Jazz for aficionados

Wayne Shorter is one of the very greatest jazz musicians to have ever lived.; up there with the likes of Bird, Coltrane amd Miles in stature. Like Coltrane, Miles (an probably Bird, had he lived) his music was constantly evolving and moving in a new and different direction which reflected the times. He is undoubtedly one of the greatest jazz composers with compositions that are especially sophisticated and often complex; but never for the sake of complexity. One of the most fascinating aspects of his playing for me was how it became more and more economical through each successive stage. He has gone from a player that could burn it up with the best of them in a hard bop fast tempo, to one who (by choice) can say what he has to say with just a couple of well inflected and poignant notes. In the early 80s, after his time with and as co-founder of Weather a Report, he started his own "fusion" (there's that word again) band. "Atlantis" from that period is one of my favorite records from the 80s. To my ear he crafted tunes that struck a rare balance between sophistication via the use of counterpoint and complex meter changes, and being tuneful and catchy in an almost "pop" way. Excellent sounding also and a real audiophile sleeper.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H9z6-qehv4w

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z3qXILIfPuw

Frogman, when you are alone in your "audiophile" listening room, playing an LP on your perfectly adjusted TT, with one of the best cartridges, basking in a holographic sound stage that makes your listening room seem like a space much larger than what it is, you are experiencing a "subjective reality".

The average person sitting in your same sweet spot might not experience anything. I never mention anything about my rig to a non audiophile (who's in the listening room on a purely experimental basis) and they just go on babbling while the music is playing, never do I mention anything about the rig.

"Subjective Reality" is what all audiophiles live everyday without even thinking about it.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, english is not my mothers tongue, that prevents me of a more complex explanations of my thoughts. Of course that music in time has a constant flow, and we can say that it has evolved, even more so if you have point of view from musicians stand point, like you do. But, imagine, if someone would look at society in general, in lets say late 50's,in some place where jazz was created, and than returned to the same place one decade later, I think one hardly could recognaise it. My points is that changes to music came with 'outer' factor,social and economic, which than impacted its protagonists on different ways and led them to create music that some express as their own artistic creative feeling, others maybe had the ability of craftmanship that allowed them to follow the 'fashion' of the moment. Maybe it is just my thoght, but 'older'jazz music seems to me to be more genuine, with clear thought and feeling behind it,
like it had less influence from 'outside' but came from 'within', more it was 'musicians thing', rather than later music, which seems 'corrupted' by fashion, music industry, faster way of life, and other numerous soc.and econ.things. Also, if I may add something to your conversation with Orpheus, you two are looking things from two very different points. I admire your education, and your ability to articulate your thoghts and feelings into words, but sometimes your understanding of craftmanship that stands behind music creation, it just might you prevent to enjoy some more simple pieces of music, that are not necessary 'fake'. In that sense, O-10
seems to rely more on emotional receptors.

Some music, Dizzy's session 1970

https://youtu.be/JjvbZEPmHdE

O-10, I would have much preferred to engage in dialogue about Wayne Shorter and his music, but.....

I THINK I understand what you are saying. Some thoughts:

I have never sat an "average person" down in front of my system who didn't, at least, say "Wow, that sounds great"; that was after my asking them to choose the music.

My system, while of a fairly high pedigree, is far from "perfectly" set up (by the standards of what is possible); I would rather put my energies elsewhere. It does sound pretty good, with the goal being for it to sound as much as possible like the way live music sounds with priorities being rhythm and timbre. Actually, soundstaging is probably it's main shortcoming with "space" that is actually smaller than real; but I get your point (dig). As far as the "subjective audiophile reality" goes: you are absolutely correct, but I have to say: so what and who cares? Most audiophile systems that I have heard don't sound the way that live music sounds to me; most, not even close; and many audiophiles don't have that as a goal, wanting their system to simply sound good to them. I have no problem with that. However, when an audiophile wants to make a case for why his system sounds "like live" or "accurate" or more "accurate" (like live music) than mine, AND can also tell me that he is a regular and frequent concert goer; THEN we can talk.

Btw, what did you think of the Brecker/Ogerman "City Scapes" clip? Thought it might be right up your alley.

Regards.

Alex, nothing is more important than communicating the truth as you perceive it, and you do that quite well. Your perceptions are correct. From what I can gather about audiophiles since I've been here, is that they are very much unaware of things outside of that arena.

"Cataclysmic" changes have occurred in the economy of this country since I was on the south side of Chicago in 56. Those changes have affected everything, including music. You are correct in your perceptions about the changes in society that are reflected by music.

Once upon a time there were many places of entertainment that hired musicians, now there are relatively few when compared to times past, this means it's much harder for a musician to make a living; that and other factors account for radical changes in music over time. For whatever reasons, we are both in harmony in regard to the "jazz" of the 50's and 60's.

Enjoy the music.