Jetrexpro,
Someone did, Shun Mook has them for sale at the Cable Company, for over $3,000. My wife is from Brooklyn and as a child went to Leeds Radio with her father. Best, Rob |
Nonoise,
Jeff Day (Positive Feedback/6 Moons) in a recent blog of his in Wordpress did a wonderful article on NOS Western Electric 16ga speaker wire which is stranded tinned copper. It was brought to his attention by the Japanese builder (Yazaki-San), of the new Spec Amp (read Positive Feedback review) as well as a number of fabulous 300B amps in the Japanese markets. Yazaki-San described this speaker with as having the attributes of the Western Electric 274B tube from the 40s, not the later models of 274B. Yazaki-San basically stated it was an "artistic" sounding wire with a transparent presentation that presents a natural, organic sound, full of saturated color and texture, faithful timbre, warm, and dynamic, big soundstage in depth and width. I was fortunate to buy some of this same wire on e-bay for $1.15 a foot. Honest, no hyperbole, it is that good. Unfortunately, it is now even more impossible to purchase as Day's readers bought most of what was being sold in the States. It is fast disappearing in Japan and elsewhere as well. I have used a lot of Kimber cable in my life. I like it; but this Western Electric tinned copper, my system, slays the Kimber I have used.
Another tip Yasaki-san gave to Jeff Day was the inexpensive Belden 8402 microphone as interconnect cable terminated with inexpensive Switchcraft 3502A, or better still if you desire a little more warmth, 3502AAU from Switchcraft. Also Canare F-10s if you need a slimmer profile. Day and a panel of friends compared the Belden favorably to the $$$ Sablon interconnects. Different presentation, but on the same level. I Also purchased these...sound similar to the Western Electric 16ga. This Belden cable terminated as above cost only about $60.00. Terminate DIY, cut the cost in half. I am a happy camper. Read the Jeff Day Word Press Blog, really good stuff. Best, All. |
Nonoise,
Thanks for the kind words. And thank you for the Supra information. I
almost went for them several years ago, but went in another direction.
Since I have several systems I will likely give them a try in very near future.
Did you get a chance to read the Jeff Day stuff? Thoughts? Best. Robert |
Nonoise,
Yes, I believe all the legitimate sellers for the time being are gone with
respect to the WE 16ga speaker wire. Mine does have body and weight as
well as the other attributes Jeff and Yazaki-San state, transparent, warm,
big soundstage, correct timbre, texture, right-sized scale, better bass, more
holographic, etc. once I get moved to my new house and get set-up I will
compare and contrast, a month or two away. The amazing thing is that the
NOS We 16 gage was going for only $1.15 a foot. I bought about 40 feet.
By-the-way, these wire go in naked, the old fashioned way. I'm kicking
myself now for not buying more while I had the opportunity. Thanks for your
response. Best, Rob |
Tbg,
I trust you are joking, do some reading and listening, I'll trust my own ears and environment. Do you think the builder of the SPEC, or a guy like Jeff Day don't know a thing or two about this hobby. What are your credentials? By-the-way, the Western Electric is the best antennae I've ever owned, even drags in far-out, outlying stations such as Wtbg. Best! Rob |
I notice you are in to the Stars, I'll attempt to tune you in.:) |
Well, likewise, have been in to this since 60s, been professional musician, and if you look at various systems like Jeff Day has, you get extremely close to reality. The SPEC Amp is Solid State. Tubes run the amps professional musicians utilize unless not amplified. If you believe tubes cannot do it on piano, drums, brass, then there is something wrong in the universe. I'm not getting in to the SS vs tubes canard with you...whatever you like is best for you. I wish you the best, and I mean that sincerely. |
Technically I know all that, so does Jeff Day, the builder of the SPEC amp, the 62 or so respondents to Day's original blog, yet, the WE 16ga speaker wire, tinned copper sounds splendid. Stellar in fact, plenty of expensive speaker cables are being replaced by the NOS WE 16ga. My PS Audio Statement is now sidelined as well as my Goertz silver, Kimber, and some others. This WE is now nearly impossible to get worldwide. The only reliable American seller sold his supply out in short order as over 400 Audio Fools like me bought out the stock after Day's blog. In case your interested he writes for Positive Feedback as well as 6 Moons. My ears seem to match his type of listening habits. I trust most like me trust their own ears and are enjoying a superlative music. The tinned copper Belden 8402 microphone cable as interconnect is also fabulous at about $2.75 a foot terminated with inexpensive Switchcraft 3502AAU or 3502A. Again, all the best, and yes, trust your own ears in your environment. |
Metman,
Be sure to let us know what you think. My wife and I are now debating: she
likes the PS Audio Statement water hose size speaker cable plus Silnote
Reference interconnect slightly better than the Western Electric 16 ga ( no
where near break-in yet, maybe 20 hrs.) and the Belden 8402 microphone
cable as interconnect with Switchcraft 3502AAU RCAs. I like the WE &
Belden combo better already. I reminded her that the PS/Silnote combo
was over $1,000, the WE/Belden about $80. She maintains the PS/Silnote
is ever so slightly better. She also says, the cost is irrelevant since we own
both and the cost has nothing to do with what her ears hear. She further
states, the set-up either sounds better or it does't. OK, we'll see when WE
is at 100 hrs. Now, don't you guys wish you had a wife like her? |
Metman,
I don't know if you read Jeff Day's Wordpress blog, but a number of folks
who made the White Lighting Cables have mentioned the WE 16ga is in
another league entirely. The Decware forum page also has some
interesting discussion, also Asylum Cable Forum.
In my view, I like these better than Kimber 8TC, PS Audio Statement,
Goertz 99.99% pure silver. The WE is still breaking in. I did purchase
another 70 feet yesterday, enough for several more cables.
Of course as always YMMV, I believe this NOS WE will best many, many
speaker cables out there. Still, only $1.39 a foot. I think Nonoise is on to
something good with the Supra, also tinned copper. Do yourself a big favor,
get the Belden 8402, terminate with the inexpensive Switchcraft SWC 3502
AAU RCAs. They too, are really good. About $40. I like them better than
Kimber Hero, Goertz silver, Silnote Reference, and really, just about any
other interconnect I have owned. Again, YMMV. Best. |
Hey,
And God made the best pizza come from New Haven, Pepe's, Sally's and some others... |
Metman,
It seems it was break-up of ATT that ultimately caused the demise of much of the WE wires. Very sad to me. I'm also in ”I wish that I knew what I know now when I was younger” club. The wires continue to get better. I believe my musical/audio/sensibility/ears closely match Day and Yazaki-san. I really am thrilled with the sound I am getting. Good luck and best. Rob. |
If you are speaking about the WE 16ga, just go bare wire, just give them a few twists. If you are speaking about the Belden, the seller will terminate for you. If the Supra, l'd take advice from Nonoise. |
Metman,
In my system the WE 16g is a wonderful match with the Belden 8402 interconnect. Natural and organic. Relaxed with terrific tonal color, texture, dynamic, transparent, really nice stage. I think YMMV.
John, some folks are using them with success as phono.
Best, Rob |
If anyone here wants the WE 16ga, tajacobs, seller on eBay is legitimate. Most of the Day/Yazaki-san readers are buying from him. I have no connection to tajacobs, just a happy buyer. Day's blog provide a link to seller of Belden 8402. They can terminate RCA or other type for you. |
John,
Just go on eBay, sign-up if you don't already have account. Use PayPal to pay, very easy. You'll get your WE in about 4 days. But do it fast as I don't really know how much of this wire tajacobs has. After him it's Japan or Taiwan, even more of a hassle. Best. Rob |
I just checked and the eBay seller tajacobs still has the WE stranded tinned copper in both red and black wire. So, good luck. Best, Rob |
Metman & Nonoise,
I like your description and tend to agree with Nonoise earlier comment, tinned stranded copper, Supra/WE, "kissing cousins" is likely right. It has such an organic natural flow, less the electronic artifacts, full, texture, color, provides a nice emotion connection to the musicians. Everything is in balance. No etch, glare, quiet. Dynamics can be startling. I just love the tone. Rob |
Hello 1markr,
Please read the Jeff Day Wordpress blog, those questions are answered there. Most people just loosely twist the plus and minus together, not necessary though, some folks seem leave them parallel. Trial and error in your system likely the way to go. I bought both the red and black, loosely twisted the plus/minus together and gave the bare tinned copper ends some twists.
With respect to the Belden I believ Yazaki-san dropped the shield entirely, I'll have to go back and check. Of course other folks did one or the other. Go read the blog to make sure for yourself, I could be mistaken. Best, Rob |
1markr, guys,
Here is what you are looking for regarding the RCAs:
I asked Yazaki-san how he planned to construct the interconnects, as there are a couple of different conventions for connecting a shielded two-conductor cable to RCA plugs. Yazaki-san told me, “One conductor is connected to the hot of the RCA plug. And the one more conductor is connected to the grounding of RCA plug with the shield of the cable. In my opinion, the audio signal has AC component, overlapped with DC component and AC current flows forward and backward. And so the conductor to the hot could flow AC forward current and the other conductor to the grounding could flow AC backward current under the same condition. And also grounding, one conductor and the shield could bring out the lower impedance for grounding.”
So in Yazaki-san’s method, one conductor goes to the RCA pins (hot), the other conductor goes to the plug housings (ground), and the shield is connected at each end to the ground. This is a little different connection method than is traditional here in the USA, where the norm is to connect one conductor to hot (pins), one conductor to ground (plug housings), and connect the shield only on one end (normally the preamplifier end) to the ground. Connecting the shield to ground on both ends has some potential risks, decreasing the effect of the shielding slightly, creating the possibility of a ground loop in some applications, and creating the possibility that noise voltages or currents from the shield can get on the signal conductor (Henry Ott, Reducing Noise in Electronic Systems, second edition, page 58). However, I found no issues at all with Yazaki-san’s connection method in my system, and as you’ll read in a moment, it sounded fantastic. |
More from Jeff Day Wordpress Blog:
Think about this for a moment: It turns out that back in the day that Belden 8402 was the choice for microphone cables in a fair number of recording studios (and other pro-audio applications), so there’s a reasonable chance that for your beloved recordings, the live music went to the microphone, down the Belden 8402 microphone cable, and onto the master tape. Part of what you and I associate with ‘the master tape sound’ is unsurprisingly the sonic characteristics of Belden 8402 microphone cable.
Leo, Pete, Ron, Stephaen, and I played a bunch of different mono & stereo records and had a blast listening to music. So how did the Belden 8402 microphone cable sound as an RCA interconnect? Fantastic! Even with zero time on them, straight out of the package from Tokyo, they sounded amazingly good. Smooth and natural, very refined, timbrally realistic, beautiful tone color, and terrific musicality. Yazaki-san regards the Belden 8402 microphone cable “as some kind of ultimate” and I wouldn’t disagree.
We did a little A-B listening with my normal reference, the seriously good Sablon Audio Panatela interconnects ($950 USD for a 1-meter pair), which those of you who have been following along, know that I really love.
The Belden 8402 and Sablon Audio Panatela interconnects sound totally different from each other in the way they’re voiced, yet they’re both fantastic sounding interconnects. So which pair of interconnects was the favored pair in our listening sessions? It was actually a split decision. Two listeners preferred the Sablon Audio Panatela interconnects (Leo and Stephaen), two preferred the Belden 8402 (Pete and Ron), and one called it a draw between them (me).
The bottom line is that I think the Panatela and Belden 8402 are the two best interconnects I’ve heard in my hi-fi experience, and as I get more time on the Belden 8402’s I’ll follow up with more detailed impressions and comparisons.
Here’s the tricky part: the Belden 8402 is non-existent in the USA from the normal audio outlets. Sorry about that. You can find it from a few pro-audio providers, but it’s sold from Belden in 500-feet spools as a minimum order, so it’s hard to find shorter lengths.
So you’re probably wondering how much it would cost to build a 1-meter pair of interconnects using Belden 8402. Well, about a $1000 USD.
Kidding! Belden 8402 sells for about $2.75 USD per foot or less, depending where you buy it. So it’ll cost you less than $50 USD to build a 1-meter pair of interconnects. It is an incredible bargain.
I searched high and low for someone who sells it by the foot here in the US, and I found one pro-audio supplier that was willing to sell it by the foot (10-feet minimum order), Best-Tronics Pro Audio in Tinley Park, Illinois. Here’s a link to their Belden 8402 page where you can buy it by the foot. |
Sorry for all the cutting and pasting. Jeff Day does allow to share the blog, so I hope this information is helpful to anyone interested. It helped me. You also might want to read directly from blog about the WE 16ga along with all the comments. And thank you sincerely to Yazaki-san for bringing these wires to our attention. My deepest respect and gratitude. Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
Buy from seller tajacobs, that is where I and most of the Jeff Day blog respondents bought their WE 16ga; they are authentic. Good luck, Rob |
Grannyring,
I also posted about the WE16ga and Belden over on the Rebbi speaker thread that you participate in. Doesn't seem like too many folks over there care to make an inexpensive experiment. As I stated before, I've dumped my expensive speaker Cables and interconnect for the WE 16ga and Belden 8402, sounds superb with my Coincident amp. Jeff Day has Aldo been interesting and a straight shooter. Lots of good tips. His turntable is a beautiful piece of functioning art. |
I'm going bare wire as is Jeff Day, Yazaki-san and almost all Day's responders. |
Best-Tronics is excellent source for Belden and other pro stuff. Did excellent job for me. Tajacobs also top-notch. |
Grannyring,
They keep getting better as they settle in, about 100hrs they should be there. More detail and image is on the horizon, although my system didn't lack for either in my set-up, but I completely agree with your descriptors thus far. |
John421,
Individual length, so, if you need a one (1) meter pair of interconnect you need approximately six (6) feet of cable. Best-Tronics will cut for you any length as long as you buy their minimum of ten (10) feet. Best-Tronics will also terminate for you if you want that done.
For example, I wanted two pair of interconnect, one three (3) foot and one six (6) foot; so I bought eighteen feet of Belden 8402, Best-Tronics cut and terminated with the terminations I asked for: I asked for Switchcraft RCA. Bingo, two pair terminated, arrived from order to finish about 5 days. On their site they have a box for questions. A helpful fellow named Bartoz quickly got me all settled. Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
My WE 16ga maintained smoothness throughout the break-in, yet kept getting better with time in regard to detail and imaging. They are especially a good match with the Belden 8402. With this combo in my system I get the superb imaging and detail, with as you describe, smoothness, absolutely no glare or electronic signature. Very relaxed, but dynamic with great tone, texture, scale and other positive attributes mentioned in the Day Blog. They are relaxed, but capture it all top to bottom in an extremely engaging, pleasing way. |
Mitch2,
Jeff Day cooked his cables on the Audioharma Cable Cooker. Day thought eight (8) hours was enough, more not necessary, he explains on his blog which you should read. Grannyring links above. Best, Rob |
Nonoise,
Thanks for the info on Triode Wire Labs power cable. I suspect you are absolutely right, both Supra and TWL did their homework and their internal wire could possibly be the old WE stuff of various gage. I am planning to make a bunch of changes to my various systems (3 currently). Since hearing the Bekden 8402 and Western Electric stranded tinned copper I'm extremely Jazzed and inspired. So much so, that I'm going to change my internal wiring on my Coincident Dynamo/speakers in my office system. Going to be a busy summer, fall. Over time I will likely change most of my power cords to Triode Wire Labs.
If I was going to start a cable company I would locate all the NOS Western Electric stranded tin copper wire I could find worldwide of various gage and build speaker cables, power cords with it. I suspect places like Sweden, other places have tons of this wire warehoused. |
I think in combo with the Belden 8402, in my system, the initial more mellow highs that you heard remain a constant. If I switch in the Silnote Reference (silver/gold/copper) also a excellent interconnect, it does become a bit more lively, but not better. The Belden/WE combo gets it all with an extended top end, but with a more natural flow and manner. Your descriptor, "relaxed" is apropos. I'm very interested in your experiment to try a double run. |
Jeff Day states on his Blog, not necessary. You can basically do it either way. I twisted mine. |
Metman,
Are you using the WE/Belden in combo or something else for interconnect? I'm curious since there seems to be a real synergy between the two. In my system, never bright, really gorgeous tone, upper register of violins spot on, brass likewise. |
The Cable Company was advertising Shun Mook Power Cables using, what else, Western Electric wire for about $1,000-$1,500, comparing them to other $5,000 cables for sound quality. |
Not only the above, but NOS WE speaker cables costing over $3,000. |
Well, gee, $3,000 interconnect 1 meter vs $40 1 meter interconnect and Kondo aside, Belden, perhaps one of the better interconnects out there... |
Jetrexpro,
Overall you have a great system. Happy you like the WE16ga. Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
I wished I lived near you. You could help re-wire my stuff as well as supervise the Cap and resistor changes it my Coincident Dynamo 34SE. Right now it looks like I am going to use vintage Mallory 30/450 and 10/450 to strengthen the power supply, Ohmite Brown Devil Type 90 and Type 20, plus Arizona Capacitors 0.47/600v, either Blue Cactus or Green Cactus. Also re-wire with the WE.
Jet, as Grannyring stated, the Belden needs a little time to settle in, but these work really well with the WE 16ga. But that is also dependent on listening bias. Your speakers are on my short list once I move in to my new home. |
Jetrexpro,
Yeah, my father-in-law is a do everything DIY kind of guy; only problem is is he is a huge procrastinator with everything always half done. Leeds helped my wife though, she has fond memories, remembers the odor well, gave her a big chuckle. She is anxious to move in to our new home, get settled and start building the AN Kit-1. Ultimately, I believe we will end up with AN speakers you own. Elrog 300Bs.
In the meantime we are going to mod the Coincident Dynamo 34SE as well as the Tekton M-Lore speakers. I'm going to re-wire with WE16ga. Do you have any suggestions for the caps in this speaker? Anyone? |
Thanks Grannyring!!!
I'll likely go with the Jupiter Flat stacked aluminum. I have every expectation this will make a good speaker much, much better. I like the idea that these caps are organic sounding with a touch of warmth; full of body and weight is a plus for me and my listening bias. I'm really happy for folks like yourself on the Agon, very helpful and a pleasure to read the threads you participate in. That 20% is meaningful. Again thanks for helping a rookie DIY. |
Jet,
The lower strings are anything but muddy in my system on classical or any other style of music. I was just commenting to my wife how clear these regions were on the Bach, Stokowski, London Phase4Stereo, Toccata & Fugue in D minor which has a large quantity of lower mids and bass. Quite astoundingly good, great in fact; or take a well-recorded Jazz album such as Louis Armstrong &Duke Ellington/The Complete Sessions/Deluxe Edition, that I listened to this morning, you couldn't ask for better lower mids or bass. Plus the emotion of these various pieces really shine through. As a bass player myself I am extremely sensitive to any shortcoming in this region of music. I will say this though: many recordings out there are a muddled mess to begin with and unfortunately not much you can do with them. Huge amount of crappy sound engineering or further down the road mishaps in the recording or manufacture process. |
Jetrexpro,
As Grannyring has stated, be patient, about 100 hrs, everything keeps improving. Best, Rob |
Jet,
Really happy they finally got burned in. For some reason my wire took less time. |
Mitch2,
Seriously, take Grannyring's advice. Shirokazu Yazaki-san, the superb Japanese designer and builder who alerted us all to this WE and Belden spent years experimenting with different combinations of of wires, connectors, solder and so forth; just keep it simple, save the $$$$ and apply the $$$$ elsewhere. This combo is the magic bullet. Jetrexpro was merely talking about burning in time, more for him than me. Jeff Day and about 99.33% of the folks swear by this combo. Don't over complicate something that is really simple and inexpensive. Give it a chance to work for you. Best, Rob. |
Mitch2, Jetrexpro,
Agreed, appreciate all the experimenting, good luck and let us know what you find out. Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
Any further update on your digital DIY. Inquiring minds want to know...Rob |
Mitch2,
Thanks for the info.
I thought it would be useful to again post Jeff Day's "Listening Bias" as this is pretty much Yazaki-san's bias as well as mine and some "kindred spirits" here on Audiogon. I think this type of "listening" provides a more realistic, or closer to "real sound" as Yazaki-san likes to call it. Not the typical audiophile listening. One man's "thick" is another man's full, weighty, more real and lifelike sound. Definitely not thin like so many audiophile systems which always reminds me of a nasal human voice.
Timbral Listening ala Jeff Day:
Thought it might be handy for those following my writing at Positive Feedback Online to know what my listening biases are to aid you in interpreting and decoding my reviews. Just to alert you, my listening perspective is somewhat of a minority opinion in the Hi-Fi community of North America, but will be more familiar to those listeners in Turkey, Africa, and Japan, who tend to be more familiar with timbral ways of listening. My hierarchy of importance is aligned more closely to how well a Hi-Fi rig plays the musical content of recordings (I know, it’s a heretical concept), rather than how it ‘sounds’ in the more traditional audiophile ‘sonic’ sense.
As a result of my being drawn towards the musical content of recordings, I tend to be a bit more of a timbral listener than is typical for a lot of Westerners, meaning that the reproduction of the textures, colors, and tones & overtones in the music are really important to me. To this end I look for timbral realism at the band level (the band’s signature ‘sound’) and at the individual instrument level (the unique ‘voices’ of instruments). I want them to sound recognizably like themselves in tone and texture, so that their full tone color can develop, which I think helps lend a feeling of beauty and expressiveness to the music. I like the melody (the tune you ‘whistle while you work’), harmony (treble & bass accompaniments to the melody) and rhythm (the steady beat that determines the tempo) to have a life-like flow and connectedness in how the musicians interact—just like in real life. I want dynamics (variations in loudness) to evoke that which I hear in life for an emotional connection to the melody and rhythm. For loudness I like my music playback to be similar to live loudness levels, which for the kind of music I listen to the most, jazz, usually means 80 dB or louder. Finally, I want tempo portrayed so that both the mood and speed of the music are conveyed through it, just like it is with music in real life.
I consider the sonic performance of a Hi-Fi rig on the non-musical artifacts of the recording process to be of value, but of less importance to me than the performance on the musical content of recordings (as above). So things like transparency (being able to ‘see’ into the recording), soundstage (the three dimensions of the recorded space in width, height and depth), soundspace (the acoustic ‘space’ of the soundstage), and imaging (the feeling of solidity and localization of instruments & musicians on the soundstage) are important to me, but they are not my primary focus – the musical content is.
So I like my cake (the musical content of recordings) with a little frosting (the sonic artifacts of the recording process) for a balanced taste treat. Too much frosting and not enough cake puts me off. So that’s me, and you might be different, but at least now you know how. |
Mitch2,
I believe the WE16ga, along with the Belden 8402 in combo with WE does all of the above and brings the listener closer to "real sound." It is natural, whole, organic, more like what one hear in the flesh. Best, Rob, YMMV. |
Volleyguy1
Do yourself a favor and go to Jeff Day Blog at jeffsplace.me and read his change in his Dueland Cast to the Western Electric 16ga to his Tannoy Westminster Royals...read the rest of his material WE wire his Macs, Garrard 301, and his other stuff. Extremely informative. In case you don't know Jeff formerly reviewed for 6 Moons and currently for Positive Feedback. Most important read all about Shirokazu Yazaki-san, the designer of the SS SPEC Real Sound amplifier reviewed in Positive Feedback by Jeff Day. Yazaki-San was gracious enough to turn all of us on to the WE 16ga speaker cable and Belden 8402 interconnect; Yazaki-San is a master 300B builder/designer with vast knowledge. He was kind to share his information and has made many folks happy by turning us on to these wires. Many of us have dumped multiple thousan dollar speaker cables and interconnect for the WE and Belden and are ecstatic that we did. Best, Rob |
