Hello Hifial,
I did not respond to your very good post on my previous post because I only saw it today, your post date makes it appear like I just ignored your thoughtful and articulate comments on that post. I assure you that I just read them a few minutes ago at about 8am Thursday morning.
I'm thinking that Audiogon didn't post thread replies immediately and the sequence of when members actually hit'Submit now' and replied was not mirrored accurately beause of Audiogon delays in the actual system posting to the graphic interface screens all members see on their screens. In other words, when I hit 'Submit now'on 5/14 in my previous reply, your reply on 5/14 was not posted and visible to other members, including me. This issue is somewhat hard to articulate but I've experienced this issue before on Audiogon and I hope you understand my explanation. I've had numerous cases of several hour delays between hitting'Submit now' and actually seeing it posted on the thread. Audiogon keeps these issues pretty hush hush and never really acknowledges the problem but I'm certain it exists and it seems to be getting worse, not better.
Anyway, to remedy this, I copied your post below and included my response in quotation marks below each of your numbered points/comments:
Hifial:
I have been following this thread and have a few points.
1) Have had both an NC400 and an NC1200 (Veritas) in my system.
As good (really good) as the NC400 is it is in NO WAY 90% of the NC1200 in sound. The NC1200, if done right, is in a WHOLE different league.
noble100: "I've always respected your opinions and trust the accuracy of your impression. My budget of $2,500 is 20% of the price of the Merrill Veritas. It seems like I was overly optimistic expecting the nc400 to be 90% of the nc1200 in sq. Hopefully, I'll get lucky and obtain 20% of the the nc1200's sq. If you think 20% is still too optimistic, perhaps the better strategy is trying the newer Abletec or Pascal amps since both at least have the potential of obtaining a higher percentage similarity to the nc1200 than the nc400 can obtain."
2) It REALLY does matter who and how they build these amps. And the quality of the parts and cases DO matter. The little things DO make a difference in the quality of the sound.
So if you go the DIY route make sure who ever does it KNOWS what they are doing.
noble100: "Both amp builders I'm considering, James Romeyn for the nc400 and Aluminati for the Pascal SPRO-2 build, have considerable amp assembly experience and understand the importance of using quality parts and isolation in amp layout. For parts, they utilize Neutrik xlr jacks, Cardas rca input jacks and speaker terminals along with silver teflon internal wiring. For isolation, they physically separate the power modules from the nc600 or nc1200 smps modules within the enclosure, route connecting wires through shielded metal channels and use internal and external vibration reducing materials, panels and footers."
3) The NC400 is ONLY a DIY. Hypex is very aggressive about that. So if a "builder" decides to use a different brand that may be or be part of the reason for the change.
noble100: "I have no knowledge of Hypex taking actions to curtail the use of their nc400 modules by either builder but you may be correct as far as I know. James Romeyn is still building nc400 based amps. Aluminati has stated they have ceased building nc400 amps due to dwindling demand. After extended listening to a Pascal supplied SPRO-2 stereo sample board, both Aluminati owners thought it was an advancement in sq performance from their Hypex stereo amp build (that consisted of dual nc400 modules both driven by a single nc1200 smps) and thought it would be a likely candidate for future high build demand once word spreads of its high performance, relatively lower cost and the built in smps contained on each amp module board.
I understand the reservation of the nc400 modules for the diy community is a type of homage and reward by Hypex/Bruno P. to them for their early and continued support of his earlier ucd modules. However, I have 2 issues with their aggressive enforcement of this decision:
1. Knowing first-hand how good their OEM nc1200 performed and the likely very high retail price of amps that utilized it would be, how did they overlook the somewhat obvious causal reaction of higher demand for the only Hypex modules that were available for non-OEM purchase, the nc400 modules?
2. Once Hypex realized the higher than expected sales of their "DIY reserved" nc400 modules, they decide to 'aggressively crackdown' on suspected amp builders like they're committing a crime rather than just increasing production. They don't realize that the likely amp builders are likely to be DIYers with the experience, skills and tools to be able to build amps at anything approaching an efficient rate and in significant quantities? They didn't realize that not everyone has the skills time and desire to assemble their own amp? They didn't realize these individuals might hire DIYers to build nc400 based amps for them? Do they realize these amp builders are just trying to make a little extra money from their uniquely well suited skills and that none of them are getting rich from their endeavors and no cmpany revenue is being pirated? Don't they realize Hypex sales and revenue are only positively affected by nc400 amp builders? Do they not realize they are aggressively cracking down on the same DIYers they wanted to reward? If Hypex sold dishwashers and 'reserved' a lower quality model just for homebuilders, would they aggressively crack down on homebuilders that bought too many of their lower quality and lower priced models because they bought extra units to sell to homeowner remodelers interested in the low cost but surprisingly high quality of these supposedly lower quality dishwashers that were rated by many to be of higher quality than their current dishwasher? Okay, I'm calming down now but I have just one final question for Hypex: WTF? Are there issues with nc400 amp building I'm not getting?"
4) One day I would love the chance to hear the Pascal and Albetec Class D amps. The more the better and the better sound for Audiophiles.
noble100: "Amen, I'm in complete agreement. Hi-end sound us for the masses at semi-affordable prices? If that day's coming, I'm all for it. Today, class D amp prices span a wide range, from under $1k as a low price (several Class D Audio stereo amps to a high of about $45k/pair (Marten mono-blocks from Scandinavia). I would be very interested in a review of selected class d amps from these price extremes and various price points in between."
5) I agree with Merrill. The Maggie speakers will sound great with the amps he suggests for the reasons he states. A club member who has a pair tried the NC1200 and he said his system never sounded better. At the time he was using one of the better ARC mono amps.
noble100: "I would probably stretch and buy the Veritas at $12.5k if I wasn't currently spending large amounts of $$ on a total kitchen remodel. But I've already spent more than the cost of the Veritas on the remodel and we have a little more to do. So, I need to stick to my $2,500 budget for the amp. As I mentioned earlier in my previous post, Since I'm unable to audition any of these prior to purchase, I've decided to just start with buying one of my amp options and trying it out in my system. If I love it, I'll keep it until I decide to try something new or something better comes along down the road. If I'm not thrilled, I'll either return it if allowed or sell it if not allowed, I'll then buy the next one on my list and repeat. If, by the time I've tried all 3, I'm still not thrilled with at least one then I'll create a new list of contenders and try again. Unless someone has a better idea, here is the order I've come up with:
1st: Pascal SPRO-2/Aluminati Sound build for the reasons I explained in response to Hifial's 1st point above and because Merrill, whose opinion and class D amp accomplishments I respect, stated the Pascal has a good chance to sound good due to the module's low impedance output which should offer improved control of my Magnepan 2.7qr speaakers.
2nd: Abletec module/DSonic M3-600M mono-blocks for reasons I also explained in response to Hifial's 1st point above and because Hifial thinks it has a better chance to sound really good than the nc400.
3rd: Hypex nc400 because Hifial, who has auditioned both the nc400 and nc1200/Veritas in his own system, doesn't consider the nc400 as in the same league as the nc1200.So, I have high hopes for the 1st and 2nd options but much lower expectations of this option.
6) As good as the Bel Canto amps are, I like them a lot, I agree with Guido that times have changed.
noble100: "I agree, better potential sq improvement with a newer class D module than a pre-Hypex ncore module."
7) Tim, I see your price range is $2,500 but can you add to this if need be? I ask this because you might be putting all your eggs in one basket. As good as the Oppo is you might be better served by getting a stand alone DAC and a new amp. I have heard the Oppo in several members systems and then when the put in a reasonable priced DAC it really took their system up a notch. There are some great sounding DACs out there for a reasonable price. Say from around $1,000 to $2,000 new and less on the used market. Think Teac, Benchmark, BMC and Lynx Studio. And sometimes there are some really great DACs that cost $2,500-$2,800 new but can be had for as little as $2,000-$1,700 used.
I think the combo of an well built NC400 or Albetec with one of the above DACs would something for you to consider if you can.
noble100: " Sure, I'm open to trying a good used standalone dac with the Pascal or Abletec based amp. I just need a bit of time to financially recuperate after the remodel is done in a few weeks."
I'll try to start a thread on the Pascal/Aluminati Sound stereo amp impressions after I listen for a few months.But I won't even receive this amp (Matt Kraemer said I'll be getting SN 0001-which I think is kinda cool).
Thanks to everyone for your assistance throughout this thread, it's been very helpful,
Tim
I did not respond to your very good post on my previous post because I only saw it today, your post date makes it appear like I just ignored your thoughtful and articulate comments on that post. I assure you that I just read them a few minutes ago at about 8am Thursday morning.
I'm thinking that Audiogon didn't post thread replies immediately and the sequence of when members actually hit'Submit now' and replied was not mirrored accurately beause of Audiogon delays in the actual system posting to the graphic interface screens all members see on their screens. In other words, when I hit 'Submit now'on 5/14 in my previous reply, your reply on 5/14 was not posted and visible to other members, including me. This issue is somewhat hard to articulate but I've experienced this issue before on Audiogon and I hope you understand my explanation. I've had numerous cases of several hour delays between hitting'Submit now' and actually seeing it posted on the thread. Audiogon keeps these issues pretty hush hush and never really acknowledges the problem but I'm certain it exists and it seems to be getting worse, not better.
Anyway, to remedy this, I copied your post below and included my response in quotation marks below each of your numbered points/comments:
Hifial:
I have been following this thread and have a few points.
1) Have had both an NC400 and an NC1200 (Veritas) in my system.
As good (really good) as the NC400 is it is in NO WAY 90% of the NC1200 in sound. The NC1200, if done right, is in a WHOLE different league.
noble100: "I've always respected your opinions and trust the accuracy of your impression. My budget of $2,500 is 20% of the price of the Merrill Veritas. It seems like I was overly optimistic expecting the nc400 to be 90% of the nc1200 in sq. Hopefully, I'll get lucky and obtain 20% of the the nc1200's sq. If you think 20% is still too optimistic, perhaps the better strategy is trying the newer Abletec or Pascal amps since both at least have the potential of obtaining a higher percentage similarity to the nc1200 than the nc400 can obtain."
2) It REALLY does matter who and how they build these amps. And the quality of the parts and cases DO matter. The little things DO make a difference in the quality of the sound.
So if you go the DIY route make sure who ever does it KNOWS what they are doing.
noble100: "Both amp builders I'm considering, James Romeyn for the nc400 and Aluminati for the Pascal SPRO-2 build, have considerable amp assembly experience and understand the importance of using quality parts and isolation in amp layout. For parts, they utilize Neutrik xlr jacks, Cardas rca input jacks and speaker terminals along with silver teflon internal wiring. For isolation, they physically separate the power modules from the nc600 or nc1200 smps modules within the enclosure, route connecting wires through shielded metal channels and use internal and external vibration reducing materials, panels and footers."
3) The NC400 is ONLY a DIY. Hypex is very aggressive about that. So if a "builder" decides to use a different brand that may be or be part of the reason for the change.
noble100: "I have no knowledge of Hypex taking actions to curtail the use of their nc400 modules by either builder but you may be correct as far as I know. James Romeyn is still building nc400 based amps. Aluminati has stated they have ceased building nc400 amps due to dwindling demand. After extended listening to a Pascal supplied SPRO-2 stereo sample board, both Aluminati owners thought it was an advancement in sq performance from their Hypex stereo amp build (that consisted of dual nc400 modules both driven by a single nc1200 smps) and thought it would be a likely candidate for future high build demand once word spreads of its high performance, relatively lower cost and the built in smps contained on each amp module board.
I understand the reservation of the nc400 modules for the diy community is a type of homage and reward by Hypex/Bruno P. to them for their early and continued support of his earlier ucd modules. However, I have 2 issues with their aggressive enforcement of this decision:
1. Knowing first-hand how good their OEM nc1200 performed and the likely very high retail price of amps that utilized it would be, how did they overlook the somewhat obvious causal reaction of higher demand for the only Hypex modules that were available for non-OEM purchase, the nc400 modules?
2. Once Hypex realized the higher than expected sales of their "DIY reserved" nc400 modules, they decide to 'aggressively crackdown' on suspected amp builders like they're committing a crime rather than just increasing production. They don't realize that the likely amp builders are likely to be DIYers with the experience, skills and tools to be able to build amps at anything approaching an efficient rate and in significant quantities? They didn't realize that not everyone has the skills time and desire to assemble their own amp? They didn't realize these individuals might hire DIYers to build nc400 based amps for them? Do they realize these amp builders are just trying to make a little extra money from their uniquely well suited skills and that none of them are getting rich from their endeavors and no cmpany revenue is being pirated? Don't they realize Hypex sales and revenue are only positively affected by nc400 amp builders? Do they not realize they are aggressively cracking down on the same DIYers they wanted to reward? If Hypex sold dishwashers and 'reserved' a lower quality model just for homebuilders, would they aggressively crack down on homebuilders that bought too many of their lower quality and lower priced models because they bought extra units to sell to homeowner remodelers interested in the low cost but surprisingly high quality of these supposedly lower quality dishwashers that were rated by many to be of higher quality than their current dishwasher? Okay, I'm calming down now but I have just one final question for Hypex: WTF? Are there issues with nc400 amp building I'm not getting?"
4) One day I would love the chance to hear the Pascal and Albetec Class D amps. The more the better and the better sound for Audiophiles.
noble100: "Amen, I'm in complete agreement. Hi-end sound us for the masses at semi-affordable prices? If that day's coming, I'm all for it. Today, class D amp prices span a wide range, from under $1k as a low price (several Class D Audio stereo amps to a high of about $45k/pair (Marten mono-blocks from Scandinavia). I would be very interested in a review of selected class d amps from these price extremes and various price points in between."
5) I agree with Merrill. The Maggie speakers will sound great with the amps he suggests for the reasons he states. A club member who has a pair tried the NC1200 and he said his system never sounded better. At the time he was using one of the better ARC mono amps.
noble100: "I would probably stretch and buy the Veritas at $12.5k if I wasn't currently spending large amounts of $$ on a total kitchen remodel. But I've already spent more than the cost of the Veritas on the remodel and we have a little more to do. So, I need to stick to my $2,500 budget for the amp. As I mentioned earlier in my previous post, Since I'm unable to audition any of these prior to purchase, I've decided to just start with buying one of my amp options and trying it out in my system. If I love it, I'll keep it until I decide to try something new or something better comes along down the road. If I'm not thrilled, I'll either return it if allowed or sell it if not allowed, I'll then buy the next one on my list and repeat. If, by the time I've tried all 3, I'm still not thrilled with at least one then I'll create a new list of contenders and try again. Unless someone has a better idea, here is the order I've come up with:
1st: Pascal SPRO-2/Aluminati Sound build for the reasons I explained in response to Hifial's 1st point above and because Merrill, whose opinion and class D amp accomplishments I respect, stated the Pascal has a good chance to sound good due to the module's low impedance output which should offer improved control of my Magnepan 2.7qr speaakers.
2nd: Abletec module/DSonic M3-600M mono-blocks for reasons I also explained in response to Hifial's 1st point above and because Hifial thinks it has a better chance to sound really good than the nc400.
3rd: Hypex nc400 because Hifial, who has auditioned both the nc400 and nc1200/Veritas in his own system, doesn't consider the nc400 as in the same league as the nc1200.So, I have high hopes for the 1st and 2nd options but much lower expectations of this option.
6) As good as the Bel Canto amps are, I like them a lot, I agree with Guido that times have changed.
noble100: "I agree, better potential sq improvement with a newer class D module than a pre-Hypex ncore module."
7) Tim, I see your price range is $2,500 but can you add to this if need be? I ask this because you might be putting all your eggs in one basket. As good as the Oppo is you might be better served by getting a stand alone DAC and a new amp. I have heard the Oppo in several members systems and then when the put in a reasonable priced DAC it really took their system up a notch. There are some great sounding DACs out there for a reasonable price. Say from around $1,000 to $2,000 new and less on the used market. Think Teac, Benchmark, BMC and Lynx Studio. And sometimes there are some really great DACs that cost $2,500-$2,800 new but can be had for as little as $2,000-$1,700 used.
I think the combo of an well built NC400 or Albetec with one of the above DACs would something for you to consider if you can.
noble100: " Sure, I'm open to trying a good used standalone dac with the Pascal or Abletec based amp. I just need a bit of time to financially recuperate after the remodel is done in a few weeks."
I'll try to start a thread on the Pascal/Aluminati Sound stereo amp impressions after I listen for a few months.But I won't even receive this amp (Matt Kraemer said I'll be getting SN 0001-which I think is kinda cool).
Thanks to everyone for your assistance throughout this thread, it's been very helpful,
Tim