I owned Aerial 7B speakers, and drove them with a Bryston 4B SST, Bryston 14B SST, and VAC Phi 110/110. In all cases, I thought the speakers remained on the "bright" side and lacked sufficient bass to balance the top end. While you say you like the Butler/Aerial combination, the Aerials have a pretty wild impedance curve. John Atkinson write in his measurements section of the Stereophile review: Its plot of impedance magnitude and phase against frequency (fig.1) revealed the 7B to be a moderately demanding load, with a nominal value in the midrange and bass closer to 4 ohms than the specified 6 ohms. These speakers are best driven by an amp that doubles power output as impedance is halved...so that the volume in the bass is equal to the volume in the mids and highs. Your Butler 2250 does not double power as impedance is halved. Specifications: Rated Power (all channels driven): 2 x 250 Watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms 2 x 400 Watts RMS per channel @ 4 ohms 1 x 800 Watts RMS Bridged (Mono) @ 8 ohms The result is that the amp produces somewhat louder volume in the highs than it does in the bass, which causes a tonal imbalance that emphasizes the highs. IMO, your amp/speaker match is not optimal. The tile and glass in your room exacerbates the problem, so as others have mentioned, some room treatment will be beneficial. |
As long as an amp produces more decibels into higher impedances (treble region) than into lower impedances (bass region), the speaker will sound louder in the treble.
The Butler 2250 has plenty of power to drive the 84db speakers to room filling volume, but that's not the issue, IMO. |
Thus far, I'm the only one participating here other than the OP who has owned Aerial 7B loudspeakers. I can relate completely with his observations. My Aerial 7B speakers *never* sounded laid back. Not even close.
My listening room is carpeted, with full length drapes, overstuffed furniture, and treatments on the rear walls.
Sometimes I wonder if those of us who make such diverse observations about a given product (e.g., the Stereophile reviewers) are listening to the same device. |
08-08-09: Gregfisk
...if I add another 2250 this would give me better tonal balance? No, the tonal balance would remain the same. Or, do I get a different pair of speakers? Not necessarily. However, if you do get a different set of speakers, you should find some that have a flatter impedance curve if you intend to keep the Butler 2250. Look, the proof is in the listening. We all can debate here for days and days. It's very easy to test my theory of improving tonal balance using an amplifier that doubles power as impedance is halved. All that is required is for you to buy one of several amplifiers (that double power as impedance is halved), that are available with 30 day home trials. Try the amp and listen for better tonal balance. If you hear improvements, then you know you're headed in the right direction. You can always return the amp for a refund and look for another amp with similar power output capabilities. A few possibilities: Wyred 4 Sound ST Series, Ice H2O Audio S250 (or its monoblock cousin), Bel Canto Reference S500 (or its monoblock cousin), Pass Labs XA-.5 series, Portal Audio Panache. It's really a no-lose proposition. |
I recall Tvad once mentioning that he had an Atmasphere at one point, and perhaps that is what prompted his comment.
Regards,
-- Al
Almarg (Answers) No. Not in the case of the Aerial 7B loudspeakers. For more info regarding the concept I am trying unsuccessfully to describe, I refer those interested to chapters 6 and 15 of Robert Harley's "The Complete Guide to High End Audio". So, here you have a list of solutions to your problem from many intelligent and well intentioned contributors that includes: Room treatments Speaker set-up Changing source components Changing preamp Changing amplifier Changing wire The truth is that the solution is likely a combination of the above. Isnt high end audio fun?! |
08-08-09: Gregfisk
I'm wondering if I tried a tube dac like a Havana if this would calm things down. It would likely affect the sound by softening the highs slightly and emphasizing the mids (depending on the tube installed), but you'd be removing resolution that your speakers are intended to convey (along with your preamp and amp), and you'd be masking an inherent system problem that would be better solved than band-aided, IMO. |
A few clarifications to remarks made by Blindjim about my suggestions.
First, my "well meaning but abbreviated listing of proposed areas" was not my personal list, but a combined list of suggestions proposed by contributors up to that point in this thread. It was done to illustrate the many viewpoints about the problem, and I closed that post by saying the solution likely rested in a combination of several, if not all the suggestions.
Second, my repeated recommendation of *trying* an amp that doubles down power output is not based on the massive amounts of watts per channel (as I have previously stated). It has nothing to do with being a power hound. The well regarded Portal Panache that I suggested has only 100wpc into 8 ohms and 200wpc into 4 ohms (and it's inexpensive on the used market at around $750). The other amps I mentioned do have a significant amount of power output, but that wasn't the criteria for their selection (which was their ability to double down power output, and the availability of a home trial period).
Third, I suggested the OP try an amp that doubles down power simply to hear if doing so made an improvement in his speaker's tonal balance. Bass volume in balance with treble volume will mitigate perceived brightness (but it won't make a revealing tweeter or midrange more forgiving of what's upstream...another issue all together).
Perhaps I should have been more specific, but the intention was for the OP to try the experiment first, and then use what he learned to seek an amp (or to *not* seek an amp if he perceived no difference in the speakers) with the sound characteristics he preferred. Without question, several of the amps I listed have variations in their sound. I wrote, "If you hear improvements, then you know you're headed in the right direction. You can always return the amp for a refund and look for another amp with similar power output capabilities." And I should have added "and different sonic characteristics".
Fourth, my list of is comprised only of those available with home trial periods, with the idea of keeping down the cost of the experiment to just the cost of shipping.
Finally, I don't claim that the amp solution is the only solution, or that it's the best solution, but in my experience it has proven to be a valid solution.
Having owned the Aerial 7B speakers, and having looked at the speaker's impedance test measurements from John Atkinson, and having looked at the output specs of the Butler 2250, I believe the amp/speaker combination is a worthwhile avenue to investigate, and I've attempted to offer some options to minimize the cost.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Almarg -
I'm not disagreeing with your discussion of low output impedance. However, in rereading Harley's discussion of power output into varying impedance loads, and the resulting loudspeakers' varying dbW (decibel watts) measurements, he makes no mention of low output impedance negating the effect. Perhaps this is an issue of voltage paradigm versus current paradigm?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Gregfisk, you might try tilting your speakers back a bit so the tweeters are firing slightly up rather than straight at your listening position. Also, you might try placing the speakers on platforms so the tweeters are above ear level. |
Al, I suggest that you do not exclude the possibility that anything he says of a technical nature may be flat-out wrong.
Best,
-- Al
Almarg (Answers) On the other hand, we can also not exclude the possibility that he is right. In the acknowledgments section of his book, Harley thanks several experts in specific fields of audio who provided technical review of his manuscript. I am going to take the viewpoint that they know their fields, and that therefore the information provided in the book has been determined to be correct. ------------------------------------------------------------- Blindjim, TVAD
My statement regarding your truncated list of options is quite valid, nonetheless. It didnt contain all of the avenues listed herein to that point
. Merely those paths and people you felt were more appropriate to the mix. The list was intended to illustrate the wide range of suggestions to one problem. It was not intended as a comprehensive resource. I did not intentionally include only the avenues I felt were appropriate in an attempt to diminish the contributions of others, as you suggest. I agree with you in general about restocking fees. It's up to each individual to decide if the cost of shipping and a possible re-stocking fee is worth the price of an in-home trial. I believe there's no substitute for listening to a component in one's system prior to buying, so for me the cost of shipping and a restocking fee can be worthwhile. When I had the opportunity to home-trial the Pass Labs XA-30.5 amplifier, I gladly agreed to accept a possible 10% restocking fee in the event of a return. For me, the ability to hear what that amp could do in my system was well worth the price of admission. My present ownership of Pass Labs, SMc Audio, and my prior ownership of Moscode products were all results of in-home trials. In-home trials have also afforded me the opportunity to audition Audio Horizons, NuForce, and CI Audio products. Only CI Audio, and the Pass Labs dealer charged a re-stocking fee, and I paid it in both instances (the XA-30.5 was returned because a used pair of XA-60.5 became available during the third week of the demo). The Portal Panache is available with a *60* day home trial, and there is no restocking fee mentioned on the Portal Audio home audition policy page. While there are no specifics of the Ice H20 Audio home audition policy on the H20 Audio website, I doubt Henry Ho (owner of Ice H20 Audio) would charge a restocking fee. He's happy to have more people hear his components. Those who believe the cost of shipping and restocking is too high to allow experimentation should definitely look at other alternatives. There is no sure-fire, cost-free method to solving the OP's brightness problem (the most common complaint in Audiogon threads). If there was, we'd all be doing just that one thing and these threads would be really, really short. |
When lifting my speakers up, are there some general rules to follow? Do I use wood covered in carpet, concrete, how high do I lift them ect?
Gregfisk (Answers) You'll receive a lot of good suggestions and techniques to try. I have used 1" threaded, brass spike footers, Sistrum SP-101 platforms that allow height adjustment from about 1" to nearly 8", and presently I use 2" thick maple platforms flat on the carpet and with no spikes on the speakers. In my room with my nearfield listening position, raising the speakers by 2" has proven beneficial, and simply raising the speakers seems to have made a more consistently positive difference than has the type of device used to raise them. |
Blindjim, I'll answer your questions here, and then I'm signing off because our dialogue is veering off topic, IMO. So, here goes. First, my suggestion was to home audition an amp that doubles down power to hear if it makes any difference to the OP in his system. The intention of the recommendation was to audition *one* amp, and I offered a few possibilities to consider. Then, depending on what he hears, proceed from there utilizing whatever method he finds appealing and financially suitable. How is your own cabling, conditioning, and power cord situation, BTW? Still using OEM pcs and entry level or DIY cabling? How about platforms and those aluminum cup & ball (Oreos?) footers? Power cords: BMI Hammerhead MK II (UX-3Pi), Tekline Reference PC (preamp), Oyaide Tunami GPX power cables (amps, digital transport) Interconnects: Purist Audio Venustas RCA ICs, Gabriel Gold Revelation II ICs, Oyaide PA-02 balanced ICs Speaker Cabling: Gregg Straley Reality Cables bi-wire speaker cable with jumpers AC/Power Conditioning: Two 20A dedicated AC lines with Hubbell Port Port outlets, Environmental Potentials EP-2050 whole house AC filter/surge suppressor, Alan Maher Designs Reference Power Center V2, (5) Alan Maher Designs PE filters placed on circuits throughout the house Stands/Platforms/Isolation/Coupling: Sistrum SP-101 stands under amplifiers, Timberation 2 maple platforms under speakers, Neuance isolation shelf for UX-3Pi, Grand Prix Audio Apex footers under preamp and Transporter digital source I recalled you saying frequently some years ago Everything matters. Has your position on that changed now? No. My position has not changed, and I stated the concept earlier in this thread where I wrote, "The truth is that the solution is likely a combination of the above.": So, here you have a list of solutions to your problem from many intelligent and well intentioned contributors that includes:
Room treatments
Speaker set-up
Changing source components
Changing preamp
Changing amplifier
Changing wire
The truth is that the solution is likely a combination of the above.
Isn't high end audio fun?!
Tvad (Threads | Answers) However, in my experience some things matter more than others, and I believe the amp/speaker match ranks at the top of the list. Best of luck to the OP in his quest for a solution. It's out there. |
|
You can only do so much to make vanilla taste like chocolate. In the end, you have to buy chocolate if you want to taste chocolate.
I think you should:
1) Hire Rives Audio to consult with you on your room and how it can be acoustically treated.
If you can't acoustically treat the glass and tile room, and if you can't set up your listening area in another room that lends itself to treatments, then you're going to have to be willing to accept sub optimal sound (which includes "brightness").
2) Change speakers. It's an oxymoron to say you like your speaker/amp combination, but you don't like the bright sound of your system.
The 7B speakers sounded bass shy in my 21x24x8 carpeted and draped room when driven by a 500wpc Bryston beast known for its bass reproduction. I can imagine how anemic they must sound in a 22x38x17 glass and tile room.
You require a prodigious amount of midbass and low bass to balance out the highs in your large room, and the smallish woofers on the 7B speakers aren't going to get the job done.
Sorry to be so blunt, but I believe you see the realities even if you're not yet prepared to take the necessary steps to get you where you want to go. Spend your dollars where they will be most effective: room, speakers, amplifier. |
