How to fix my detailed, accurate but BRIGHT system

Gregfisk

Quick Q: Did this brightness issue start only after adding the Butler amp, or has it always been lean clean, and bright sounding? If so, you have your answer on the amp not being the culprit.

Ever wonder how many amps are out there which do not double their outputs when the load impedance is halved? A bunch.

Ever wonder too, why the owners of these amps aren’t lineing up posting about top end brightness?

Did this system you have ever sound otherwise than it does now? Exactly when did this brightness clear and clean non musical adventure first rear up it’s head noticeably? I’d look there then.

I’d bet good money to or with whomever, the items I noted above if addressed, would remedy that fatiguing sound you are encountering, without undertaking wholesale component change outs. Of course you’ll find out when another amp is employed. maybe.

AS Tvad says repeatedly do ensure the ??? amp doubles its power when the imp of the loudspeakers is halved though. Considering any other sort which does not is just time well wasted… or so it seems. Such advice will surely narrow the field of amps to look into for your needs. Given the Butler's output, start with those in the 400 wpc @ 4 Ohms... and up, as you already have that on tap.

Never mind the voice of the amp… or associated gear, setup and cabling, it’s simply always the power aspect.

It’s funny the notes of system fixes follow the trends of their posters. Gear houhnds point to the gear as the bug a boos, room treatment aficionados’ allude respectively to adding items there, cable mavens exclaim buy better wires, etc. well, to each their own aim. And after all, it’s only money.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with those approaches or philosophies, I just feel all of the rig needs careful scrutiny, not merely the stuff you rest on the rack or a shhelf.

it might be as simple as one said the spikes or footers of the 7Bs... or their need for a platform of sorts.

Putting another engine into a car that has bad brakes, a slipping transmission, and or poor suspension, only remedies motor problems.

The thing which confounds me here is I’ve never heard anyone remark the 7Bs were aggressive in their upper ends. Never. This is a first for me… so in fact I’m going on their popularity and no mentions of their so apparent shortcomings. I know that Butler isn’t contributing adversely to the situation too.

FYI
* Hand selected/matched 6SL7GT Twin Triode tubes
(One per channel)
• Fully regulated Tube Heaters with Delayed Soft Start
(10-15 second turn-on delay)
• Load Adaptive Vacuum Tube Driven output circuitry
• Modular power channels with a seperate massive, oversized heatsink for each channel
Independent AC Secondaries and Rectifiers
with 60,000µF per channel filtering

SPECS
• Rated Power (all channels driven):
2 x 250 Watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms
2 x 400 Watts RMS per channel @ 4 ohms
1 x 800 Watts RMS Bridged (Mono) @ 8 ohms
• Freq response: 20Hz to 20kHz (+/- 0.5dB)
Power Bandwidth: -3dB, 50kHz
• THD: <0.10% @ 8 Ohms, <0.15% @ 4 Ohms
• S/N Ratio: Better than 120dB (A-Wtd)
• Slew Rate: 15v/µsec
• Input Sensitivity: 2V for 250 Watts into 8 Ohms
• Input Impedance: 47k Ohms

400 wpc into 4 ohms!

If that’s not enough power for the 7Bs, maybe other speakers or as said, another amp is needed, depending on which one of those two is the newer or more desired. Personally the 7Bs could be more easily improved upon IMO.

Anything is possible I guess. The Aerials may just hate the Butler or vice versa.

Despite Tvad's well meaning but abreviated listing of proposed areas to find possible avenues for a resolution, I made mention of my own listings as the result of my own exp... and found out about it the hardest way imaginable, by spending money that did not need spending, had I looked into the system as just that a system. The sum of it's parts all working together to perform properly and provide enjoyment for the owner.

The underlying caveat here and elsewhere has always been, "Everything matters, and everthing makes a difference."

Perhaps it has changed now.

I do pray your issue is resolved quickly and without more frustration or length.

It’s funny the notes of system fixes follow the trends of their posters. Gear houhnds point to the gear as the bug a boos, room treatment aficionados’ allude respectively to adding items there, cable mavens exclaim buy better wires, etc. well, to each their own aim.

LOL! Interesting observation, Jim. I suppose that a reason for that is that it's hard "at a distance" to have a feel for the DEGREE of excess brightness, and if everyone had first-hand exposure to the sound, opinions would probably be more convergent.

BTW, re Wireless200's comments, I want to make sure it is clear that I did not mean in my earlier posts to totally rule out the possibility of the amp as being a contributor to the brightness, and I don't disagree with Tvad's assertion that "these speakers are best driven by an amp that doubles power output as impedance is halved."

What I was saying essentially was that assuming the amp has low output impedance, the following is incorrect (aside from the first sentence):

Your Butler 2250 does not double power as impedance is halved.... The result is that the amp produces somewhat louder volume in the highs than it does in the bass, which causes a tonal imbalance that emphasizes the highs....

As long as an amp produces more decibels into higher impedances (treble region) than into lower impedances (bass region), the speaker will sound louder in the treble.

Regards,
-- Al

A few clarifications to remarks made by Blindjim about my suggestions.

First, my "well meaning but abbreviated listing of proposed areas" was not my personal list, but a combined list of suggestions proposed by contributors up to that point in this thread. It was done to illustrate the many viewpoints about the problem, and I closed that post by saying the solution likely rested in a combination of several, if not all the suggestions.

Second, my repeated recommendation of *trying* an amp that doubles down power output is not based on the massive amounts of watts per channel (as I have previously stated). It has nothing to do with being a power hound. The well regarded Portal Panache that I suggested has only 100wpc into 8 ohms and 200wpc into 4 ohms (and it's inexpensive on the used market at around $750). The other amps I mentioned do have a significant amount of power output, but that wasn't the criteria for their selection (which was their ability to double down power output, and the availability of a home trial period).

Third, I suggested the OP try an amp that doubles down power simply to hear if doing so made an improvement in his speaker's tonal balance. Bass volume in balance with treble volume will mitigate perceived brightness (but it won't make a revealing tweeter or midrange more forgiving of what's upstream...another issue all together).

Perhaps I should have been more specific, but the intention was for the OP to try the experiment first, and then use what he learned to seek an amp (or to *not* seek an amp if he perceived no difference in the speakers) with the sound characteristics he preferred. Without question, several of the amps I listed have variations in their sound. I wrote, "If you hear improvements, then you know you're headed in the right direction. You can always return the amp for a refund and look for another amp with similar power output capabilities." And I should have added "and different sonic characteristics".

Fourth, my list of is comprised only of those available with home trial periods, with the idea of keeping down the cost of the experiment to just the cost of shipping.

Finally, I don't claim that the amp solution is the only solution, or that it's the best solution, but in my experience it has proven to be a valid solution.

Having owned the Aerial 7B speakers, and having looked at the speaker's impedance test measurements from John Atkinson, and having looked at the output specs of the Butler 2250, I believe the amp/speaker combination is a worthwhile avenue to investigate, and I've attempted to offer some options to minimize the cost.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Almarg -
I'm not disagreeing with your discussion of low output impedance. However, in rereading Harley's discussion of power output into varying impedance loads, and the resulting loudspeakers' varying dbW (decibel watts) measurements, he makes no mention of low output impedance negating the effect. Perhaps this is an issue of voltage paradigm versus current paradigm?

---------------------------------------------------------------
Gregfisk, you might try tilting your speakers back a bit so the tweeters are firing slightly up rather than straight at your listening position. Also, you might try placing the speakers on platforms so the tweeters are above ear level.

Hey Greg,

One other area that I would like to address with you is, How loud do you listen to your music?...., because, that room of yours is fricking huge; 22' x 38' with 17' ceilings.

I see that your speakers go down to approximately 35Hz, and they're down -6dB at 30Hz, which would be a nice match for a small to medium sized room, however I feel that they are probably undersized for your room. I would venture to guess that you're probably playing your system louder than expected, in order to fill your room with sound, and as you're turning up the volume to increase the bass fullness, and sound pressure levels in your room, you're further accentuating your reflective brightness and forward sound, because the bass is not holding down it's end of the bargain (pun intended).

It's certainly possible that you could add a subwoofer or two to your to do list, as this would add more bass to your room, while allowing you to play your music at a more reasonable level, without over-driving the midrange and treble.

Keep in mind that I'm no longer discussing more powerful Amps, I'm actually talking about increasing your Sound Pressure Level (SPL) in your room, by adding a subwoofer or two, or for you to consider larger floor-standing speakers for your next speaker purchase, if you should be required to go that route.

Another option, is for you to move your Aerial Speakers to another smaller room in the house.

Here is a link to Devon's thread, who also had a huge room 17' x 35' with 12' high ceilings, and when he moved his speakers to a smaller room, he was thrilled with the sound.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1247594481&openflup&1&4#1

A Smaller Room is Cheaper than Buying New Equipment.

Rich

Gregfisk

Re-reading throughout the thread I saw where you noted the Monster cables, and one other sort. Before I plunked down serious money to replace good items with other good items, I’d strongly suggest you check out just two power cords. A Voodoo Black Dragon, or a Shunyata Taipan helix VX… both of which if attached to that DAC will completely ease off the bite you are getting in the highs of your rig… both should run you under $375 or so. The VooDoo new should be a bit less.

If using the stock pc on your Butler, simply adding a sunami pc there will help too… about $170 or so.

If $$$ for ICs is an issue, the Audio Art ICs aren’t bad at $100 per pair, and for still less, the Micro pearls from Goertz are severe over achievers and were listed on Stereophile’s preferred cable list. The AA are a bit rounder sounding than the MPs. Used Pearls run around $50 or so per pair. Kimber hero might help too in the budget cable area at about $100 per pr. But I’ve not heard them.

I’d also spend $25 on some Vibra pods and put them under either the Capri or Link III.

The Cable Co. can give you more options and afford you a better perspective for a small investment, which you can recoup on any subsequent purchase.

Almarg

“… Interesting observation, Jim. I suppose that a reason for that is that it's hard "at a distance" to have a feel for the DEGREE of excess brightness, and if everyone had first-hand exposure to the sound, opinions would probably be more convergent.”

Definitely.

I so commiserated with the title:
“How to fix my detailed, accurate but BRIGHT system”
…having been in that exact spot previously, albeit with differing gear and room. Noteably gear which did not have any of those inherent characteristics, and a far smaller less reflective room!... yet the same or likewise end product was my own dilemma! It astounded me.

The ‘fix’ was some investigations into and acquisitions of, power cords, interconnects, racks, isolation, and devices which attended to signal integrity and it’s transmission, along with addressing power line artifacts and their control or suppression or elimination.

What I ultimately wound up with was the best sounding rig I’ve ever owned. One I promptly sold off a week later. lol. I did that so I could investigate another haunting auditory experience pertaining to an all tube set up. To that end, I’m not regretful… well, not much.

Personal experience has few peers. Yet my own experiences seldom emulate someone else’s identically.

My position on system formulating and tuning turns an eye towards those areas that affect the balance and voice of a rig with as much or nearly as much impact…. As do it’s major devices. Once, of course, the prime components are in place.

Another factor for me is operating without the resources that allow for wholesale interchangeability of the main parts.

So much of the gear made today is very very good, and only the flavor of it gives us possible consternation, as we go about mixing and mating a this .with a that. Barring outright poorly mixed scenarios and I don’t see this one as such; a finger pointing out causality might rest itself on those other contributing aspects of the systems entirety. Although there can be some preconceived notions which preclude thoughts pertaining to investigations of these areas, Iv’e found for a thing to be true, it doesn’t require my belief in it. It is true with or without me.

Some folks simply don’t believe accessories or peripherals amount to providing much if at all, any tangible influence to the sound or performance of their audio rig. Hanging it all onto the main players, sources, power train, and speakers.

Consequently, these non main stream areas roll along almost completely ignored by a good many. Developing technology has conjured some powerful magic into these areas since the 60s & 70s, and they all merit more thoughtfulness these days. Not to mention their costs remain usually well less than the owner’s main appliances.

I know, because I did exactly that… I ignored or devaluated the import of wiring, attendance to power line purity, acoustic treatments, and mechanical isolation. Only thru the ongoing nagging of a friend I met here did I even begin to consider all these items did I realize substantial gains, and the genie was then out of the bottle.

Hearing a lesser powerful Butler in my home recently on more stodgy and less benevolent speakers, given the 7Bs numbers, I’m pretty sure racing off after another amp might not be the most efficient move to bust right now. Nor would I suggest it as the initial one to take. Especially as the OP said he’d prefer not to as he likes the combo.

Richlane’s post made a lot of sense. Mentioning the addition of a sub or two. Great idea Richlane! AS well, moving things into a more conducive room… though I bet some thinking went into selecting it’s present location and that will likely precluding further relocation.

TVAD
It wasn’t an indictment, ya know. Sheesssh. Touch-eee!

My statement regarding your truncated list of options is quite valid, nonetheless. It didn’t contain all of the avenues listed herein to that point…. Merely those paths and people you felt were more appropriate to the mix. By so eliminating other as noteworthy and genuine efforts, you diminish them all as you confirm others. Nothing did you note about mechanical isolation, power conditioning, or possible electrical troubles being present either. You simply made up your mind as to what was or is prudent and listed it.

If you are going to preface a list of options by assigning positive accolades to those people whose options are on the list, you as well lessen those who are omitted from it.

Everyone here offers something compelling from time to time, albeit, personal exp, levity, technical expertise, or simple unforeseen or heretofore unimagined perspectives.

One other item which could be embarrassing to some, is your cavalier attitudes towards the in home trials of major components you offer as paths for solutions so regularly. It’s more than presumptuous. People who are buying, or have bought much if not all of there gear pre-owned, likely aren’t about to put up 2, 3, 4, or 5 thousand dollars for a look see in home trial which will likely include both shipping and restocking fees as well, if the item is rejected following the preview. Probably not just the $50 to $75 or more for shipping costs alone. Ask the folks at your Wyred 4 sound option if they will charge such fees…. and they do as I was recently told.

There is too the subjective position on sonic artifacts…. Is your own definition of bright, that of anothers? AS you prominately wrote you were in this thread the only other past owner of the aerial 7Bs… they weren’t owned with the same gear, or room and oh, yes, the same ears as the OP has. More importantly though, you might also indicate publicly far more often how easy you are to please, sonically speaking that is. Some might mistake the vast amounts of gear you’ve owned or previewed as mere curiosity otherwise.

There’s more than one way to build a mouse trap.