2. misc-audio
  3. 1243114910

I Just Don't Hear It - I wish I did

I am frustrated because I am an audiophile who cannot discern details from so many of the methods praised by other audiophiles. I joke about not having golden ears. That said, I can easily discern and appreciate good soundstage, image, balance, tone, timbre, transparency and even the synergy of a system. I am however unable to hear the improvements that result from, say a piece of Teflon tape or a $5.00 item from the plumbing aisle at Home Depot. Furthermore, I think it is grossly unfair that I must pay in multiples of one hundred, or even one thousand just to gain relatively slight improvements in transparency, detail, timbre soundstage, etc., when other audiophiles can gain the same level of details from a ten dollar tweak. In an effort to sooth my frustration, I tell myself that my fellow audiophiles are experiencing a placebo effect of some sort. Does anyone else struggle to hear….no wait; does anyone else struggle to comprehend how someone else can hear the perceived benefits gained by the inclusion of any number of highly touted tweaks/gimmicks (brass screws, copper couplers, Teflon tape, maple hardwood, racquet balls, etc.) I mean, the claims are that these methods actually result in improved soundstage, image, detail (“blacker backgrounds”), clarity, bass definition, etc.
Am I alone in my frustration here?
2chnlben

Showing 15 responses by tvad

tvad
9,467 posts
 
2chnlben, sarcasm is often tricky to convey in print. I understand and relate to your skepticism. I suppose that's why I hold out hope that you will hear a change brought about by a tweak of some kind.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
You're not alone.

Sonic changes from tweaks are often subtle or inaudible to me. Especially when it comes to footers/isolation/coupling devices. I've never tried teflon tape.

I've tried Aurios, Rollerblocks, Boston TuneBlocs, sorbothane, Neuance platforms, Audiopoints, and a few other devices. I could hear subtle diferences between them, but nothing that caused an "Ah-Ha!" moment.

Then, Steve McCormack placed some Grand Prix Audio Apex footers under my preamp, and the "Ah-Ha!" moment happened. Was it because he was in the room, and I just wanted to believe I heard the difference? Honestly, I didn't want to hear the difference. The Apex are fairly expensive. I ended up experimenting with the Apex footers for a few weeks, and ultimately bought two pairs.

No, you're not alone, but sometimes it takes the right tweak to open the door.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
Some people will have more sensitive hearing than others. That doesn't mean those with less sensitive hearing have tin ears.
Jylee (System | Threads | Answers)
Absolutely.

However, it would explain why some people report larger differences resulting from tweaks than do other people.

I think it's pretty obvious that most audiophiles have keenly attuned hearing, whether it's a result of concentration, training over time, or better physiology. It's unreasonable to assume, though, that we all hear equally well.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
2chnlben, I thought you were opening a discussion about why some people
hear changes tweaks provide and why some people don't. You received some
honest replies.

I thought you were genuinely open minded on the topic, but it appears I was
mistaken. Your latest post suggests that you are of the opinion that
people who hear changes are kidding themselves...that they
are self delusional.

These threads always end up the same way. Objectivist arguing with
subjectivists, and no one ever meeting in the middle.

I hope that one day you have the good fortune to try a power cord,
interconnect, isolation device, contact paste...something...that allows you to
hear the difference it makes, regardless of whether it's good or bad.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
I completely agree that tweaks reslt in small changes when compared to
swapping components or speakers, which usually result in larger changes.

I don't prefer one over the other because I view them as totally different parts
of the process.

I view tweaking as something one does when their components and speakers
are satisfying and no further changes are expected in those areas. Then,
tweaks become fine tuning.

It doesn't make sense to expect tweaks to make large adjustments in a
system's sound. If that's the goal, then either a component or the speakers
need to be changed.

The benefit of buying used accessories, or by utilizing home trial periods is
that the accessory can be resold or returned if it makes no difference in the
system. It's a zero sum game.

Finally, there's no reason to be frustrated by not hearing the differences made
by tweaks. Everyone's system, expectations, and perceptions differ. We're not
clones.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
05-26-09: 2chnlben
...there are many who profess to hearing significant changes when incorporating a variety of relatively minor tweaks.

That goes to my statement that we all have different perceptions (and therefore different personal scales of the "wow!" factor).

Look, where I grew up, the most descriptive phrase when something was really good was, "It's fine.". It's fine? Not until I moved away did I experience people who actually got incredibly enthused about something and used exciting, descriptive language to express themselves.

Why let someone's personal perception be an insult to your intelligence? Why not accept that they perceive changes on a different scale than do you? Next time you try a tweak that in your opinion provides little change, and that someone else has described as jaw dropping, you'll know how to weigh that person's sensibilities relative to yours.

As I said, we're not clones. We all sense the world differently.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
People hear differently. Some better than others. Just as some people have better eyesight, sense of smell, and sense of taste. I am steadfast in this belief.

I'm a road bicyclist. Over the years, I have gone through periods of intense training. However, I know that no matter how much I trained, I would never be on the level of riders like Lance Armstrong, or any of the riders in the Grand Tours. Those guys simply have different cardio/pumlinary physiology than do I. Their hearts and lungs can process oxygen better, and their legs can process lactic acid better than mine. We won't get into the doping issue.

Just as a professional cyclist's physiology is better than mine, I am absolutely certain that hearing is different among humans as well. Some have keener, more sensitive ears.

2chnlben, although I know you will resist the notion, you may rest easier knowing that others possess naturally better hearing than you do, and in fact these people will hear differences brought about by tweaks whereas you will not. It will lessen your frustration if you realize and accept this.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
...be honest, that a very real and scientific phenomenon known as “the power of persuasion” (placebo effect if you will) is occurring, or that there is the phenomenon of extraordinary human achievement occurring!?

2chnlben (System | Threads | Answers)

Honestly, I believe it's pretty even between the placebo effect, and genuinely superior perception among those who can hear better than others. There's no question that once a sizable sum has been invested in a tweak, it's human nature to want to hear an improvement, and it's also human nature to viciously defend one's decision to spend the money when the decision is attacked as foolish.

I think your description of physiological superior hearing as a "phenomenon of extraordinary human achievement" is hyperbole that's unfair to the comparison you put forth, which I imagine was intended to be taken seriously.

I don't take any of this personally. It's a discussion.

However, I do believe that the discussion is either genuine, or it's mostly for fun and therefore interwoven with humor. It's unclear to me which direction this thread is taking.

Mapman, I disagree with your definition of a tweak to mean any change in a system. Perhaps, when we're discussion tweaks, we should all preface our posts with the definition of our personal definition of tweaking.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
Of course it’s hyperbole – as are the claims! That’s my
point.

2chnlben (System | Threads | Answers)

Well, I disagree that all the claims of hearing benefits resulting from tweaks
are hyperbole. That's my problem with your argument. You seem to be
lumping all reports of positive results as hyperbole.

Now, if by hype you're speaking only of the over-the-top reports of
"jaw-dropping", 25-50-100% improvements, then I agree.

Regarding the cable riser comment, if raising the cables off the floor
somehow reduced low level background noise (how, I cannot say), then I can
believe that the soundstage would open up, blacks would be blacker, and
more details would be heard. Reducing low level system noise is the primary
method of improving a system's sound, whether it's accomplished with better
component power supplies, AC filtering, power cord filtering, shielding of
interconnects, etc. Generally, the results of lower background noise are a
larger and clearer (blacker background) image with more detail. Low level
system noise often cannot be "heard" (like hum or hiss), but it's absence is
more easily detected.

Most tweaks that I'm aware of...and I mean things like isolation/vibration
control, AC tweaks, swapping in better capacitors, etc. reduce low level
background noise to some degree.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
Shadorne, the comment you quoted was regarding putting speaker cables on risers, not putting the speakers on risers.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
05-28-09: Nietzschelover
For one thing, people who design audio equipment are, generally, not the same ones who sell tweaks.

True.

However, Steve McCormack, a pretty well regarded designer of audio equipment, is very "tweaky". He's the one who introduced me to Grand Prix Audio Apex footers. He uses a Grand Prix Audio rack in his system, along with the Apex.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
C'mon 2chnlben, he's a Nietzschelover! Have you ever read Nietzsche? A bit less funny than, say, Vonnegut.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
Nope
tvad
9,467 posts
 
06-01-09: Douglas_schroeder
It appears that the stands raise the speaker about 6"? If so, that likely accounts for the majority of the difference in sonics.

I was thinking the same thing after reading Dopogue's post.
tvad
9,467 posts
 
Consider this...two autos, an American large sedan and a foreign high
performance, exotic sports car (any models of your choice). Would we agree that
the sports car is built and designed to higher tolerances and specifications, and
has a more technical engine, drive train and suspension than the large American
sedan? If we can agree on this point, then doesn't it follow that the sports car
would be more sensitive to "tweaks", eg changes in engine parts,
tires, brakes, shocks, etc?

I believe there are audio components that are analogous to the American large
sedan and to the high performance sports car. Components like the sports car
will display sonic changes when tweaked much more readily than will
components like the American sedan.

Both are fine choices, but they are built to different price points, and for
different automotive experiences.
More to discover