HYPEX,PASCAL OR ABLETEC

HiMapman,

I always wanted a pair of Bel Canto Ref1000 monos ever since I first heard them driving a pair of Magnepan 3.6s at Audio Consultants in Chicago. They had an effortless quality that was very dimensional and real. Plus, they looked cool.
I still have complete respect for those amps. Unfortunately, they were out of my price range then and it looks like they still are beyond my budget even used years later. I just hope the newer amps I'm looking at sound that good.

Tim

Timrhu: "Has the Hypex NCore fad petered out already?"

Timrhu,

I just want to be clear and freely admit that I have never listened to any Hypex, Abletec or Pascal power module based amps in my system or any other system. I have no idea which one would sound the best in my system, I'm just seeking to learn enough so I can take an educated guess and select one to buy.

The original method of going to dealer showrooms to listen to and compare audio components appears to be diminishing quickly. One new paradigm seems to be internet direct sales with various allowances for in-home auditions with components inserted into your own system and room, not the dealer's. This is bad for dealers but more advantageous to consumers since it offers the twin benefits of a more relevant listening audition and lower prices.

The latest purchasing model I see emerging is having amplifier(s) custom built by amp builders/assemblers with the power modules and options of the customer's choosing(similar to current versatile laptop purchasing). This is the method that I'm considering but it has its difficulties. Unless you're fortunate enough to have heard amps with various power modules and input sections, you're basically flying blind. This is exactly the position I find myself in now and the main reason I posted this thread soliciting the listening impressions from owners, listeners and, hopefully, even members who have had the opportunity to compare technologies and develop a preference.

I have been reading as much information as I've been able to find on online forums like Audio Circle, DIY Audio, AVS Forum, What's Best and here on Audiogon. Based on what I've read thus far, Hypex Ncore based amps remain very popular and receive almost universal praises for their neutral, dynamic and highly detailed audio performance and sound characteristics. I don't consider the Hypex Ncore technology as a passing fad but more of a milestone in amplifier evolution. Hypex Ncore seems to be the current gold standard in class D that all competing newcomers, like Abletec and Pascal, are judged against.

IMO, class D has just too many clear advantages over tube, class A and class A/B technology to not become the predominate basis for hi-end audio amplification going forward. My opinion will probably stand only until the next breakthrough in this newer amp technology comes along.

FWIW,
Tim

Mcbuddah,

My mistake. It's my understanding that there were no physical changes between the M2-600M and M3-600M DSonic models; they are the same amps and do deliver 600 watts @ 8 ohms and an amazing 1,200 watts @ 4 ohms.

I believe your amps contain the Abletec power modules. Can you confirm this?

Thanks,
Tim

I just want to summarize what we've determined thus far in this thread concerning which power modules are utilized in various class D amps:

DSonic M3-1500M mono-blocks($1,375ea) use the Pascal XPRO-1 modules

DSonic M2-600M and the newer M3-600M mono-blocks ($975/ea.) are the same amps and both use the Anaview/Abletec ALC-1000-1300 modules.

According to a forum reply I read on www.diyaudio.com by Pabo, the current CTO and founder of Anaview(which owns Abletec), the ALC-1000-1300 has been discontinued and will be replaced with a new module, the AMS-1000, that's due out late summer of this year. It will be available for purchase at Profusion in the U.K. and possibly Shaw in the U.S. Current estimated price is $400-425 but has both the power modules and smps modules already integrated on the board.

This may cause DSonic to utilize this new module or substitute another module if they have insufficient supplies of the original Abletec ALC-1000-1300 modules.
The forum thread is at thttp://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/190182-abletec-alc1000-any-experience-8.htmlhread

Aluminati Sound 'X-1' stereo custom amp build ($2,000 estimate) will use the newer and smaller Pascal SPRO-2 stereo module.

JRDG Continuum 2 Integrated amp ($4,900) uses the Pascal M-PRO2 stereo module?

I've noted this listing with a '?' because I think this needs verification. According to Matt Kraemer of Aluminati Sound, the JRDG Continuum 2 uses the newer SPRO2 module, which is the same module he'll be using in his new 'X-1' custom stereo amp build due out in mid- July of this year. Unless Macrojack knows for certain his Continuum 2 amp uses the Pascal XPRO2 module, I'll try to confirm with Matt Kraemer.

Guido,

I think your class D spreadsheet is a very worthwhile effort and just want to be assured you have accurate information for it. Is your spreadsheet available online or is it only for personal reference?

Thanks,
Tim

Macrojack,

I think your idea of using an Oppo 105 as an interim dac solution, rather than purchasing the expensive internal JRDG option right now, is a very good one. I own the same unit and can vouch for its very good performance as a stand alone dac and as a digital media renderer and player.

Its internal top of the line Saber 3018 dac chips are capable of up to 24bit/192khz, even DSD with free software upgrade, decoding and playback. It has an asynchronous USB input (including a wireless dongle) and also utilizes a 32 bit digital remote volume control to prevent any musical information from being lost or affected.

I stream my entire cd collection, and several FLAC and WAV hi-res files, from a Synology NAS to the Oppo with excellent functional and sq results.

Everyone, please feel free to reply on any errors I may have made above.

Thanks,
Tim

Timrhu,

I incorrectly listed the Oppo 105's SOA Saber dac chip as the '3018' chip. It is actually the '9018' Saber dac chip which is used in the Oppo, as well as several other high-end dacs.

Sorry,
Tim

Guido,

Determining which class D amplifiers use which specific amplifier power modules/smps modules is not a simple matter and requires a bit of detective work. After looking into this a bit online, here are my current thoughts:

1. The upcoming Aluminati X-1 and JRDG 525M amp, as you observed, both have the same power ratings of 250w/ch @ 8 ohms and 500w/ch @ 4 ohms. However, I think the 525M uses the Pascal XPRO-2 power module/smps while I know the X-1 will be using the SPRO-2 module/smps.

2. The Alumanati X-1 and JRDG 525M share other similarities: both chassis are milled from solid blocks of aircraft-grade aluminum and utilize PFC(Power Factor Correction) that preconditions/filters the room ac power prior to entry into the modules.

3. The Continuum 2, I believe, uses the MPRO-2 module/smps rated at 400w/ch @ 8 ohms and 800w/ch @ 4 ohms. The MPRO-2 module was released by Pascal after the XPRO-2 modules and before the newest and smallest SPRO-2 modules.

4. The JRDG 825 and 925 amps, as I'm sure you are aware, both utilize Hypex NC1200 power modules.

Macrojack,

You are correct, the msrp of the JRDG Continuum 2 integrated amp is $9,500, not $4,500 as I incorrectly listed on a prior post. Thank you.

I also re-read my email from Matt Kraemer of Aluminati. He actually stated that his X-1 will use the Pascal SPRO-2 board and that the JRDG Continuum uses 'a' Pascal module also, not that they both use the exact same module. Therefore, you've been correct all along that the Continuum 2 uses the MPRO-2 module and I apologize for questioning your accuracy on your own amp.

I'm starting to think I'll be sonically pleased whether I choose the Hypex, Pascal or Abletec option. All 3 are roughly the same price, too. I may just do the audiophile unthinkable and decide based on casework, then progress from there.

Thanks,
Tim

Guido,

I think I should limit by internal sleuthing of class D amplifiers' internal power modules lest I convict the innocent and acquit the guilty.

After a second look, it seems the Pascal SPRO-2 power board (250w@8ohms,500w@4ohms and bridgeable to 1,000w)was released in Feb of 2013. The JRDG 525 stereo amp (250w@8ohms,500w@4ohms and bridgeable to 1,000w) was released/announced at CES in March of 2013. I would think that Pascal, being the OEM for Rowland, had sufficient time to supply Rowland with enough of these new modules to begin production. I was unable to visually compare internal photos of the 525 amp components to photos of the Pascal SPRO-2 stereo power boards, however, it seems reasonable to conclude that the Rowland 525 stereo amp utilizes the Pascal SPRO-2 module based on the products' release dates and identical power ratings.

I did not find any info suggesting the 525 uses the Pascal older XPRO-2 modules.

I'm having a hard time, however, finding published reviews on either the 525's or the Pascal module's sonic characteristics.

Kuribo,

While sq is my primary criteria in choosing a new amp, I'm not immune from the ascetics of a component, especially when it will be prominently visible in my rack whenever I'm listening to music or using my ht. I realize I will pay a premium for this benefit but it will not be excessive with the Alumanati amp build (about $2,000 for the same Pascal amp module, and similar anodized aluminum casework, as the JRDG 525 amp currently priced at approx. $5,000). It seems like a bargain to me, even though I realize I won't be getting the exact same value added internal components, technology or sq as the Rowland.

Macrojack,

I agree with you about the desirability of the Rowland 525 itself over an Aluminati amp build. I don't think doubling my budget is currently feasible but I think a used or demo 525 at a reduced price will be added as my option#5. I'm not overly optimistic about finding one, though, and certainly will not be holding my breath.

Thanks for the assistance all,
Tim

Hi Guido,

My current german skills were not sufficient to gather much info from the German language review you attached. However, the 6Moons comparison of the Gato DIA400 vs the DIA 250's sonic impressions were more helpful but required a bit more study to comprehend. I was able to decipher Srajan Ebaen's sonic impressions and descriptive variances between the two and found that my sonic system preferences are in tune with his and that I'm seeking a system sound that is more in-line with the DIA 250's than the DIA 400's.

That is, I would like my system to be detailed and transparent even if that means not all of my recordings will sound as good and some of my upstream components' weaknesses may be exposed.

I believe my system preferences are evolving from one that wanted a sound a touch on the warm side of neutral to one that is more accurate and detailed with warmth provided by the music/recording if it exists at all; I don't want to color the sound.

The section of his review concerning 'class D flavors' was particularly helpful in coming to this realization. It appears the Pascal SPRO-2 power modules, contained in the DIA, may be to my liking in tis regard. But, the Hypex nc400 and Abletec modules may also be suitable as well; it's hard to be sure without hearing them.

My current system(24 bit/96khz files via a Synology NAS processed via an Oppo 105, output direct via xlr to a CDA high powered amp that drives Magnepan 2.7qr speakers)is supplying a detailed, dimensional and palpable sound on well recorded music. My current favorite is a Carmen Gomes hi-res file called 'A Thousand Shades of Blue'. Some of my ripped cds have less of these qualities, which I understand is to be expected.

Thanks for the referenced materials, I think I'm getting closer to an informed choice.
Tim

Guido,

I also read one needs to make the distinction between bridging into 8 ohm vs 4 ohm speaker loads with this module, with the former being generally permissible and the latter being somewhat more restrictive. My use is a relatively constant 4 ohm speaker load over the audible range with few, if any, dips below 4 ohms at any frequency. I don't envision utilizing the modules bridging ability, anyway, but I appreciate your cautionary forewarning.

Thanks,
Tim

Guido and Merrill(Ua100k),

I would like your opinions on another option I just discovered online that might be a possible good starting point in my situation but don't want to make a purchase I may regret.
Currently, there's a 'gently used' pair of Bel Canto Reference 500M mono-block amps for sale on EBay. Current high bid is $800 for the pair that are being sold by Overture Audio/Video in Wilmington, Del. They were a customer trade in that are rated as very good condition, which the photos seem to validate, at least cosmetically. Here's the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/221439500514

I was thinking that these might be a good and less expensive option especially if the ref500m have similar performance qualities to the ref1000m amps and they could be bought at $1,000/pair or so.
I read an older review from 6Moons on the ref1000 that was extremely positive. The ref500 are half the power, however, at 500 w/ch @ 4 ohms. I know that's sufficient power for my speakers since my current class D amp is 440watts and attains spl levels far above my normal listening levels without a hint of strain.
Not having heard these or any other amp options I listed, I'm relying on your experienced opinion on whether you think I'd be better served by these or waiting and buying the Abletec, Pascal or Hypex Ncore based amps.

Thanks for your thoughts in advance,
Tim

Macrojack and Guido,

Yes, I'm looking for a cost effective amp that is a good match for my somewhat inefficient Magnepans that enables me to take advantage, and try out, the newer class D advances. I am not opposed to buying used in good condition if it allows me to get performance beyond my modest budget. That's why the Bel Canto seemed attractive, a well reviewed $4k new pair of mono-blocks at 1/4th the price. With 4 days left, however, the high bid on the BC ref500s is now at $1,125 and will probably rise further.

OTOH, Guido raises a good point that the current class D modules from Abletec, Pascal and Hypex may surpass the sq of the older BC amps containing the older ucd modules. All 3 seem to be promising, with good reviews when being used in current amps.
So, back to where I started this inquiry, but that's alright. I'll spend a bit more on the newer technology but hopefully gain better sq for a longer time span.

My current thinking is to wait and buy the new Aluminati X-1 stereo amp with the Pascal SPRO-2 module (that Jeff Rowland obviously likes) and try it with my system. Best case, I love it and keep it for a long time. Worst case, I don't like it, sell it and then try one of the other options.

Thanks for your assistance,
Tim

Hello Hifial,

I did not respond to your very good post on my previous post because I only saw it today, your post date makes it appear like I just ignored your thoughtful and articulate comments on that post. I assure you that I just read them a few minutes ago at about 8am Thursday morning.

I'm thinking that Audiogon didn't post thread replies immediately and the sequence of when members actually hit'Submit now' and replied was not mirrored accurately beause of Audiogon delays in the actual system posting to the graphic interface screens all members see on their screens. In other words, when I hit 'Submit now'on 5/14 in my previous reply, your reply on 5/14 was not posted and visible to other members, including me. This issue is somewhat hard to articulate but I've experienced this issue before on Audiogon and I hope you understand my explanation. I've had numerous cases of several hour delays between hitting'Submit now' and actually seeing it posted on the thread. Audiogon keeps these issues pretty hush hush and never really acknowledges the problem but I'm certain it exists and it seems to be getting worse, not better.

Anyway, to remedy this, I copied your post below and included my response in quotation marks below each of your numbered points/comments:

Hifial:
I have been following this thread and have a few points.

1) Have had both an NC400 and an NC1200 (Veritas) in my system.
As good (really good) as the NC400 is it is in NO WAY 90% of the NC1200 in sound. The NC1200, if done right, is in a WHOLE different league.
noble100: "I've always respected your opinions and trust the accuracy of your impression. My budget of $2,500 is 20% of the price of the Merrill Veritas. It seems like I was overly optimistic expecting the nc400 to be 90% of the nc1200 in sq. Hopefully, I'll get lucky and obtain 20% of the the nc1200's sq. If you think 20% is still too optimistic, perhaps the better strategy is trying the newer Abletec or Pascal amps since both at least have the potential of obtaining a higher percentage similarity to the nc1200 than the nc400 can obtain."

2) It REALLY does matter who and how they build these amps. And the quality of the parts and cases DO matter. The little things DO make a difference in the quality of the sound.
So if you go the DIY route make sure who ever does it KNOWS what they are doing.

noble100: "Both amp builders I'm considering, James Romeyn for the nc400 and Aluminati for the Pascal SPRO-2 build, have considerable amp assembly experience and understand the importance of using quality parts and isolation in amp layout. For parts, they utilize Neutrik xlr jacks, Cardas rca input jacks and speaker terminals along with silver teflon internal wiring. For isolation, they physically separate the power modules from the nc600 or nc1200 smps modules within the enclosure, route connecting wires through shielded metal channels and use internal and external vibration reducing materials, panels and footers."

3) The NC400 is ONLY a DIY. Hypex is very aggressive about that. So if a "builder" decides to use a different brand that may be or be part of the reason for the change.

noble100: "I have no knowledge of Hypex taking actions to curtail the use of their nc400 modules by either builder but you may be correct as far as I know. James Romeyn is still building nc400 based amps. Aluminati has stated they have ceased building nc400 amps due to dwindling demand. After extended listening to a Pascal supplied SPRO-2 stereo sample board, both Aluminati owners thought it was an advancement in sq performance from their Hypex stereo amp build (that consisted of dual nc400 modules both driven by a single nc1200 smps) and thought it would be a likely candidate for future high build demand once word spreads of its high performance, relatively lower cost and the built in smps contained on each amp module board.
I understand the reservation of the nc400 modules for the diy community is a type of homage and reward by Hypex/Bruno P. to them for their early and continued support of his earlier ucd modules. However, I have 2 issues with their aggressive enforcement of this decision:
1. Knowing first-hand how good their OEM nc1200 performed and the likely very high retail price of amps that utilized it would be, how did they overlook the somewhat obvious causal reaction of higher demand for the only Hypex modules that were available for non-OEM purchase, the nc400 modules?

2. Once Hypex realized the higher than expected sales of their "DIY reserved" nc400 modules, they decide to 'aggressively crackdown' on suspected amp builders like they're committing a crime rather than just increasing production. They don't realize that the likely amp builders are likely to be DIYers with the experience, skills and tools to be able to build amps at anything approaching an efficient rate and in significant quantities? They didn't realize that not everyone has the skills time and desire to assemble their own amp? They didn't realize these individuals might hire DIYers to build nc400 based amps for them? Do they realize these amp builders are just trying to make a little extra money from their uniquely well suited skills and that none of them are getting rich from their endeavors and no cmpany revenue is being pirated? Don't they realize Hypex sales and revenue are only positively affected by nc400 amp builders? Do they not realize they are aggressively cracking down on the same DIYers they wanted to reward? If Hypex sold dishwashers and 'reserved' a lower quality model just for homebuilders, would they aggressively crack down on homebuilders that bought too many of their lower quality and lower priced models because they bought extra units to sell to homeowner remodelers interested in the low cost but surprisingly high quality of these supposedly lower quality dishwashers that were rated by many to be of higher quality than their current dishwasher? Okay, I'm calming down now but I have just one final question for Hypex: WTF? Are there issues with nc400 amp building I'm not getting?"

4) One day I would love the chance to hear the Pascal and Albetec Class D amps. The more the better and the better sound for Audiophiles.
noble100: "Amen, I'm in complete agreement. Hi-end sound us for the masses at semi-affordable prices? If that day's coming, I'm all for it. Today, class D amp prices span a wide range, from under $1k as a low price (several Class D Audio stereo amps to a high of about $45k/pair (Marten mono-blocks from Scandinavia). I would be very interested in a review of selected class d amps from these price extremes and various price points in between."


5) I agree with Merrill. The Maggie speakers will sound great with the amps he suggests for the reasons he states. A club member who has a pair tried the NC1200 and he said his system never sounded better. At the time he was using one of the better ARC mono amps.
noble100: "I would probably stretch and buy the Veritas at $12.5k if I wasn't currently spending large amounts of $$ on a total kitchen remodel. But I've already spent more than the cost of the Veritas on the remodel and we have a little more to do. So, I need to stick to my $2,500 budget for the amp. As I mentioned earlier in my previous post, Since I'm unable to audition any of these prior to purchase, I've decided to just start with buying one of my amp options and trying it out in my system. If I love it, I'll keep it until I decide to try something new or something better comes along down the road. If I'm not thrilled, I'll either return it if allowed or sell it if not allowed, I'll then buy the next one on my list and repeat. If, by the time I've tried all 3, I'm still not thrilled with at least one then I'll create a new list of contenders and try again. Unless someone has a better idea, here is the order I've come up with:

1st: Pascal SPRO-2/Aluminati Sound build for the reasons I explained in response to Hifial's 1st point above and because Merrill, whose opinion and class D amp accomplishments I respect, stated the Pascal has a good chance to sound good due to the module's low impedance output which should offer improved control of my Magnepan 2.7qr speaakers.

2nd: Abletec module/DSonic M3-600M mono-blocks for reasons I also explained in response to Hifial's 1st point above and because Hifial thinks it has a better chance to sound really good than the nc400.

3rd: Hypex nc400 because Hifial, who has auditioned both the nc400 and nc1200/Veritas in his own system, doesn't consider the nc400 as in the same league as the nc1200.So, I have high hopes for the 1st and 2nd options but much lower expectations of this option.

6) As good as the Bel Canto amps are, I like them a lot, I agree with Guido that times have changed.
noble100: "I agree, better potential sq improvement with a newer class D module than a pre-Hypex ncore module."

7) Tim, I see your price range is $2,500 but can you add to this if need be? I ask this because you might be putting all your eggs in one basket. As good as the Oppo is you might be better served by getting a stand alone DAC and a new amp. I have heard the Oppo in several members systems and then when the put in a reasonable priced DAC it really took their system up a notch. There are some great sounding DACs out there for a reasonable price. Say from around $1,000 to $2,000 new and less on the used market. Think Teac, Benchmark, BMC and Lynx Studio. And sometimes there are some really great DACs that cost $2,500-$2,800 new but can be had for as little as $2,000-$1,700 used.

I think the combo of an well built NC400 or Albetec with one of the above DACs would something for you to consider if you can.
noble100: " Sure, I'm open to trying a good used standalone dac with the Pascal or Abletec based amp. I just need a bit of time to financially recuperate after the remodel is done in a few weeks."

I'll try to start a thread on the Pascal/Aluminati Sound stereo amp impressions after I listen for a few months.But I won't even receive this amp (Matt Kraemer said I'll be getting SN 0001-which I think is kinda cool).

Thanks to everyone for your assistance throughout this thread, it's been very helpful,
Tim

Hifial,

Those new Thor mono-blocks from Merrill are getting some good reviews but they're still $4k/pair. I get a little reluctant when the amp prices are the same as a decent used car. I'm reading they're worth it but I think I'd rather try paying half that in hopes of finding a 'hidden gem' in amps using the newer Abletec or Pascal modules. Matt, from Aluminati, just told me the Pascal SPRO-2 amp modules have been updated and are now bridgeable into 4 ohm loads as well as 8 ohm loads.

So, the stereo Aluminati amp will be called the 'X-2' and there will be monos available later this summer that'll be called 'X-1'. The Pascal amp module is now rated at 1,000 watts in bridged mode at either 4 or 8 ohms and is 89% efficient. I haven't asked the mono-blocks expected price yet but would imagine it will be about double.

I'm not currently willing to pay $4k for the mono versions just yet,either. But, if I like what I hear from the stereo 'X-2" version, I may consider paying more for either those or the Merrill Thors. Maybe the upgrade from the X-2 to the X-1 monos will be similar to the difference you hear from the nc400s to the nc1200s.

I know I'm a lot more comfortable spending the price of a beater used car, about $2,000 for the X-2, than the $4,000 for the Thors or X-1s right now. I wish Guido could review the X-2 or X-1s in PFO before I make a purchase.
I am concerned my expectations are unrealistically high for the X-2 right now. I think I'll check with Aluminati to see if they offer an in home trial period.

Thanks, Tim

Hi Guido,

Yes, I was thinking the X-1 monos would perform better, too. I was hoping the substantial 500w/ch of the X-2 would supply good ease and authority at half the price.

Matt informed me that Aluminati is offering a 15 day in home trial on the X-2 and has a 2yr parts and labor warranty, and probably on the X-1s too. I think you would say that it'll take more than 15 days for the amp to break in. I'm not sure, you may be right.

Aluminati said the X-2's S-PRO-2 board has the capability to be bridged but a switch must be flipped and a jumper must be added to the circuit to tell it to run in bridge mode.

The D-Sonic M3-600M monos at $1,950/pr., possibly even the M3-1500M at $2,650/pr., are my current backup plans if the X-2 is not to my liking. The M21500Ms had a rave review from 6Moons and, according to D-Sonic, the M2 and M3 are identical amps.

Thanks,
Tim

Guido,


Before I buy it, I'm sending it to you for break-in and your upcoming PFO review comparing the Alumanati X-2 to the D-Sonic M3-600 and 1500 mono-blocks. I'll be coming to your place in Austin to assist as requested. Please let me know the date and time to show-up. I'll buy the review sample of the winner.

Thanks for the advice, will do.

Tim



Thanks,
Tim

Kuribo and Guido,

My decision to try a new class D amp in my system was initiated during the reading of audio blogs concerning the building of relatively inexpensive home assembled amps on Audio Circle and DIY Audio. Most of these diyers were very excited to be using the Hypex NCore nc400 amp modules and Hypex switching mode power supplies(smps) in their creations. Hypex had announced at their introduction that their top of the line and most powerful module, the nc1200, would only be available to OEM amp manufacturers. Hypex also announced, however, that they would be making a lower powered amp module in their module lineup, the nc400, available for purchase to the DIY community for use in their home do it yourself amps. Hypex 'reserved' the nc400 modules as a sort of homage to the DIY community. Diyers were instrumental in the success of Hypex's prior class D modules and this was a form of respect, appreciation and reward for the DIY community's loyalty and support.

So, as a result, the nc1200 modules and smps began to be incorporated into expensive ($9,000 plus)new model amps from companies such as Acoustic Imagery, Jeff Rowland Design Group and Merrill Audio. Reviews of these amps were very positive.

The DIY guys, looking for a less expensive amp that possessed similar neutral high-end performance, started buying the Hypex nc400 modules, nc600 or nc1200 smps, wiring harnesses along with Neutrik and Cardas connectors and began making their custom creations.

Practically all of the do-it-yourself amp builders reported their nc400 based amp builds' had very similar sonic characteristics: very well controlled bass with a smooth midrange and a clean, detailed and extended treble that is non-fatiguing. Most assemblers described the overall sound as neutral, transparent and detailed that was very revealing of system changes, upstream deficiencies and recording quality. These sonic qualities were consistently reported whether the diyer built the amp in a custom case, generic case, cigar box or even on open breadboards without enclosures.

The Hypex nc400 amp builds sounded very promising and I decided I'd like to try one in my system. However, due to a stroke I don't have total control of the left side of my body. This, along with very minimal electronics assembly experience, caused me to look for a company to build the amp(s) for me.

The first nc400 based amp builder I contacted was James Romeyn, who was mentioned several times on these forums as an experienced and trusted builder. His assembly charge was very reasonable ($155) and he seemed very knowledgeable, passionate and detailed about his amp builds. The only downside I could see was that his stereo and mono-block cases ( sourced from Ray Sonic in Hong Kong) were, to put it kindly, nothing to write home about.
While researching online for alternative cases, I discovered photos of Aluminati Sound's very impressive stereo and mono-block cases. My thinking was why should I place these very extraordinary amp components in an ordinary case, or mono cases, when extraordinary cases were available at approx. the same price. Aluminati was founded by 2 diyers primarily concerned with audio performance that just happened to be CNC machinists. Their unique combination of audio enthusiasm and many years of experience as CNC machinists, metal fabrication and electronics assembly placed them in a fortuitous position.

Kuribo, you stated in your post:

"do you continue to consider the Aluminati product? A substantial part of their cost is the expensive machined aluminum case which adds little to the performance of the amp.A much better price/performance option would be the ncore400 built to order from James Romeyn."

Yes, my currently preferred option continues to be the Aluminati X-2 amplifier utilizing the Pascal SPRO-2 module. The aluminum case may have limited sonic benefits, although I cannot confirm this with any certainty.

While sound is my primary criteria in selecting a new amp, the cosmetics are also of concern since this new amp will be highly visible in my audio rack about 12ft away from my chair whether I'm using it for 2-ch music or ht duties; I'll rarely be listening in the dark. However, I can say definitively that the Aluminati X-2, with its anodized aluminum case and blue led under-case status light, will be orders of magnitude more attractive than the plain silver or black front panel, or black cases with "NCORE" printed on each mono-block, as the stock Chinese cases offered by James Romeyn appear.

You may be right, the James Romeyn Hypex nc400 amp build may be a better price/performance option than the Pascal based Aluminati. But, again, I cannot state this with any degree of certainty, having heard neither in my system nor any other system. If you have, as your statement seems to indicate, then any comparative thoughts on their sonic characteristics is more than welcomed.

Ultimately that remains my dilemma; having heard neither, I lack a solid basis for making a decision. I am left with only 2 subjective impressions from those that have tried both in their systems:

1. A few anecdotal mentions on AVS Forum from diyers who had built Hypex and Pascal amps claiming they preferred the Pascal amps without elaborating.

2. From Aluminati co-owner,Matt Kraemer, on a previous post on this thread stating: "We are having a lot of fun designing and testing this new amp. It's sounds much more alive than the Ncore boards IMO and I have made many amp cases for the NC400 board."

With this lack of feedback on the Pascal versus Hypex comparisons, I'm now thinking the the D-Sonic M3-600 or M3-1500 mono-blocks, that have received very good professional reviews as well as more anecdotal positive reports on audio forums, are coming on strong. It looks like it may come down to in-house trials to decide this.

Sorry for the excessive post length,
Tim

Macrojack,

You raise some good point about Rowland being a good solid, if a bit more expensive, alternative and the likelihood of much better retained resale value than the Aluminati amp. Unfortunately, I'm also remodeling my kitchen which is diverting funds from more important and enjoyable pursuits. I would love to have a JRDG amp and, from all indications, I think I'd like it very much but $4,500 is beyond my reach right now.

Kuribo,

You also mentioned the issue of resale value and the importance of stressing sonic performance over cosmetic attributes. Very valid points that I generally agree with, although personally to a somewhat lesser degree. Maybe I'm less of an audiophile than I thought I was since cosmetics are still important to me.

Audiozen,

Thanks for further complicating my dilemma. About 3 weeks ago,I had read about the well respected ALC-1000 being discontinued and being replaced with the promising, and much anticipated, AMS-1000. I actually have discussed, with James Romeyn, the possibility of him building me a pair of mono-blocks using a bridged AMS-1000 in each. It's my understanding that these new power conversion modules have a switch mode power supply (smps) integrated into it. I'm going to add this build to my list of possible amp options.

Things are developing quickly with class D technology. As this thread has progressed, instead of getting closer to a decision, I find myself reassessing my initial prospective amps and considering other options, too.

I could take a safer route and choose the Hypex nc400 amp builds or D-Sonic commercial amps. Or, I could take a bit of a gamble and go for the new Aluminati amp or amp build with the new Anaview AMS-1000 modules. The risks are greater with these last two but the possible rewards are potentially greater too.

I think Macrojack is right that, no matter which amp I choose and how well or poorly it performs, this is unlikely to be my last amplifier. Thinking in these terms relieves the pressure of making a possible mistake in my choice and makes me more amenable to taking a chance on an Aluminati or Anaview AMS-1000 build.

I've got some thinking to do.

Thanks all for your considered opinions.
Tim

Guido,

Yes, if these modules are as good as expected, OEM integrators' amps could make a significant advance in performance if the modules are well integrated.

I would also think that any OEM integrators would want to compare their existing amplifiers' modules to this new Anaview AMS-1000 module. In particular, I'm thinking of D-Sonics' use of the now discontinued Abletec ALC-1000 in their well reviewed M2 and M31500M monoblocks. Will Dennis Deacon, D-Sonics owner, be replacing the discontinued ALC-1000 modules with the new Anaview AMS-1000 modules if they perform as expected? It seems like he would be forced to unless he has an ample reserve of the discontinued Abletec ALC-1000 modules stockpiled to sustain production and repairs' requirements. If not, he may just substitute the Anaview module, with appropriate internal mods as he sees necessary, and introduce a successor model perhaps labelled with an M4 series designation.

I would also think amp companies like Acoustic Imagery, Rowland, Merrill, and any others utilizing Hypex nc1200 modules, would evaluate and compare these to their own amps and consider using the AMS-1000 if it betters their existing modules.

Guido, as a reviewer, I guess all these fast paced developments in class D amplification technology will offer new interesting opportunities (such as reviewing D-Sonics' M3 series versus the M4 series, or whatever they call it, amps and the multitude of Hypex based amps against ones using the new Anaview modules)and challenges that should keep you on your toes for a spell. It seems like just a few days ago that I was requesting a three-way review of the Hypex, Pascal and Abletec based assembled and OEM amp implementations.

I'm fairly sure you already have arranged a review comparing the performance of all 3 against the first amp to employ this new suspected world-beater Anaview AMS-1000 module.

Audiozen and Guido,

Hypex offered their top of the line nc1200 modules solely to OEM amp manufacturers while allowing only the lower performance nc400 modules to be sold to the DIY community. Am I correct in understanding that Anaview will not be restricting this new AMS-1000 to OEM manufacturers only? If so, this would be very interesting and, as far as I know, a new paradigm in audio and amp building. This would essentially blur the lines between amp manufacturers, diyers and amp assembling companies like James Romeyn and Alumanati. I'm not arguing against this new equal footing, but can you ever recall such a level playing field in home audio before? My thought is that this, if true, would be considered revolutionary by many in audio.

Hi Guido,

I know, my friend, you have no plans to propose comparitive amp review projects to your PFO editors; I was pretending as if your employer was free to report on current topics of interest and relevance in audio to their constomers, devoid of financial conflicts of interest with advertisers and concerns regarding PFO's long term sustainability.

I was, of course, just having a little fun and considering a review that I would be very interested in reading. I apologize for pretending that they have complete freedom of the press, and could actually print as they see fit, without regard to the consequences of their content.

My mistake, I was flippantly ignoring the likelihood of self censorship since I, fortunately, am not bound by the same constraints.

Thank you,
Tim

Guido,

I have no qualms with your reviewing guidelines regarding technical information or insistence on manufacturers' corroborating any information before inclusion. I've read several of your reviews and consider them all very well written, professional, informative, well articulated and overall very enjoyable to read.

My main point was that I would think PFO is in a precarious position when deciding what products to assign for review. I want to preface my following comments by stating I have very little knowledge of the process editors use when deciding what products they choose to review and any constraints they encounter or perceive when doing so. My comments are based only on reason, logic and common sense and without any specific knowledge or insight from any source.

From this perspective, I was contemplating why there is such a consistent lack of reviews comparing the performance of various class D amps against each other. For an example, let's say an editor is considering a larger scale review comparing, as chance would have it, the following amps:

MerrillAudio Veritas mono-blocks using Hypex nc1200 power conversion modules.

D-Sonic M31500M mono-blocks using the discontinued Abletec ALC-1000 power conversion modules.

James Romeyn assembled stereo amp using a pair of the Hypex nc400 power conversion modules and nc1200 smps.

Aluminati Sound X-2 assembled stereo amp using a single Pascal SPRO-2 power conversion module

Technical information on all power conversion modules would be aupplied by Hypex, Abletec and Pascal.
Amp features and technical information would be supplied by Merrill Audio, D-Sonic, James Romeyn and Aluminati Sound.
Given the above, my thoughts are:

If either Merrill or D-Sonic advertised with the editor's print or online publication, he may not assign such a review if he thought there was a strong possibility of either of the assembled amps from James Romeyn or Aluminati Sound outperforming the Merrill or D-Sonic amps. Whether either OEM amp company would actually cease their advertising with a publication due to being bested by an upstart assembled amp is debatable and probably irrelevant. Even the editor's perception that this could ensue may be enough to cause him to nix the whole review.

In no way do I think PFO is unique in this regard; the other online and printed audio magazines may also avoid these types of reviews for the same reasons. Ultimately, however, the only indication of my theory being correct is the complete lack of this type of comparative review existing on any online audio site or in any printed audio medium I know of.

I may be all wet with my thoughts and just frustrated with my lack of success finding comparative information online about these various power conversion modules. I am just very curious why there is such a lack of information on this very obvious subject for a thorough review. The only information I've discovered is anecdotal and usually on audio forums, such as this one, from individuals who have no financial incentives, or disincentives, causing them not to respond or not to report honestly.

Just my 2 cents,
Tim

Audiozen,

You piqued my interest by mentioning the new Anaview/Abletec AMS-1000-2600 module. I even called Richard, Anaview's head of U.S. Sales and Distribution in N.J., and he was quite informative.

He said the new AMS-1000-2600 modules are currently being built at their Chinese contractors and will be available soon. He also said the older ALC-1000-1300 is not going to be discontinued and will remain a current model in their ALC series modules. He said the main difference between these modules is not sound quality, saying both sound remarkably similar, but the ability of the new AMS to automatically adapt internally to either 115 or 230 voltages. The older ALC requires a change of setting on an internal dip switch, correct attachment of an inline fuse and the use of a supplied small jumper when assembling that is specifically configured depending on supplied mains voltage.

I recently talked to James Monteyn, too. He's agreed to assemble a pair of mono-blocks for me using either Anaview module I choose. I contacted Profusion LLC in the U.K. and they will sell me a pair of either modules. But, the new AMS modules won't be available for another 1-3 months. However, they do have the older ALC modules on-hand and ready for immediate purchase and delivery. I'm leaning toward using the ALC modules since, according to Anaview, sq is basically the same and I'll save about $300 buying these modules instead of the pricier AMS-1000-2600 modules. The ALC-1000-2600 is the module used in D-Sonics M2-1500M mono-blocks that received an excellent review on 6 Moons a little while ago.

Either module configured to operate in bridged mode,by changing a setting on an internal dip switch and installing a supplied small jumper, and deliver approx. 1,000 watts @ 4ohms. This should allow for a solid but relaxed presentation with ample headroom on all types of music with either module.

The aluminum cases I already ordered will accommodate either modules very well. For cosmetics, I've ordered 2 led modules that James will mount to the upper front of the natural aluminum colored faceplates on each case. These will cast a soft blue downward light 120 degrees across the faceplate and act as a power status indicator.

I started this thread to hopefully gain knowledge about the sonic characteristics of Hypex, Pascal and Abletec(now part of Anaview)power conversion module based class D amps. I still have not heard any amp based on any of these modules in my, or any other, system. There is a conspicuous lack of this type of information available in any print or online sources. I hope to change this somewhat, even though I am by no means a skilled reviewer.

I've decided to proceed by selecting and buying the likeliest candidate first and then become well acquainted with it in my system. If I'm satisfied with the performance, I'll keep it. If not, I'll return or sell it and try the next likeliest and repeat through all amp module options if necessary. If no amp is satisfactory, hopefully, new class D options will emerge by that time.

I'll post my impressions after a few months of listening along the way as I go along this journey. I've decided to try the Anaview module/amp first, and Pascal module second, since my subjective opinion is that these 2 have the best chance of besting Hypex nc400 modules/amps since they are used in such highly reviewed amps from Rowland and D-Sonic. I could be wrong, but I think of the Hypes nc400 modules/amps as very good, safe choices that will perform highly, but, have been around for awhile, and there may be better class D amps you can discover if you're willing to search and take a bit of a chance. The risk, or chance comes into play because of the complete lack of le, comprehensive and reliable reviews comparing class D amps using various power conversion modules. Yes, there are other factors influencing an amp's performance besides the module used but this should be incorporated into the reviews by a skilled audio reviewer. The fact that it won't be simple should not be used as a rationalization for not even attempting it or considering this truth as insurmountable.
I should be able to begin obtaining my own impressions of the Anaview/Abletec ALC-1000-1300 based James Romeyn mono-blocks in 2-3 weeks.
I'll report back in a few months on this thread or I'll start a new one. I want to give them 2-3 months to determine how the performance develops if the modules require a breakin period.

Thanks all,
Tim

Hi Guido,

Yes, I'm getting very excited and curious to hear how these perform compared to my current class D amp. The total cost will be $1,213.38/pair excluding shipping

Here's a breakdown of my costs for these mono-blocks:

2 Anaview ALC-1000-1300 stereo modules and 2 connector kits from Profusion: $674.40
(2x$317.25=$634.50+$9.90 alc0300/1000 connector kits+ $30 shipping=$674.40)

2 Aluminum amp cases part#5209 from Ali Express =$139.00
(2x $40.73=$81.46+$57.54 shipping=$139.00)

2 Chrome light modules with blue led lights from Radiantz LED=$24.98
(2x$9.99=$19.98+$5.00 shipping-$24.98)

Case metalwork (drilling and cutting on 2 cases=$220.00

James Monteyn labor costs for 2 monoblocks=$155

Seems like a good deal for 1,000 watts/ch @ 4ohm mono-blocks, especially if they sound good.

Later,
Tim

Kuribo,

I had already read this entire long thread. This thread is what spurred me to consider having amps built with the new AMS-1000-2600 modules, that still are not available.
Unless I missed something, and I just scanned through it again, there is nothing negative stated about the Abletec/Anaview older ALC-1000-1300 modules. There is some mistaken information given, such as the ALC-1000-1300 is being discontinued, but nothing that I read that would discourage me from using them in a custom amp build. Please let me know if you disagree and read anything that could be construed as negative.

I'm about to order a pair of the ALC-1000-1300 modules very soon as in today or tomorrow, so I'd appreciate any additional knowledge you may possess.

In an earlier post, due to incorrect info on that AVS Forum thread, I thought D-Sonic might have to cease using these modules in their top of line M3-1000M mono-blocks and consider using the newer AMS-1000-2600 modules. I now realize they'll be able to continue installing ALC-1000-1300 modules in these amps since Anaview decided to continue manufacturing and supporting them. I stand corrected.

Thanks,
Tim

Sorry I meant DIY Audio thread, not AVS Forum thread, in my previous post.

Thanks,
Tim

Hi Timlub,

Very interesting; the input impedance could be a possible deal killer.

I was planning on using my Oppo-105 as a dac and limited input preamp for computer audio files. Its dedicated stereo output's impedance is 100 ohms on each channel. I also have a tube VTL preamp I'm not currently using but its output impedance is 200 ohms, which wouldn't help.
The input impedance on the new AMS-1000-2600 is listed as 13.5k ohms, which should be okay since it's more than 10 times the Oppo's output impedance of 100 ohms. However, Anaview's pdf file (link below) also states:"(*1) The input impedance on IN+ and IN- is not identical and also different between
channels. See application notes below for more information."
The application notes state: "(*1) Open drain outputs with 2kohm in series to limit the
current." I'm not sure what this means when using this module in building an amp.

http://www.anaview.com/sites/default/files/PDS%20AMS1000-2600-C.pdf

I could not find the input impedance on the ALC-1000-1300 so I need to do some more searching. If it is about the same input impedance as the AMS-1000, I believe the ALC-1000 should be an acceptable impedance match with the Oppo. Below is Profusion's pdf file on the Anaview ALC-1000-1300 module specs:

http://www.profusionplc.com/images/data%20sheets/alc1000-1300.pdf

I would like to know if anyone believes the ALC-1000-1300 modules are not a good match for my system. I'm also going to ask James Romeyn his opinion. If they're not a good match, I may be better off going with one of my backup options:

1. D-Sonic M3-600M mono-blocks that have a custom input board that raises the input impedance.

2. Hypex nc400 mono-blocks, I've read, have relatively high input impedances which allows for better matching.

The Aluminati X-2 stereo amp, using the Pascal SPRO-2 module, also has a somewhat low impedance of 2.2k ohms and may not be an ideal match either. The Pascal module data specs can be viewed at:

p://www.pascalaudio.com/downloads/S-PRO2_Datasheet-1_10.pdf
Thanks,
Tim

Audiozen and Guido,

Well, it looks like the ALC1000 is discontinued after all.

Kuribo,

I said I read that complete thread but made no claims of how well I did so.

While these reports are concerning, I don't think they would prevent me from going ahead with amp builds using the ALC1000 modules. Some of these issues, such as poor grounding documentation, become less of an issue with an experienced amp builder like James Monteyn. James also said the low impedance input, on both the AMS1000 and ALC1000 modules, is not an issue given the very low 100 ohm impedance of the Oppo-105 that I use as a dac, preamp and source.

My first choice in an amp module remains the new AMS1000 but it may not be available for another month or more. Even if I wait, I'm not sure I can find a vendor to sell me a pair. I'm also looking for a North American vendor to purchase a pair of the discontinued ALC1000 modules from, just in case.

After listening to some high-res music files for a few hours last night using my existing ClassD Audio amp, I was reminded that I definitely don't have a 'need' for a new amp since the music sounded very good. It's more of a 'want', justified only by my desire for new amplification to drive my center channel and passive sub for ht and to satisfy my curiousity about what other class d amps would sound like in my system. My thinking is that I can alternate which amp(s) drive my main speakers for music and which amp(s) drive my cc and sub for ht.

I still haven't ruled out building a pair of ClassD Audio mono-blocks or just buying a pair of D-Sonic M3-600M monoblocks that use the Abletec ALC1000 amp modules.

Thanks,
Tim

Update:

I found a U.S. seller of the Abletec ALC1000-1300 amp modules in Virginia yesterday. I bought 2 modules at $280 each. Here are links to the Abletec modules:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAwOFgxNDAw/z/pw0AAMXQnFhTj8Pa/$_57.JPG

Abletec Anaview ALC1000-1300 class D amplifier module 1000W-4ohm or 600W-8ohm
image
Abletec Anaview ALC1000-1300 class D amplifier modul...
US $279.95 New in Consumer Electronics, TV, Video & Home Audio, TV, Video & Audio Parts

Here'a a link to the cases:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/2609-aluminum-chassis-preamp-amp-amplifier-chassis-Power-amplifier-chassis-AMP-case-Enclosure-headphone-AMP-box/1751053160.html

James Romeyn should have all the build components by Wednesday, June 11th. I'll try to update as the builds progress.
Savings above by using the ALC1000 modules ($280 each) instead of the newer AMS1000 modules ($455 each) will result in the total mono-block price/cost being reduced to a risk-reducing $1,100/pair. If these sound as good as reported, I might not need to worry about re-sale prices.

Thanks,
Tim

Hi Mitch,

I'm actually paying James Romeyn $155 to build these mono-blocks.

But I'll ask him if he would track his man-hours. He's already told me he anticipates these bulds to be relatively simple compared to the many Hypex nc400 mono-block builds he's done. Take a look at the Abletec ALC1000-1300 module at this site:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301205577693

If the link worked, you can see that these modules are basically drop in components. As I understand it, here's what's involved:

1. Buy 2 cases that have internal dimensions that will accommodate each module's 6.5"W X 2.5"H X 7.09"L/D(166mmW X 63mmH X 180mmL/D)dimensions.

2. If running bridged, set internal dip switch and install provided jumper per instructions.

3. Source and buy 2 IEC receptacles, 2 xlr and/or rca jacks, 2 sets of pos/neg speaker binding posts, 2 sets of 4 case footers and 2 on/off switches if desired. Buy soldering gun, solder and hook-up wire. Buy 2 Abletec ALc1000-1300 modules and 2-3 ALC0300-1300-Connect internal connector kits from Profusion Electronics in Europe.

4. Cut out, or have a shop, cut out holes and drill screw holes to attach 120v IEC mains receptacle. xlr and/or rca input jacks, on/off switch if desired, speaker binding posts and case footers and holes to secure the Abletec modules to the cases. You may need to work with a CAD specialist at the metal shop to specify all cut-out and drilling details.

5. Mount all rear panel connectors, footers and secure the modules mounting screws.

6. Solder connections on inside of rear panel and attach crimp on connectors on internal connections per instructions.

AFAIK, that's about it. If you feel comfortable doing the above, great. If not, just contact James in Utah and he'll do it for you for $155. I think this is his first time building amps using these Abletec modules but I doubt he'll have any difficulties. All his Hypex builds required mounting and connecting separate switch mode power supplies with separate nc400 power modules. The Abletec modules comes fully integrated, with the smps already connected to the power transformers, which simplifies and speeds up the whole amp assembly process.

Mitch, I was looking at your system photos and was amazed at the size of your room;do you live in a warehouse? I was also thinking you're room is one of the few that may actually need 1,000 watts per channel. I'll be using these in a 18ftx13ft living room.

Tim

Mitch,

Those lofts sound/look cool; Pabst brewery, are you in Milwaukee or St. Louis?

Tim

Mitch,

LA, even better.

Update as of 7/1/14:

Both Abletec modules and all component parts(xlr jacks, cases, binding posts, IEC input connectors with attached on/off switches and LED status indicators) are in James Romeyn's possession.

He had a surge of European Hypex NC400 amp build orders but said he'll be assembling my amps after those are done. I should have these in about 2 weeks.

I also bought 2 maple amp stands from Steve Blinn for $360/pair. Each maple platform is 1.5" thick and has 4 brass cone-type spiked footers attached at the corners. I was able to have the platforms custom sized to 10.8" wide x 13" deep.

My plan is to position each amp/stand on my carpeted floor next to each Magnepan to reduce speaker cable length. I bought a pair of 6 ft xlr cables and a pair of 6 ft speaker cables custom made by James inorder to maximize system sq performance.

If members are sill interested, I'll try to update as progress is made,
Tim

Will do, Guido. I'll post again when they arrive. I'll probably use them for at least a few weeks before posting again on their performance.
I think the Abletec monos will need to be very good to surpass my current ClassD Audio SDA440CS stereo amp. I'm very curious and anxious to hear these new amps and what differences I'll notice, if any.

Later,
Tim

Hi Guido,

Yes, Dennis/D-Sonic was my first thought when thinking of the ideal company to complete amp builds utilizing he Abletech/Anaview modules. He's been great and I'm grateful he was so accommodating and willing to finish them.

You asked: "Have you considered asking him if he could take in the 1300 module in trade-in, and build you a 2600-based amp instead? The price difference might not be a major one."

I did ask him. The problem is that, since these modules are discontinued and he no longer builds amps using them, the modules have limited value to him. He did suggest I could sell them on the open market and put the money toward a new pair of his M3-600-M-A monos using the new Anaview AMS-1000-2600 modules that cost $2, 050 per pair. Dennis has stated the difference between the modules, in his opinion, is subtle so I decided the Abletechs should fit my needs and I could save about $1,000, to boot.

Timlub,

I think you're right that there's enough info on the internet and enough support that James could have built these. I think there were some other issues involved that limited the time James could devote to my builds; he needed to prepare for the Rocky Mountain Audio Show in Denver and his normal Hypex nc400 amp business was still going strong and he experienced a surge in orders at the same time. But thanks for the useful info on these builds.

In retrospect, knowing now what I didn't know starting out, I think I would have just purchased a pair of the D-Sonic M3-600-M-A monos with the new AMS modules for $2,050/pr. and called it a day. Live and learn, right?

Hopefully, this thread will help future buyers contemplating class D amps.

Later,
Tim

Kuribo,

Both you and Guido have suggested the newer AMS-1000-2600 modules are likely to outperform the older and discontinued ALC-1000-1300 modules. I tend to agree with both of you that the AMS is likely to sound better than the ALC; reasoning that Anaview would not discontinue the ALC and replace it with the AMS if it didn't perform better, or am I missing something? I have very limited experience with class D amps in general and have actually only auditioned one in my system, a ClassD Audio 440CS stereo amp, that I wound up buying in January 2014 and have used since as my main amp for driving my older pair of Magnepan 2.7 qr speakers for both 60% ht and 40% 2-ch music duties.

However, I'm now on a fixed income and no longer have the same discretionary income I enjoyed previously. Unfortunately, I'm constrained by financial reasons. Here's some clarifying information on my current thoughts:

1. I paid $560 for the pair of ALC amp modules and it will cost an additional $1,250 for parts and labor for D-Sonic to install these into their latest cases and produce, in effect, a pair of the original Abletec ALC-1000-1300 version of the M3-600-M mono-blocks that sold for $1,875/pair when I initially bought my modules. That means my pair will cost me $1,810/pair ($560 plus $1.250=$1,810). This $65 savings was definitely not my motivation for asking James Romeyn to build a 'copycat' version of the D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks. It wasn't worth the added complications involved and now wish I'd just ordered a new pair from D-Sonic instead for $1,875. Initially, I wasn't crazy about the styling of the D-Sonic amp's styling and decided to have James build a pair of amps in custom aluminum cases with blue LED power status lights shining downward on the cases' brushed aluminum faceplates.

2. D-Sonic's newer AMS-1000-2600 version of the M3-600-M mono-blocks, designated as M3-600-M-A, sell for $2,050/pair. Adding in the $560 I already paid for the ALC modules I wouldn't be using, this results in an effective cost of $2,610/pair to me.

3. I did ask D-Sonic if they would take my ALC modules in trade toward the purchase of a pair of the M3-600-M-A mono-block amps. But, since the ALC modules are discontinued and no longer used in any D-Sonic amps, the modules have limited value to them. Owner, Dennis Deacon, understandably declined and suggested I sell them on the used market and apply the proceeds toward the newer AMS version amps' purchase. Good idea but I'm unsure of how much these older ALC modules are worth, not certain the newer AMS amps even outperform the older ALC modules and don't want to delay obtaining new mono-blocks even further, which is why I decided to go with the ALC modules.

I realize I might be making a performance compromise by utilizing the original ALC based M3-600-M amps, instead of the newer AMS based amps, in my system. But I don't think this is a foregone conclusion:

D-Sonic owner Dennis Deacon, one of two people having heard both modules that I'm aware of, has stated that the sonic differences between these modules is "subtle".

The other, Richard, Anaview's head of U.S. Sales and Distribution in N.J., stated: "the main difference between these modules is not sound quality, saying both sound remarkably similar, but the ability of the new AMS to automatically adapt internally to either 115 or 230 voltages. The older ALC requires a change of setting on an internal dip switch, correct attachment of an inline fuse and the use of a supplied small jumper when assembling that is specifically configured depending on supplied mains voltage."

Now, I think I should also consider Kuribo's post stating: "All the feedback about it on Swedish and German audio sites (where it has a following) from adopters has been very positive in comparison to the discontinued module". This is news to me, since I've not read any of this feedback on these European sites. but I would like to. Kuribo, if these Swedish and German forums are in English or even available translated into English, please post the websites.

I've become a big fan of class D amplification ever since I fortuitously buying a sub-$500 ClassD Audio 440CS stereo amp to replace a broken Aragon 4004 to drive my inefficient Magnepan 2.7qr speakers. I was fascinated that a small, 15 pound, cool running, energy sipping, green and easily affordable class D amp could out-power and outperform (literally in every sonic category known to man) my former large, 85 pound, warm to hot running, space heating and expensive class A/B Aragon amp.

As our predictable 'audiofool' natures dictate and manifest themselves, I began wondering how other class D amps would perform in my system.

This curiosity led me to reading everything I could find on class D; how it differed from the traditional class A, class A/B and tubed amps and compared sound wise to them, what amp modules were being utilized by which companies, sonic impressions from owners and even about DIYers building their own amps utilizing various class D modules and both switching and more traditional toroidal power supplies.

During this learning process, I realized that my actual class D experience consisted of one brand amp in one system. My search for a new class D amp was not initiated by a dissatisfaction with the performance of my ClassD Audio 440CS amp in my system at all. In fact, I had a hard time imagining how another amp would better this little bargain gem of an amp's performance.

My current amp journey was instead initiated by curiosity and a desire to become better acquainted with, and gain firsthand knowledge about, this newer (although older than I thought) amp technology that I believe has a very bright future.

I hope this better explains my willingness to accept my next class D amp(s) being a bit less than the latest and newest version. If the newest AMS modules are truly superior to the slightly older ALC modules, I suspect I'll probably be owning a stereo or mono-blocks example in the not too distant future and find out for myself. I'd also like to audition other class D amps, from B&O Ice ASC, ASP and ASX based to Hypex and Pascal based. I'm just a class D neophyte right now.

Thanks,
Tim

Kuribo,

Thanks for the info, I'll check them out.

However, I made a commitment to the Abletec ALC-1000-1300 modules. D-Sonic built a pair of M3-600-M mono-blocks using my modules today and will be shipping them to me in the next few days.

Scm,

I'm currently using a Class D Audio 440CS with 220/440 Watts@8/4 Ohms. It's very good as I think the 470C would be.

I think both amps use International Rectifier amp modules that likely have a similar sonic character. I'm more interested in trying out different class d amps using different amp modules to see what various class d amps sound and which ones I like best in my system.

Thanks,
Tim

Macrojack,

Thanks for the words of reason and wisdom. I'm thoroughly fine with the ALC modules.

As it stands, I have no way to compare the ALC amps to the AMS amps. Two people who may be in the best positions to judge, D-Sonic owner Dennis Deacon, who has manufactured amps using both modules, and Anaview/Abletec's V.P. of North American Sales Rich Spina, who has marketed and sold both modules, have stated that the modules sound remarkably similar.

I think it was Confucius who proclaimed in 500 BC.:
"He who pays considerably more for 'latest and greatest' AMS class D amp modules in D-Sonic mono-block amps when told by two knowledgeable individuals that they sound remarkably similar to prior and less expensive ALC class D amp modules in D-Sonic mono-block amps, shall have earned the distinction of being considered remarkably foolish."

Fun fact: Confucius was one of the first Chinese registered Audiogon members and was the first to use the term "Newbee" on a forum post.

Thanks,
Tim

I think we're all in agreement that 'the final sound' is the most important quality, since that is what all listeners will be hearing, after the break-in period is completed and the sq stabilizes, for the life of the amp.

I know not everyone believes that there is such a thing as a break-in period for new amps. Personally having experienced several new amps transform their sonic character over time as they were played, I am a definite believer in this phenomena even though I don't completely understand the scientific theories postulated for its existence.

I'd rather this thread not get side-tracked into a discussion of whether amp 'break-in' periods are real or not or the various theories on why it exists.

Knowing it is usually preferable to have an abundance of information rather than an insufficient quantity, I think it's best for all involved that I report my sonic impressions at regular time intervals of amp usage as well as once I realize (probably in retrospect) that the amps' have stabilized.

This, Guido and 4orreal, is my long-winded way of saying that I'm willing to try and do both; report sonic impressions at roughly equal intervals beginning with initial out-of-the-box impressions and sonic impressions once I realize the amps' sq has stabilized.

I'll try to be as objective as possible while still having a blast listening to lots of familiar music.

Later,
Tim

Update 7/23/14:

I talked to James Romeyn yesterday and got a status update on my amp builds. He is still working his way through a surge in Hypex nc400 amp builds and, unfortunately, he has encountered some unexpected problems that he had to rectify (such as fixing an unexpected hum issue on a bridged nc400 build and a lack of predrilled screw holes on some ncore switch mode power supplies).
I requested he take care of these builds first so that he meets his guaranteed turnaround deadlines and so he can devote all his attention to my amp builds without feeling rushed.

However, the downside is that my amps will not be delivered for another 2-3 weeks. I'm okay with this since I'm not currently without a good amplifier.
I apologize for the delay since I am very anxious and curious, just like some followers of this thread may be, to actually discover how these amps perform.

I'll continue to try and update as things progress.

Thanks,
Tim

Update 10/23/14:

My adventure tales continue...

Earlier in this thread, when discussing feedback from other forums (DIY Audio and AVS) about using the Abletech/Anaview ALC1000-1300 modules in amp builds, Kuribo wisely and, in retrospect, prophetically posted the following when I inquired whether there were reasons not to use them:

06-02-14: Kuribo
"Did you miss the issues one poster had with them and the hassle he had getting them repaired? Did you miss the lack of clarity and assistance provided to those with questions by Abletec? Did you miss the complaints about the deficient instructions provided?

Good luck with them if there are any issues...

There would seem to be a world of difference between the documentation and customer support provided by Abletec in comparison to Hypex."

Amen, brother Kuribo, you hit the proverbial nail on the head with that post! My builder, James Romeyn, was unable to complete the mono-blocks precisely because of your accurate warning about the complete lack of documentation and customer support provided by Abletech/Anaview for these modules.

I've learned along this journey that Hypex takes an opposite approach, with a strong commitment to DIY amp builders, devoting their nc400 modules for DIY amp assemblers along with well documented instructions and very good customer support. I seriously underestimated the importance of good instructions and customer support to amp assemblers like James Romeyn's and, ultimately, my own detriment.

I suspect Abletech did not intend for their ALC100-1300 modules to be used by DIYers but rather as an OEM module much like Hypex's top-of-the line nc1200 module has been marketed and incorporated into more expensive completed amps from companies like Merrill. Acoustic Imagery, Mola-Mola and others.


In fairness to Mr. Romeyn, I don't consider this his failure at all. I consider this Abletech/Anaview's failure due to their lack of documented instructions and customer support for their modules. I think my ignorance and resulting underestimation of the importance of these supporting areas should also be considered a contributing factor in this set back.

At this point though, I just needed to find someone to complete the amp builds and I wasn't going to give up. After all, did America give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? I think we all know the answer to that.

Knowing that D-Sonic used the same Abletec ALC100-1300 modules in their original M3-600M mono-blocks, I called them to see if they'd be willing to complete my amp builds. I talked to the owner, Dennis Deacon, and explained my situation (adding that I wished I'd just bought a pair of his monos instead). Fortunately, he was very helpful and agreed to complete the builds at a very fair price.

James Romeyn sent the modules and they arrived at D-Sonic yesterday, Oct. 22nd. When completed next week, the modules will be installed in D-Sonic cases and should look and sound just like an original pair of M3-600M mono-blocks, which is totally fine with me. Since the ALC modules have been discontinued, the current D-Sonic M3-600M-A monos now use the newer Anaview/Abletec AMS-1000-2600 modules and D-Sonic signifies this with the "-A" designation and a small increase in price.

If all goes well, which I no longer assume things wlll, I could take delivery in about 2 weeks.

If anyone is still interested, I was still planning on giving regular reports on my impressions of their performance once they're up and running in my system.

I'll try to give updates as events dictate.

Thanks,
Tim

Jtsnead,

I'm glad you're enjoying your new D-Sonic M3-800 amps. I've noticed there are very few reports from people regretting buying D-Sonic amps, whether stereo, multi- channel or monos. Everybody seems very satisfied with these amps.

Sebollo001/Sebastian,

You preferring the D-Sonic M3-600-M-A amps over such well respected amps like the McIntosh C601 monos, says a lot about the quality of the D-Sonics. I'm glad you're enjoying them and hope I enjoy my soon to arrive M3-600-M amps as much.

I'm a bit surprised, and concerned, that you think the Oppo 105 may not perform well in the mid to high frequencies.

I've been using JRiver on my laptop to wirelessly stream ripped cd and FLAC 96khz/24bit files from a Synology NAS to my Oppo 105. The Oppo acts as the Media Renderer/ Media Player with the digital signals converted by its built in Saber dac.

The Oppo's rather low 100 ohm output impedance is a good match with my Class D Audio 440CS amp's specified input impedance of greater than 57k ohms. This system performs very well from top to bottom; solid and textured bass with a smooth but detailed midrange and treble. It may be that my current system's very good impedance matching is a big contributor to its excellent performance.

The D-Sonic M3-600-M amps, having no custom input stage raising the input impedance, therefore have the same input impedance as the ALC-1000-1300 amp modules themselves, which is listed as a rather low 9-13k ohms. This isn't a really bad match since the Oppo's impedance is so low at 100, but it's not as good a match as it is with my current 440CS amp.

So, the big question is, does this less than ideal Oppo-to-D-Sonic amp impedance matching result in the poor midrange-treble performance that Sebastien noted with this combo? I sure hope not but I'll report back after I have the amps in my system for awhile.

Sebastian,

I know your Benchmark Dac2 has an adjustable output impedance feature. Did you need to lower the output impedance setting to achieve your very good mid-treble performance? If so, could you let me know your output impedance setting?

Worst case, if I notice subpar midrange and treble performance, I believe there are devices you can insert between the preamp/source and amp to better match impedances. I'll start researching these just in case.

Later,
Tim

Hi all,

Well, I actually received my M3-600-M completed amps back from D-Sonic Saturdrday. Before I go into more detail, I first want to respond to a few recent posters:

10-31-14: Njs
"Dollar for dollar you will be far more rewarded (and financially solvent) prioritizing: 1) speakers and their appropriate placement, 2) quality sources, 3) preamplifiers, and 4) appropriate room treatments ahead of amplifiers.

With that said, I am enjoying the holy hell out of my new D-Sonic amplifiers."

Njs,

I agree with everything you posted. I am still thrilled with the performance of my speakers, Magnepan 2.7qr, for both ht and 2-channel music. They are older speakers but are in like new condition and I think I have their positioning dialed in since they have that disappearing quality where you tend to forget the sound is coming from two 6ft tall and 2ft wide panels. I position the speakers 3 feet out from the front wall for ht/tv/background music listening and about 5 feet out for optimal sound staging for a more enjoyable music listening experience that gives a solid 3-D illusion that is wide and deep and gives the sense that the performers are in your living room or you've been transported to their location.

I previously upgraded my source from an older Sony DVD-7700, a very good cd/dvd player that had served me well for 10 yrs, to a more up to date Oppo 105 blu-ray player. I also added a laptop running JRiver Media Center controlling a 20TB Synology NAS that's backed up by a 20TB Seagate hard drive. This brought me into the 21st century utilizing computer audio playback. I now have my entire cd collection residing on the NAS, along with a number of hi-rez 96khz/24 bit FLAC music files, which are wirelessly streamed to the Oppo that serves as both a Media Renderer and Media Player. The Oppo also serves as a very good internal DAC, utilizing Saber 9018 dac chips, that converts the incoming digital signals to analog and outputs these to my amps via balanced XLR outputs and cables.

Lastly, the Oppo contains a very good internal surround processor and preamp section. This allowed me to eliminate my external surround processor and tubed VTL 2.5 preamp, with ht bypass, from the audio chain.

I was amazed, when comparing my system with and without the VTL included, that the sound without the tubes and VTL sounded just as sweet only utilizing the Oppo's completely solid-state built in preamp section. I thought there's no need to include the additional VTL preamp in the audio chain when its only purpose would be as a moderately expensive tube buffer that's not needed.

I want to note, however, that the combo of my beloved VTL preamp, having NOS Mullard tubes and an upgraded power supply, with my ClassD Audio 440CS amp produced excellent results. I would definitely suggest any class D amp owners, or those contemplating buying one, would benefit by pairing it with a tubed preamp.

As fortune has it, I just happen to have a nice one for sale if anyone is interested in buying it. It's a black unit, with HT Bypass but no phono section, that is in like new condition with zero flaws. I bought it new in 2006 from a local dealer (msrp was $2,500 at the time) here in central Indiana near Indy. I sent it to VTL this year due to noise in 1 channel. It turned out to be a bad 12AU7 Mullard tube. VTL replaced both 12AU7 tubes with new standard issue tubes and also upgraded the power supply to the current model's improved supply for $200.00. I have the original box, packing, manual and remote and am asking $1,050.00. Send me an Audiogon pm if interested.

The only priority I haven't addressed from Njs's list is room treatments, which I plan on looking into soon.

Mcbuddah,

You seem to be another very satisfied D-Sonic customer with your well broken in pair of M2-600-M amps, especially since you were coming from such a well respected Atma-Sphere amp. I believe your amps use the identical Abletec1000-1300 modules as my M3-600-M amps. I hope I am as pleased with mine as you seem to be with yours.

Sebollo001/Sebastian,

I'm pleased, and more than a bit relieved, to report that the Oppo has no impedance matching issues with the D-Sonic amps. I've already discovered, although thus far only with satellite tv audio as a source, that the D-Sonics possess the same smooth mids to treble attributes of my former ClassD Audio amp but with even more detail present.

You initially had me a bit concerned so I asked D-Sonic about this. They didn't think I'd have a problem since other customers have used their amps direct from Oppos with no issues. But thank you for your subsequent clarifying post.

Mdemaio,

Thanks for the info on the new Red Dragon amp but I'm now committed to the Abletec/D-Sonics, at least for a while.

Guido,
You can always be relied upon for accurate and up to date class D information, thanks.

Okay, now back to my D-Sonic adventures:

The new amps are now installed in my system with my existing cabling. I have each mono on a Steve Blinn maple platform with 4 brass spiked footers on each, The stands/amps are positioned within 6" of the inside edge of each speaker on the carpeted floor.

I let the amps sit for a few hours after unboxing to let them adjust to room temp before installing. After startup, I just eased them in running satellite tv sound through the rest of Saturday's day1 with a 2 hour exception that night: we had friends over and watched "Lone Survivor", an action film with plenty of combat scenes, gun fire, helicopters and explosions. I'm now using my prior class D amp, with 220/440watts @ 8/4 ohms to power my 8 ohm passive sub and 4 ohm center channel and retired my former older class A/B Adcom 100 watt amp from the same duties.

I did crank up the volume to theater level for the movie and the performance of the new amps was outstanding. Overall, I noticed improved dynamics, improved details and a generally even more immersive quality in my ht system. However, l believe the increase in power and quality of the sub and cc amplification ( older adcom 100 watts to newer ClassD Audio 220-440 watts) was also a big contributor to the improved system performance, along with the increase in power and quality of the front L+R channel amplification (ClassD Audio/ IRS amp module at 440 watts to D-Sonic/Abletec ALC amp module at over 1,000 watts into my 4 ohm speakers) that clearly improved detail retrieval and bass quality and quantity from my 2.7 speakers.

I'll be checking the new amps out with music in the next few days. I'll let you know my initial impressions soon and try to update as the amps break in.

I'll also give an update as to whether the James Romeyn custom cabling has any detectable affect on system performance, once they arrive and had a chance to listen for a while.

I'm very happy and relieved that my new amps are finally installed in my system. I've already determined that these amps are excellent performers as ht amps.
I'm now looking forward to just relaxing and listening to lots of familiar, and hopefully some new, music to determine how these amps perform with musical content.

Later,
Tim

Finsup,

Finsup:

"WHAT!!! The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor??? When?!!

Man, visiting the USS Arizona Memorial was on my bucket list too."

Finsup,

I Just threw that in for fun, no disrespect intended.

That's actually a quote from the movie Animal House when John Belushi's character, Blutto, is trying to motivate his fellow fraternity members to not give up after Dean Wormer placed their fraternity on 'double-secret probation'. Mayhem ensues.

Please don't let my goofiness dissuade you from paying your respects at the USS Arizona Memorial.

Thanks,
Tim

I recall Hifial, whose judgement I respect and believe owns or has listened to both in his system, state that the Hypex Nc400 module, while sounding very good, is not in the same league as the Nc1200 module.
I would think Hypex is aware of this and, being the amp designers of both, knows why;perhaps some proprietary technology utilized in the nc1200 that's not used in the nc400.
From my perspective, they are now offering a new module to OEMs that incorporates this superior technology in a less expensive and somewhat lower power form. This may be an effort to capture back some of the sales lost to Abletec and Pascal based amps.
As Hifial put it: to put the less expensive module/amps 'in the same league' performance and sound wise as the ncore 1200 modules.
This is all pure speculation on my part and just food for thought.

Tim

It seems to me that many OEM amp manufacturers,when it comes to disclosing which class D amp modules they employ in their products, prefer by design ambiguity over clarity. Understandable to an extent but, as Macrojack so eloquently observed, speculating on which modules used is making me feel like a teenage girl.

Yesterday, I felt like a little Mexican, but I cured that easy enough with 2 steak tostados.

Huh?
Tim

My opinion is that Bruno and Hypex had a strategy before they launched/released their 1st modules. They knew what they had the ability to build modules of a wide variety of power outputs as well as a wide range of sonic performance levels; from a basic/'vanilla' grade with their own discrete input section to a high performance grade that had a standard ic input section that OEMs could easily replace with their own proprietary input sections tailored to the OEM's own preferences.

The strategy consisted of releasing:

1, A lower,but still respectfully, powered module to the DIY market as the NC400. This module would have a basic discrete input section since many DIYers may not have the skills needed to build their own. Pricing would be reasonably low to spur DIY sales.

2. The highest powered module would be released to the p.a. and home audio amplifier manufacturers (OEMs). This module would have a simple ic input section that could easily be removed and replaced by the OEM's custom inputs that they design themselves and that tailor the sound to their needs and sound preferences. These would be unique and proprietary to each OEM. Pricing would be relatively high and be restricted to OEMs only.

3.

My opinion is that Bruno and Hypex had a strategy before they released their 1st modules. They knew that they had the ability to build modules of a wide variety of power outputs as well as a wide range of sonic performance levels; from a basic/'vanilla' grade with their own discrete input section to a high performance grade that would come with a standard ic input section that OEMs could easily replace with their own proprietary input sections tailored to the OEM's own preferences. Hypex would offer input section fee-based design assistance from Hypex engineers so that OEMs could attain the highest performance levels from these modules if desired.

The strategy consisted of releasing:

1, A lower,but still respectfully, powered module to the DIY market as the NC400. This module would have a basic discrete input section since many DIYers may not have the skills needed to build their own. Pricing would be reasonably low to spur DIY sales.

2. A very high powered module, the NC1200, to the p.a. and home audio amplifier manufacturers (OEMs). This module would have a simple ic input section that could easily be removed and replaced by the OEM's custom inputs that they would design themselves, or with the fee-based assistance of Hypex engineers, that tailors the sound to their preferences and wrings the highest known level of performance from the modules. These would be unique and proprietary to each OEM. Pricing would be relatively high and be restricted to OEMs only.

3. There would be a series of other modules, at various power output levels, that could be released to the DIY or OEM markets at Hypex'a discretion based on demand and market conditions. These modules would be produced with the basic input sections if intended for the DIY market or easily replaced ic input sections if intended for the OEM market. Hypex engineers would only be available to OEMs.

My opinion, unsubstantiated by anything remotely resembling proof, is that Hypex has insider knowledge of how to wring a high level of performance from any of their modules, no matter the power output. I think this knowledge is available, but only to OEMs and only for a fee. The #1 goal of any business is to leveredge their resources, which includes proprietary knowledge, to maximize profits.

Again, this is only my 2 cents worth, based mainly on a bachelors degree in Economics and some resultant knowledge concerning how corporations generally behave and operate.

Thanks,
Tim

12/23/14 Update:

I received my D-Sonic M3-600M monoblocks, containing the Abletec ALC-1000-1300 power modules, a few weeks ago. My original plan was to place each amp on the carpeted floor atop spiked maple amp stands 6" inside each speaker. To increase vibration isolation, however, I bought a low rise audio cabinet to accommodate both amps. This rack is low (only 14" tall)and wide (5 ft) and has a maple wood top with front pull-down doors that conceal my surround amps. The rack sits directly below a wall-mounted 65" hdtv, which leaves a 10" space between the top of the maple rack platform and the bottom of the tv above. One amp, each atop its own maple amp stand with brass cone footers, is positioned on each end of the rack platform near each speaker, with my source positioned between the amps.

After delivery, I started to break them in slowly using satellite tv with a 1-2 hour exception that evening when we watched a war movie, "Lone Survivor", on HBO when I had the volume set at about theater level throughout. The new amps sound very similar to my former ClassD Audio 440CS amp, with a dead quiet background and an accurate sound but with even more detail and much more powerful dynamics. These amps definitely excel in ht duties since they are very powerful, run cool and are relatively small.

I've played almost all of my familiar music on these amps over the past 2 weeks, stored as APE files for cds and FLAC files for a handful of 24bit/96khz downloads. I would characterize the music playback as very smooth but with very good detail at the same time. My previous amp had these same qualities but I have the sense that the noise floor is now even lower with the D-Sonics and this made the smoothness and detail of the sound more obvious. Clear improvements were evident in the sound stage illusion and dynamics. The sound stage was just as wide and deep but images are more solid, dimensional and stable. I;m now able to concentrate on individual musicians/instruments and distinctly hear variations in tone and volume on good recordings. This is new to me and I find it really adds to my musical enjoyment. The D-Sonics produced the same illusion of 'being in the room', or 'the musicians being in my room', as my former amp did but with even more intensity and realism. The In general, I'd say the new amps have elevated my system's music playback performance, and my enjoyment, by a significant amount.

I stated previously that I'd update at regular intervals and report on changes I notice as the amps 'break-in'. However, I honestly haven't noticed any changes in performance thus far. Either there's been no audible changes yet or my hearing may not be as sensitive as I thought. It could be the aging process,I'm 56 now, and can't remember my last hearing test. Anyway, I'm not going to stop listening to music, so I'll try and stay alert for any subtle changes I notice and report back when I do on this thread.

Over the past few months, I've also been involved in trying to upgrade my system's bass performance. It's still fairly good, but I'm using a 20 plus year old Synergistics passive sub to augment the bass response for speakers that only go down to 37 hz. I purchased a replacement bass system that is scheduled to arrive within the next 2 days. It consists of 4 67 pound passive subs powered by a separate amp. After an extensive search, I bought James Romeyn's demo DEBRA bass system that entails a fairly elaborate setup procedure.

If anyone's interested, I'll probably be starting a new thread on this bass system in the next few days. The system claims accurate bass response down to 20hz,+ or-/3db or less. I'll be using this for both ht and music. The pictures and description listed on the link below are of the demo system I bought:

Go to www.jamesromeyn.com. Click on "Audiophile Gear" and then on "DEBRA Bass System".

Thanks,

Tim

Hi Mcbuddah,

Very good to know the M3-600-M's improve over playing time. With my first class d amp, a stereo ClassD Audio 440CS, I recall the amp sounding better and better over an extended period of time before it seemed to stabilize. I tought, at the time, that this was more a case of me adapting to the nuances of class d amplification as opposed to the amp actually 'breaking in'. It's a subtle distinction that's hard to validate one way or the other. I chalked the difference up to the fact I was moving from a class A/B Aragon 4004 to a different class d amp technology.

From my subjective perspective, there was a definite improvement in my system's performance moving from class A/B to class D. This improvement was over a period of about 2-3 months and it was not subtle in nature.

Since my latest change was from one class D amp to another and my ears/brain aural sensing mechanisms have already been indoctrinated to and adapted to the 'class D sound', the change in system performance was less dramatic than it was when I switched from class A/B to class D. Don't get me wrong, there are significant and obvious improvements in several areas with the M-600 amps; it's just that I'm not noticing any clear pattern of gradual improvements in amp performance that I would recognize as the amps 'breaking in'.

To complicate matters, I recently added a multi-sub bass system (described in an earlier post on this thread) that was truly transformational to my system's overall performance. Bass response is now very extended and accurate; measured down to 20hz within 2 dbs and without any measured or noticeable bass modes or nulls at the seating positions. This has unexpectedly resulted in performers/instruments now seemingly occupying well defined palpable and physical space in my living room, the better the recording the better the imaginary affect. My current theory is that this ultra-realism and stable sound staging has distracted me from noticing smaller and more gradual changes in the amps' performance that may be extant over time.

In other words, I'm currently so over-the-moon happy with my system's top-to-bottom rock solid frequency integration and ultra-realism, I've either failed to notice incremental changes in the M-600's behavior or I've ceased to care whether its primary cause is the new amps or the new bass system. All I know for certain is that my system is now functioning extremely well for both 2-channel computer audio and home theater sources. It's hard for me to pinpoint any weaknesses and areas needing improvement. But that won't prevent my continued enjoyment of both nor searching for possible system improvements. I understand that my system is now operating at a stunningly high level and any future improvements will be harder to identify, likely cost prohibitive, less dramatic and more incremental. But this is all just fine with me. I'm going to enjoy the fruits of my efforts and switch my searches to finding some more good music that is well recorded and high resolution. After all, I still have about 1.5 TBs of storage to fill up.

Thanks to all of you who helped me on my long but successful journey,

Tim

Tobeornottobe,

I think you choose domestic or foreign voltage when you place your order. Which means you'd probably need D-Sonic to switch it from one to the other but you may want to call D-Sonic to make sure.

Tim

Sebollo001,

Your warm to neutral performance reference from 6 Moons's Srajan Ebaen is very helpful and puts things nicely in perspective:

"BTW, you may find interesting the following assessment from a very experienced reviewer (who tested all following amps). This would be the "warm" to "detailed" current class D scale, according to 6moons owner Srajan Ebaen:

Pascal (Gato D-250) -> ICEPower (mAmp) -> Hypex UcD (Auralic, Roksan) -> Hypex nCore (Merril Veritas) -> Anaview AMS (Amphion AMS100)

After a few months of use, I would place the D-Sonic M3-600M mono-blocks, using the older Anaview/Abletec ALC-1000-1300 modules, clearly on the neutral end of the scale. To me, my experience and this scale verifies Dennis Deacon's comment that the Anaview AMS and older Anaview ALC modules (used in the D-Sonic M3-600M-A and M3-600M amps, respectively) sound similar with both being neutral amps.

I highly recommend these amps, especially with the newer 600-M-A models reported to be even better.

Anyone wanting more warmth could add a tube preamp. Just make sure you pick out one that you like the sound of since these amps are very neutral and any upstream components will be revealed, good better or in between.

Tim