Aldo I have that Burrell's album, and do think that is great, Frogman's subject of great but now almost unknown players is more intriguing. So, I hope you all would not mind if I post yet another trumpet player, that has become 'famous' because of his obscurity. Oxymoron, I know. His name is Dupree Bolton, and here is link from a great album of Curtis Amy 'Katanga'. Ray Crawford is great too, as always. http://youtu.be/Oc6cJYn2T7Mhttp://youtu.be/RofQwbDY2YI |
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Maybe this album could make you change your mind? http://youtu.be/WoZZ08S4eywMy favourite would be Dean Martin, he makes me smile, always, Nat King Cole is something special, or Elvis, the King, but I could not say that Sinatra cant sing.I have one album of Mel Torme, but could not put him in the same category.Have you listened Johnny Hartman or Lou Rawls? |
...'I downgrade performers more than most if I don't like their persona'...
...'I won't even listen to Wagner because I loathe him as a person'...
I am afraid that doing so, by not distingushing personalitys from their art, you are narrowing your choise, because, to say at least, there are so many artist who have been known as troubled individuals, if we are going to belleive to history books or to written observations from those who knew them. Among them quite a few jazzmen, painters, writers, film makers or actors. For exmp. Chet Baker, Salvador Dali, Caravaggio,Dostoyevski, Kusturica or John Wayne, just to name first ones that came to my mind.
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Orpheus, or anyone else, do you know more about organ and piano player Billy Gardner? The other day I was listening some Chaarlie Rouse album, and piano player was great. It is the same man that played with Grant Green and Lou Donaldson as well, but little is known about him. Could someone tell more, please? Link, if somebody is interested... http://youtu.be/HfVmSOlw4WAhttp://youtu.be/_I3WXYncRrAThanks |
If I may join the conversation with small contribution. Album from Mal Waldron 'Left alone', her former pianist, from 1959. Here is the link, hop you will like it http://youtu.be/E7lIffL3xaQ |
For a gentleman who said that 'Seems as if all the Best Jazz, has the word 'Blues' in the title '...this is a fine album from artist who never got recogniion...like so many in jazz, I guess...here is the link http://youtu.be/8X4Tja54qLE |
Speaking of virtouso, Phineas Newborn was one, again, never received enough recognition. Here is the link where he is in the great company, with Paul Chambers and Roy Haynes, 1958. is the year, album 'Us three' http://youtu.be/Paxz3oCin7kThan again, if we are spaking of blues in jazz, this title says all, aldo the blues is not so really obvious, great album, never the less. Milt Jackson's 'Ballads and Blues' http://youtu.be/Paxz3oCin7k...line up is great,pity that Skeeter Best never recorded a solo album...as far as I know... |
My mistake, this is clip of Milt Jackson's 'Ballad and Blues' album, that I have mentioned in post above. http://youtu.be/axuGJ7SY0e8Jazz is full of people with heart breaking life stories, but this one has a twist. Frank Moran, played in 50's than got stranded, and yet he resurfaced 30 years later...On this album, he plays with Kenny Burrell. Could not find a beter clip, but the album is worth of having. http://youtu.be/p2AdSYd27kE |
Yesterday night I was lucky enough to see Pat Martino trio playing live, in my hometown, in a tiny intimate theatre for 200 people maybe.It kinda looked like this... http://youtu.be/SEUQI5IcyRYI could only imagine how it was seeing GG... |
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Acman, Mr.Martino seemed to be in a good shape, like some pistolero, thin and mean, fast and accurate. It looks like he is travelling a lot as well, so I guees he is doing fine. Here is another 'oldtimer' that I like very much, and I guess he is not mentioned much here... guitar player Ernest Ranglin, together with pianist Monty Alexander http://youtu.be/HOTlk36Um4khttp://youtu.be/H0tpI4Y4W7I |
Orpheus, I am glad that you liked it, and that I was able to contribute to that. If I may recomend, these are the two albums in which he plays with Monty Alexander, first 'Below the bass line', where Monty is a guest, and second is 'Rocksteady' of Monty Alexander, where Ranglin is a guest. http://youtu.be/NuyrY--vs3Uhttp://youtu.be/v7dVmicK7qQSince posting on this forum is quite slow, I will use the opportunity to mention one other guitar player, who is maybe known only to few, which is really pity. So, in hope that good music will spread around...Oscar Moore, used to play with Nat King Cole, on this album plays together with Carl Perkins, piano player (author of jazz standard 'Grooveyard') http://youtu.be/o3OjL1Gcs-Uhttp://youtu.be/TpZ2on-4M2Q |
Orpheus, I guess it all came with lots of listening, when I hear someone 'good', playing some instrument on some album, I try to find more of his music. I would like to think that I have a 'good ear', but you would not want to hear me singing... Also I read about jazz and its protagonists. Years ago it was not so easy to find many albums in shops, I would often travel abroad and than serach for some editions. Now its easier with internet, but aldo the music is more accessible, it looks to me that jazz is still 'terra incognita' for younger generations, which is great pity. Here is another great guitar player that has recorded only one solo album, Billy Bauer 'Plectrist'... http://youtu.be/G9x_74wc71chttp://youtu.be/XjiyZVQLnM4 |
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Orpheus, take you for your nice words, I am glad that I can contribute, in hope that all that great music should not stayed hidden or forgoten. I enjoy reading your posts when you speak about all the great players that you actually have known,met or just listened playing |
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First time that I have heard this pianist play was on this album of C.Haden, together with C.Baker. His name is Enrico Pieranunzi, and here is the title song from their album 'Silence' http://youtu.be/fXZR4zxMDeAFor ones who think that he might be worth further exploring, here is his album from 2012, together with the new rythm section of Gary Burton http://youtu.be/FY2MwD9S_JMSince posting is slow here on Audiogon, I will use the opportunity and post one more clip, with similar atmosphere. It is great music, but not jazz, please forgive me in advance. http://youtu.be/IUAF3abGY2Mhttp://youtu.be/QXFgHYk5NMc |
Frogman, Brew Moore has a very nice tone, but I like the trumpet sound of Tony Fruscella as well, in fact he was the reason I searched for that album. Like so many others, he never made it, his personal problems were probably too overwhelming. By the way, I am reading old posts here, and yours are really educative. |
Gentlemen, I hope you will find this album interesting as well. Pedro Iturralde quartet and Hampton Hawes...Iturralde(b.1929) is spanish composer, teacher and player of many instruments http://youtu.be/bBhMHm7hpq0 |
Jazzmen playing on albums of another genre, here are two albums that I like. First John Mayall live 'Jazz Blues Fusion' with Blue Mitchell on trumpet... http://youtu.be/6MMX5DwBaZQOn this T Bone Walker's album there are more jazzmen than on jazz at philharmonic editions. 'Very Rare', with Dizyy, Herbie Mann, Al Cohn, Zoot Sims,Fathead Newman,G.Mulligan,etc. Great album http://youtu.be/Mc4abSHRhEchttp://youtu.be/QRzawYcbmJoListening to this J.J. Cale song led me to a great harp player, so if someone is in such mood, here it is, first J.J.Cale, than Charlie McCoy's album 'Harpin the Blues' http://youtu.be/lOINPNtuUhchttp://youtu.be/Nj7vjn8hUDw |
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...'The question I have is this: Does this audience in Switzerland know who wrote this tune?? Do they think it's an original of this so-called big band'?... As I am European I guees I should share some of my experiences. In swiss town of Montreux there is a Jazz Festival, one, if not the one, of the greatest in the world,that lasts two weeks, than not so far away in Italian town of Perugia there is Umbria Jazz festival, that lasts around 10 days, and both are full of the people, from all over the Europe and world,of course.That may not mean anything per se, but in all major towns in Europe you can find excellent jazz clubs and usually they are packed with people when ever there is a good show. Than again, I was in Nyc couple of years ago, in Jazz Standard club, Reuben Wilson,Grant Green J.R. and Godfathers of Groove were playing two nights, and the place was half empty, I even had the privilege to introduce my self with Mr.Wilson after the gig. What I want to point is that for us, people from Europe, those artists are trully greats, and the music itself is an art form, and maybe, just maybe, for americans they are only entertainers. For this reason and because of various political and race issues maybe lots of them felt better overseas since the 60's of last century. So, I would not think that 'swiss' or any other take the music for granted, and without any pre knowledge. Even more, because 'knowing' Jazz is considered to be a part of life style of 'educated' people. I am not saying that is the right way, but it might be a fact. That is certainly subject for another discussion. Take a look at this clip. Future generations of artists and fans? http://youtu.be/g121gvj_4aE |
Rok, Than this is a great oportunity for you to learn something new. Here is Reuben Wilson's 2nd album that was cut for Blue Note,called 'Love Bug' featuring Grant Green, Lee Morgan and George Coleman. http://youtu.be/-p6b-o2CsEcThis is his 3rd album for Blue Note, called 'Blue Mode' featuring Melvin Sparks, great guitar player http://youtu.be/KkyP7nVMQc0Finaly, this is the line up that I saw in NYC. Recognising anyone? http://youtu.be/cDQbVVG_VKAI consider myself as individual, so I cant answer your generalizations about European feelings toward jazz.Like I said, that might be an interesting topic, but I guess for that is required more than an opinion |
Howard Roberts, played guitar as performer since he was 15, blues in the begining, later has become a studio musician and educator. On couple occasions he recorded few jazz albums. Anybody interested in jazz guitar should not overlook his music. This album is from 1959, and aldo the cover looks 'sweet' the music is 'serious'. I have few of his albums, wish that he has recorded more jazz. http://youtu.be/I0El4NXHbWshttp://youtu.be/Oe0KKlCe-Schttp://youtu.be/gaY3oDuJ5Gg |
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"We don’t have to know a lot of stuff about sharps and flats and chords and all that business in order to understand music; if it tells us something – not a story or a picture – but a feeling – if it makes us change inside, and have all those different good feelings music can make us have, then we are understanding it. And that’s all there is to it. Because those feelings aren't like the stories and picture we talked about before; they’re not extra; they’re not outside the music; they’re what music is about. And the most wonderful thing of all is that there’s no limit to the different kinds of feelings music can make you have.” -Leonard #Bernstein (Young People's Concerts: What Does Music Mean, January 18, 1958) |
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Orpheus, I am glad that you like it. Pleasure is all mine when I read your true life stories about people that we all can only imagine, while listening their music. I wish that you open a topic only about that subject. To answer one your previous question about pianist John Wright, I have 4 of his albums, but I have never been to Chicago, yet, my visits to Usa were limited to NYC or L.A. I hope nobody will mind if I say that I more prefer the NYC. Here are couple albums of musicians, all from Chicago. Richard Evans trio, on piano is young Jack Wilson http://youtu.be/hWXVnz0UdNUThan, Norman Simmons http://youtu.be/92od-i-jtC0...and one, recorded more recently... http://youtu.be/Qz0okMYf1W8 |
Frogman, regarding J.Lytle, his music has a such a good 'groove', no matter that is simple. Certainly I appreciate your opinion, and there is no such thing as 'too much knowledge', but sometimes, when the music is in the question, I allow myself some visceral feeling about it. Allow me to post two albums of now rather unknown guitar player that I like much, and who is rooted in the blues. Al Casey, used to play with Fats Waller, and later with other greats. http://youtu.be/ftRd77HPpEs http://youtu.be/-jdSgSSciM0 |
I am afraid I'll have nothing to contribute. May I please remain in 50's and 60's? I have not reached the music of 70's yet, somehow I feel I would not at all. I'll just repeat my last posting, Orpheus, maybe it will make you reconsider and return back 'on the track'... http://youtu.be/ftRd77HPpEshttp://youtu.be/-jdSgSSciM0 |
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Frogman, your view to music is academic, the things you think, others (Rok) just might not FEEL. Its quite simple actually. I dont know why do you continue arguing. Regarding the subject of your discussion, personally I have not acquired the taste for music of that (70's) era, but that is a matter of my personal estethics on music, like it is with any other art form. It is completely understandable that we all have a different perspective on such things. My hit of the day, Bobby Jaspar, Herbie Mann, Tommy Flanagan and Joe Puma on 'Flute Souffle' album. http://youtu.be/otengS4cE3Q |
Frogman, I hope you would not mind me saying this, but perhaps you are the one that simply refuse to comprehend the fact that someone can actually understand what are you talking about, but still not like it. Music wise, I mean, of course. I cant speak in Rok's name, but there is no difference in any other type of art form. I dont belleive that any art lover appreciate equally all styles that emerged through time. In fact, knowledge works both ways, it can help you to like something, but can also confirm someones dislaking about certain subject. Rok is very unique in his expressing, but I dont think that you should take that as offensive or proof of his ignorance. As far as litlle I have read his posts, he had much worst thing to say about some other much more serious stuff than it is art, but still there is lot of self irony in his words, so it should not be held against him. I dont want that anyone gets the impression that I am holding any sides here (not do I think that there are here) but like I said, the music that we spoke recently is not my favourite, and not because I do not understand it or appreciate the creative forces behind its creation, but because it does not correspond with my inner being,no matter if revives and readapts time and space, if it fails to emarge me in its world than I choose to listen something else that it does. |
'If you cant fight them, join them'...Buster Williams, from year 1979. Played with Miles, Hancock,etc. Considered as one of the great 'sideman's. On this record 'Heartbeat' he is joined with Kenny Barron on piano... http://youtu.be/oxLO5OQdhow |
Sunao Wada, japanese selfthought guitar player, I guess you will not find many info about him, but never the less, you should take a listen. The album is from 1977.and aldo the title says 'Blues, blues, blues' its jazz, jazz. No fusion, no noise makers, if there is any concerne... http://youtu.be/PjpWi3WdPtohttp://youtu.be/myoGF3QYElE |
Jack DeJohnette,Lester Bowie with Abercrombie and Gomez. The theme is called 'Silver Hollow' from JDJ album 'New directions' from 1978. https://youtu.be/YVjX1EhNbLwI certainly like the 'old directions' more, but have this in my collection. I belleive that every music style reflects certain aspect of some particular moment in time, it represents it, or maybe it is a witness of time, like a architecture is. There are many different reasons that are creating the esthetics of some period, both economic and social, and aldo we have tendency to call that long stretch of music with a same name as 'jazz', there is no doubt in my mind that we are speaking about almost totaly different styles of music, that indeed share same roots, but still are different, like the architecture is, or mind frame of the people of anothere era, fashion or almost any other social or intellectual aspect is. For this reason every music era or style is basicly unrepatable and there is no point searching for it in later times, not there is sense in pointing in 'new' ones and think of them as a 'same but better' or 'evolved' thing. I belleive that classical music is much more clear on that subject, aldo with advantage of much longer time frame and those distinctions we can see or hear much bettter |
Frogman, english is not my mothers tongue, that prevents me of a more complex explanations of my thoughts. Of course that music in time has a constant flow, and we can say that it has evolved, even more so if you have point of view from musicians stand point, like you do. But, imagine, if someone would look at society in general, in lets say late 50's,in some place where jazz was created, and than returned to the same place one decade later, I think one hardly could recognaise it. My points is that changes to music came with 'outer' factor,social and economic, which than impacted its protagonists on different ways and led them to create music that some express as their own artistic creative feeling, others maybe had the ability of craftmanship that allowed them to follow the 'fashion' of the moment. Maybe it is just my thoght, but 'older'jazz music seems to me to be more genuine, with clear thought and feeling behind it, like it had less influence from 'outside' but came from 'within', more it was 'musicians thing', rather than later music, which seems 'corrupted' by fashion, music industry, faster way of life, and other numerous soc.and econ.things. Also, if I may add something to your conversation with Orpheus, you two are looking things from two very different points. I admire your education, and your ability to articulate your thoghts and feelings into words, but sometimes your understanding of craftmanship that stands behind music creation, it just might you prevent to enjoy some more simple pieces of music, that are not necessary 'fake'. In that sense, O-10 seems to rely more on emotional receptors. Some music, Dizzy's session 1970 https://youtu.be/JjvbZEPmHdE |
Frogman, reasonable man can add very little to your and Learsf.last post. But, let me try, even if that may say more about me, making declarations, aldo I think it is just an clarification. IMHO, if you look at the history of any art, in each and every era you will find that art has some caracheristics which can be considered as strong points of that author, that style and finally that time.
Due to different reasons, there is always a different accent on what is considered as 'value or virtue' in some style and in certain time. So, I have taken the liberty to say that I certainly consider some era's superior than others,but I must add,in those aspects that I
value as important. Further more, if we would really want to establish what is 'good' or 'better' and why is it so, we should start a philosophical discussion on aesthetics and its ethics. I could not agree more with Learsfool who says that education is way to better understanding, but let me point to one other contradiction. When I say 'simple' that has different meaning to us. Yes, composition or melody may be simple, but if its executed right, you would like it. But, what if the composition is basic, playing of the key, and ability of musicians very limited, to say at least, and you still like it? Do you think that only an ignorant could like such 'music' or perhaps there is something in 'music' beyond craftmanship that can touch us in a 'mysterious ways' that cant be always just explained ? In this sense, I would not be so keen in dismissing O-10's perception of music as limited one, before we are sure that we covered all bases of the subject, and not only regarding jazz. |
Frogman, I wish that you reconsider your decision. Try not to take it so serious, lots of stuff that is said here is actually 'lost in translation', because of a form of this forum. Things are never written in 'real time', and there is a constant delay, plus, there is always a chance that 'tone'of some post could be missunderstood.On the other side, people from different sides of the world, 'talking' to each other, despite all above mentioned obstacles, about things that they love, that is almost a small wonder. Few times I thought how nice it would be to see you guys, all siting at the same table. I dont know nothing personaly about any of you, but I am certain that you would enjoy each others company 'in flesh'.So, please, once more, dont take it so hard. I am sure that the 'discussion' has its low points, but many more great ones. |
Schubert, fate of enlightener is often ungreatful, but noble. You can call me naive or maybe romantic, but the sprit of this thread seemed to be positive,to me, not only because of thoughts and ideas that were shared, but also because behind of each 'nick' stood a person who actualy tried to share something that holds dear, to a bunch of complete strangers, somewhere in the virtual world, and many, many times that was succesful, to a equal pleasure of ones who had recomended something,and the ones who had learned something new. Sometimes process of education may be slow and hard, to both parties, but here I do not see the betrayal of principles, as the tread has grown and advanced, but maybe just a dispute about terms or maybe even some childlish stubbornness.I certainly do not see a reason to use such a 'hard' words if one wish to describe any participant on this thread. Despite the differences present, I had an ilusion that all participants share my previous thoghts, because they all continued to write, and such words are kind of surprise to me. I can understand Frogman, and all I can say is that I realy appreciate reading his posts, even if I did not liked some music that he has refered to. Hope he will continue to participate. |
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Serge Chaloff's music and playing deserves to be mentioned more, like so many forgoten jazz names. Hopefully more people might here it and lake it. Here are couple of facts, together with few links. 'The best baritone saxophonist most listeners have never heard of, whose rather incredible talents combine Harry Carney's tone and Cecil Payne's vocabulary. Chaloff was born in Boston on November 24, 1923. His father was a pianist with the Boston Symphony Orchestra while his mother, Margaret, taught music at the Boston Conservatory of Music, over time educating an illustrious series of pianists including Keith Jarrett, Herbie Hancock, and Richard Twardzik. Chaloff himself studied piano and clarinet before teaching himself the baritone sax in emulation of Jack Washington and Harry Carney. Charlie Parker was also a monumental influence. Chaloff nevertheless remains best known for his stint with Woody Herman's Second Herd, which he joined in late 1946. Alongside tenors Stan Getz, Zoot Sims, and Herbie Stewart he vaulted to jazz immortality the following year via the Jimmy Giuffre composition "Four Brothers," a landmark recording extending each of the saxophonists a solo turn. In 1954, he signed to George Wein's Boston-based Storyville to cut The Fable of Mabel, recorded with local luminaries including alto saxophonist Charlie Mariano and trumpeter Herb Pomeroy, and a year later the label also issued his collaboration with altoist Boots Mussulli. After completing work on Boston Blow-Up!, a loose but impassioned Stan Kenton-produced date for Capitol, Chaloff relocated to Los Angeles, where in 1956 he assembled pianist Sonny Clark, bassist Leroy Vinnegar, and drummer Philly Joe Jones to record his masterpiece Blue Serge, a gripping, evocative set that ranks among the finest jazz recordings of its era. But by the time of its release Chaloff was confined to a wheelchair, partially paralyzed as the result of a spinal tumor. The cancer spread, and he died July 16, 1957, at the age of just 33.' https://youtu.be/Yxyx9U-8R_Ihttps://youtu.be/GSnSSeMHUI4https://youtu.be/FrgsundqISshttps://youtu.be/eZge-q63EQs |
'The idea of forgotten player' is a thought that comes to me quite often, more so when man digs deep into world of jazz. Aldo Frogmans explanation is quite logical, my personal perspective is somehow different, and I would like to share some thoghts on that matter. One thing that remains unknown to me is a question if somebody was 'the player' during some specific time, and later, during time and with a lack of interest for jazz music in general, faded into oblivion, or maybe one was never at all under the spotlight. For those informations I would appreciate the thoughts of ones whe were the witnesses of that time, like O-10. The obvious fact is that even the 'wellknown' figures led a hard life, and numerous others who perhaps were equally good players, never made it, for one reason or another, and that happend more often than is possible to blame on someones lack of musical expertise. So, I would like to start a discussion about it, and will post few clips, with players who are not so 'popular'. (guess that word popular is oximoron in jazz) Todays start, will begin with few guitar players Thornel Schwartz, recorded many early albums with Jimmy Smith, and with other great organists as well. Made only one album as a leader, as far as I know. https://youtu.be/8tgpOBAZ1hERay Crawford, played with Ahmed Jamal trio, with Jimmy Smith as well, and so on, again, only one album as leader https://youtu.be/fka0tp0WGPsHow about Dempsey Wright? I think the west coast guys on this record would not keep him company if he is no good. https://youtu.be/Y96sawbRZe0Skeeter Best? Eddie McFaden? No albums at all, and yet, great players. Imho the list is long. Looking forward to hear some other suggestions |
Frogman, lets try to put things in some context, and than hopefully we shall make some conclusions. 'the great ones will not play for a lame "leader"; but, that leader may sometimes not be on the same level as his sidemen.' I guess that goes other way too, the 'great ones' probbably would not pick the 'lame' sidemen. My question for you is this, if the couple of the 'great ones' repeatedly choose the same guy for their albums, would not that be the sign that he is 'considered' as 'equal? If Randy Crawford was good enough for A.Jamal and J.Smith, certainly I would give him some credit. The questions is should he be compared to the so called 'best', like Wes or Burrell? (I am not a fan of Benson) If the answer is 'yes' than, I think, we are only narrowing our choices. How many players could be in that 'league' where there is 'no comparations'with others? Not much, I guess. This is not the best analogy, but, should we compare the skills of every artist with ones of Rembrandt? Than, you said 'I cannot think of one single example of a player who was "the one" and then simply disappeared from the jazz scene.' How about these couple clips? Already above mentioned (with Leo Wright) trumpet player Dave Burns https://youtu.be/5ebeHafmsDAAnother trumpet player, Howard McGhee,like him a lot https://youtu.be/nilp-xPq0Y0Herbie Nichols, complex figure https://youtu.be/e2lSBn1egDEBilly Bauer, I have mentioned him here before,played with Konitz, made only one album as leader https://youtu.be/G9x_74wc71cOr maybe Phineas Newborn Jr. Aldo, he is already considered as someone 'famous' at least among musicians. https://youtu.be/mADxQjfxL54Michael 'Dodo' Marmorosa perhaps? https://youtu.be/cudV3FkT3bYWould like to hear others people opinions on subject. Hope its not a dull topic |
Frogman, point I am trying to prove is quite simple. I'll do my best to futher clear my thougts in a hope that we can stop the 'debate' and continue to recommmend good music to each other. So, hope that everyone will forgive me, here it is, one more time... 'I think the idea of the "forgotten player" or the player that "didn't get his due" is mainly overstated and often a myth' 'If we look at players' careers in the context of an evolving art form and changing times it's not difficult to understand why soem players become famous and some do not' 'the BUSINESS of music was making it much more difficult for anyone (and their recordings) other than the very best to stay in the limelight.' With a part of last sentence I would agree, that business is often the factor that has the final word, usually on expanse of art. What I wanted to say, with those few random examples, is that in history of jazz were much,much more players who were 'quite good' or beter, or even 'one of three' like in case of P.Newborn J.R. that actually never made it, and who were recognised late or by too few people. Jazz music of the past, in general, is fading into oblivion, and hardly we can talk about fame or recognition in some wider sense of those words. Comparing the very best (the 'Rembrandts') and known figures to others does not put things into right perspective, because than the book of jazz would have just a couple of pages. Someone might say that Hubbard is good, but not in a same league as Dizzy? That is not the point of 'discussion' that I am trying to make, just the opposite. Like Rok said, lets talk about those less fortunate, who left their mark, no matter how insignificant it seems to be. They were in majority, after all, and I am sure that we shall discover some very fine music indeed.However, one may have a different opinion, and standards, of course, like you said. For sure that will lead to a much smaller collection of music,but like you said, we all have our choices and I certainly respect yours. That's all, folks https://youtu.be/Q3bbsDJWlXQP.S. Frogman, I cant open your clips, it just leads to you tube... P.P.S. Griffin's 'Studio Jazz party',with D.Burns on trumpet, and Norman Simmons on piano. I have mentioned him on this pages, again, not a well known name https://youtu.be/Wu0qnePU3Os |
Well, Frogman, the answer is quite simple. Ask yourself how many people actually could afford to live beeing just a jazz musician? Imho opinion jazz survived despite music business, not because of it. Certainly, that has lot to do with other social factors as well, but if the 'business'saw the opportunity to make more money with jazz, I am sure that its development and history would have taken another direction. The 'business' will support the ones who will bring the biggest buck, and usually those ones will not be our favourite 'greats'. I guess there is no need to talk about music business, and its flaws or its wrongdoing in terms of culture and education
Regarding previous subject, I am not talking about narrow 'top trier,'. It is in fact my 'bottom trier' who is probbably broader than yours.(no offense) You have said that jazz society is a small circle, it may be so, but the opus left behind is absolutely huge, so much great music, I am afraid lifetime is not enough to hear it all.
Under those terms, I guess one should have open ears and perspective and than it will be rewarded with more great music. Quite often that happens to me, and if that was not the case, long time ago I could option to have couple hundred 'top' records and maybe great collection of stamps too, instead. |
Frogman, I am pleased that I can learn something from you, would not loose time in arguing, hope that I do not leave that impression. Regarding the subject, of players who were not appriciated enough. Hope that these words will finaly clear my point of view on that matter. I have suggested that here are numerous players in jazz, who did not get substantial recognition. You, on the other hand, think that everyone who had such destiny, simply deserved it, because was not good enough player, and that the great ones always will come to the top. I belleive that in term 'great' lies the root of our missunderstanding. For me, there are lots of 'great' players, for you, there is only a handfull of 'the great' ones. With that I agree. (THE great) On the other hand, very few men can deliver the things that the 'The graet' ones can, and by messuring everything with that standards in mind, man can only narrow his musical choices. Thats what I ment when I have used the analogy with Rembrandt. Very few men in history of art had his skills, would that mean that their work is not great or impressive? But, let us not go into semantics. You have mentioned 'context' as well. If we look some players and their work in time when they lived, man could be surprised to find, that even Grant Green, for example, was not considered 'the top' player, and was deeply unhappy with his status. So, it was really tough world where they lived and it is no wonder that many lost their way or just remained in obscurity. Of course, I am very courious to find more 'hidden' music and to know more about it in general, and that is all I ever wanted to say. You may have found all music that you thought that is worth listening too, and thats fine. Certainly I will continue to try to look things from your perspective in order to understand better or to learn something new, and for that I am gratefull that you are writing here. As for George Benson, my thoghts are quite subjective, he is a very good player, but he never managed to 'touch' me, always he gave me the 'hollow' feeling, like his skills exsisted just because of them self,not because he was trying to transcedent some feeling with his playing. Kind of Al Di Meola, guy can play, but there is something missing. As for Dave Burns, you clearly are not his fan, maybe you could tell us why? You are quite happy to not have him in your collection, does that mean that you will skip the albums where he played or had some bigger part?Some of very fine Dizzy's, Moody's, Griffin,s Taylor,s and so on, list is long? I like the album, but the cover is great, looks like its have been made with some Edward Hopper's painting in mind https://youtu.be/fCjecP1HT-s https://youtu.be/fCjecP1HT-s |
Sorry, this is a clip with the great cover,that I mentioned above https://youtu.be/dG-RLgDabRsThe trumpets are played by Clark Terry and Snooky Young.The pair recorded lots of albums playing together, but Young did not make any album as leader untill 70's. |
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Speaking of french (now I read that he is Belgian, hope nobody will be offended) guitarists, Rene Thomas came to my mind. Here are couple of links of albums that I have, hope you will find it intersting. This one is with Stan Getz, its been said that was recorded as a one time meeting, from 1971.album 'Dynasty'.....here is the link /youtu.be/MWcRtztr35AOne more album, this time Rene Thomas Quintet https://youtu.be/O35l1eeWKmkAnother one, much earlier recorded, John Lewis with Sasha Distel on guitar,album is called 'Afternoon in Paris' https://youtu.be/9yufrYCYJNc |
