote is NOT from Nelsons active preamp, but from his stance on passive preamps. Here ’s the whole thing, once again for the aggro one.
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Less than 2k. Try “AM Audio”, state of art building, perfect matching and quality selected components, no capacitors into sound routing, dual mono, dual power supply, quality strong metal construction, gold-plated pcb... just volume and input scope of preamplifier is not to sound but to adjust impedance and normalize gain, bringing the signal, as it is, from source to the amplifier.. for this reason couldn’t be passive and has not “to sound”but just to bring the sound as a diligent steward.. it should be enough expensive to ensure building at top quality rating but not so expensive more than a good source or amplifier, if not we are going to revert the sense of things... |
@georgehifi The following is copied directly from passdiy.com, projects section, B1 buffer preamp. AN ACTIVE PRE-AMP! Care to actually cite his published "stance on passive pre-amps"? What you're calling "his stance" is word for word what he wrote in his article for the B1 buffer. No doubt you cherry pick the article and mischaracterize the man's opinion because further down he refutes the case you try to make. So I say again... It's ridiculous to quote an article for an active pre-amp to bolster the rational for a passive. Project Categories ListAmplifiersPreamplifiersB1 Buffer Preamp Nelson Pass Introduction Side A So here we are in the New Millennium, and thanks to Tom Holman and THX we’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more. Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up. Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control. What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection. And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp. I suppose if I had to floor the accelerator to drive 55 mph, maybe I’d think the life was being sucked out of my driving. Then again, maybe I like 55. Nice and safe, good gas mileage… Is impedance matching an issue? Passive volume controls do have to make a trade-off between input impedance and output impedance. If the input impedance is high, making the input to the volume control easy for the source to drive, then the output impedance is also high, possibly creating difficulty with the input impedance of the power amplifier. And vice versa: If your amplifier prefers low source impedance, then your signal source might have to look at low impedance in the volume control. This suggests the possibility of using a high quality buffer in conjunction with a volume control. A buffer is still an active circuit using tubes or transistors, but it has no voltage gain – it only interposes itself to make a low impedance into a high impedance, or vice versa. If you put a buffer in front of a volume control, the control’s low impedance looks like high impedance. If you put a buffer after a volume control, it makes the output impedance much lower. You can put buffers before and after a volume control if you want. The thing here is to try to make a buffer that is very neutral. Given the simple task, it’s pretty easy to construct simple buffers with very low distortion and noise and very wide bandwidth, all without negative feedback. There are lots of different possibilities for buffers, but we are going to pick my favorite: |
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I'm not trolling, you can stalk me all you like, you "try" to present facts your way, and I'll do them my way, with whoever/whatever proof I have.George, sorry, you're not fooling me. Endlessly spouting the same thing over and over, especially when you know you are leaving out important facts, is one way trolling is defined! The result of trolling is that someone has to correct your misrepresentation- and then we go on and on, around and around. That's classic trolling. If you are such an admirer of Nelson then don't make it as if he is saying something he isn't. That seems disrespectful to me at the very least. |
Did not read this thread but here is my 2 cents. I am going to buy the BENCHMARK HPA4 HEADPHONE / LINE AMPLIFIER unheard and unseen (just released). I already have the Benchmark AHB2 amp. I will buy 1 more of these amps to run in mono mode, I will use this new volume control to connect to the amps which will power KEF Blade speakers. I have been trying to figure out a way to run without a preamp and this maybe the way to achieve this without relying on a DAC with a volume control.. |
yyzsantabarbara Hi yyzsantabarbara, just be aware when you bridge a stereo amp into mono, yes do do gain a lot more watts, but that’s where the advantages end, and the disadvantages start. 1: There is more distortion. 2: Lower damping factor (higher output resistance) which equates to less control in the bass. 3: Less ability to drive lower impedance’s of some speakers (maybe the Kef’s 3.2ohm in the bass.) To me if your single Ahb2 has enough watts for you to drive the Kef Blade, which aren’t that hard to drive at 3.2ohm min at 90db and a benign -phase angle, it will probably sound better than two bridged ones. If not I would look at another amp/s without doing any bridging. Cheers George |
I'll put a vote in for the Second Edition Ambrosia preamp from SST: https://www.sst.audio/new-products/ambrosia-2000-second-edition This is a new and improved version of James Bongiorno's first edition Ambrosia. James always believed in giving the customer a lot of functionality at a reasonable price. This preamp has tone controls, MC and MM phono inputs with low cut filters, tape loops, headphone jacks, many inputs, and now a home theater bypass input! The volume control has 96 steps, 1db/step and there is a remote control with a big volume control knob. I've been running the Ambrosia Second Edition for a few weeks now and I am very happy with it. The preamp is very quiet. You can set a jumper in the unit to lower the gain by 14dB which helps lower your noise floor. This is good for people like myself who don't play loud. Check it out. |
“The result of trolling is that someone has to correct your misrepresentation- and then we go on and on, around and around. That's classic trolling.” george, you’re clearly a knowledgeable person and have a lot to contribute and can obviouly say whatever you want but this sort of behavior tends to damage your credibility, if you actually care. You accuse others with a vast technical experience in the field for expressing their opinion for personal gains and one could argue the same for your opinion and your passive attenuators. Not a productive approach to exchange knowledge. And no, I’m not stalking you, just seem to keep running into the same thread and reading the same arguments. |
