No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this! Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup? I think I've figured it out.
geoffkait may be right (mark this day in your century calendar).
This is from some cable test where around 50 people showed up. Obviously, those are people more obsessed with audio reproduction than average. Out of them...
"55% of voting audience uses bulk wire (not branded) on their home systems. Of those that use branded cables, 72% cost $500 or less per set in retail dollars. Therefore, 13% of audience use “expensive cables”, 33% use branded cables $500 or less."
After reading and following this thread from the beginning, I still fail to understand how a fraction of an ohm (or a few milliohms for that matter) can have such a profound effect? When you consider the average speaker's actual impedance curve does not adhere to the rated impedance. My 10GA cables are estimated to pass around 60 or 70 amps. Will a 300A rating make difference? Do I risk the threat of copper thieves breaking into my house and stealing my speaker cable? Please excuse my rambling
I’ve been buying high end cables for forty years and never spent as much as what it costs for the extra thick car battery type cables. The whole premise that audiophiles are being duped into paying great amounts for cables is ridiculous and simply not true. Of course, their are some audiophiles who buy very expensive cables. This is especially true since the Great Depression. Just like some people buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis. But they’re outliers. They don’t represent a trend or average or anything. Most people have learned to be financially conservative. We buy used. Hel-loo! I don’t see too many audiophiles buying $100,000 turntables, either, these days especially. You’re the only one who’s not happy. Everybody else is happy. Where’s the beef? 🐂
Cable manufacturers have provided more bang for the buck by evolving the whole cable technology, you know, by incorporating very pure metals, advanced geometries, long crystal copper, advanced welding techniques, cryogenics, controlling wire directionality and establishing data for cable burn in. What’s not to like? Revel in your time! 😀
I know close to nothing about damping factor but am perplexed by such a finite statement. Why do manufacturers of not-so-shabby products mention damping factor then? Is there any reason why a manufacturer of an amplifier would write in a promo material that "damping factor was increased from 205 to 260"? I know it is a promo material, but they get their stripes not on those numbers most of the time.
I would like to think that the cables industry will catch up and fix the
wrong, to get things done properly. Not a big deal. It is not that all the
sudden we won't need cables any more. We just need a different type of cable to
be made per spec. That spec. shall be calculated and not guessed.
On that issue, without undermined your concern to be fair with the cables
industry, what about us, the customers that were told wrong so long and been
asked to pay an arm and a leg for that? Do you think it was fair?
I also would check how we would trust such an industry that had no idea
for so long, what they were doing and taking advantage of us. What about all
the urbn myths that they spread efficiently. So efficiently that people brought
it up on this thread as an argument! You don't mind about all that?
It is not me to invent DF or plant it into your amplifier you already
own. If your DF is achieved by feedback, it is the amplifier designer and
maker's choice and not mine. This thread is not about modifying a given
amplifier's DF to make you happy. All here have an Amp. with a given DF, whatever
it is.
There is nothing wrong if a well designed amplifier has a high DF even
if it is achieved by feedback. Feedback is not a bad word. Some excellent stuff
out there is just made like that, to include the M1.
Whatever you like it or not, getting a cable by others experiences (more
or less, whatever they might say) or by a listening judgment is so wrong. A
speaker cable shall be tailored by the amplifier it is connected to, with
calculated values and characteristics. Not empirical guess or a blind listening
cession. Sorry if that is against your convention. See no issue for you
to try it and hear it by yourself. For those who already did, it is a win-win
situation.
He keeps banging on about damping factor too when it is NOT predictive as to how an amp, cable, speaker will sound. In fact, damping factor means nothing. To my ears, those amps with the highest DF sound like (your favorite scatological noun here) because they implement excessive feedback to control an otherwise unstable circuit!
@b4icu I have not had the chance to compare the FM Acoustics directly to the CH Precision using the same speakers. It’s a known fact that FM Acoustics produces very nice electronics, they have been around for many years as well. I’m quite sure that a full line up of FM Acoustics would perform very well indeed, and so there are still quite a few other manufacturers who produce very nice equipment at the highest level. The point is that they are not always available in the country of residence, so choices are not always as divers as in other (your) countries. What I usually do is use electronics from the same origin, so either a full set up of brand A, or a full set up of brand B. That’s the reason I currently play with C1/X1, D1/X1, L1/X1, M1 all made by CH Precision. (Only the bass towers use Gryphon dedicated amplifiers). Cables are either by CH Precision or Gryphon. Only the speaker cables are made by Kharma, and are also the oldest components in the line up. Usually a manufacturer will do its utmost to "tune" the components to each other, and often a combination of such equipment may perform better than a mixture of different brands. Another point to consider is that it also looks good, to me that’s important too. Speakers may be an exception, and are of a different brand. (Gryphon Pendragon). Sorry, this is a little off topic, but as you had asked for it ;)
The Parallel-plate model,
of two thin parallel conductive plates resembling the two speaker wires
(red and black) with a dielectric material in between (the cable's isolators).
The structure of such
speaker cable is provided by how the two wires are embedded into the isolator.
Some are round and twisted, some are flat and are one next to the other (not
top over the other!). This is mostly defined by the length and width of the
cable (equal area of a capacitor plates) the distance in between (the two
wires) and the isolating material that gets in between. It is always about two
of them: the red wire isolator and the black wire isolator.
Some designs separate the
two cables (my DIY approach), to be of two different cables. Then they are
apart from each other and not run in parallel as with some other designs.
In most cables, such a
capacitance is of a few Pico farads (10-9) and it is a very small value in
general, especially when refer to a voltage source as a SS, with very low output
resistance and at audio frequencies (up to 100kHz).
The Mutual inductance of two parallel straight wires is the more
relevant to speaker cables, unless you have a long cable coiled on the floor. Again,
if the two are separate (my DIY approach) the inductance is null. In some
cables that would run the two wires in parallel as in flat cables, of the
twisted pair approach, it is more of a concern. But even there, at most times
the value of such Inductance is of micro Henry (10-6). Also a tiny value
compared to the cross over coils and the speaker drivers. The value is too
small to be of a concern with most SS amplification and the audio frequency
range.
The ideal cable would be one with no Inductance and no Capacitance (also
no resistance). Presence of such impedance of a speaker cable (or any cable)
might work as a filter, depends of topology and values. No one wants that over
a cable. Some of the amplifiers (tube and tube alike) are more susceptible to
cable impedance and those would color the sound. At those cases a negligible thing
might become noticeable.
The higher the FR, the more of that energy is absolved by the capacitor.
If a cable is presented with an inductance, it would be serial. That is also a
LPF. (Ref. to the RLC model).
Summary:
Cables with impedance are
less good for a 1:1 transfer function as a speaker cable.
Separate cables as my DIY approach,
would be the best to decrease any impedance to null.
Cables that are molded in a
parallel structure, flat or in twisted pairs, may have an impedance factor. Try
to avoid them as much as possible.
A cable's impedance (of
significant values) would act as a LPF on an audio signal and will dim the
highs vs. other FR.
From now on, please keep the impedance
issue out of my cables solution. They do not apply.
@b4icu Why I choose the M1 ? The M1 provides me the highest dynamics and is more transparent than any other amp I've had or heard. But I have to admit that the difference may also be caused partially by the pre-amp, which I switched at the same time. I have a set-up using everything from the same manufacturer, and this combination is just amazing.
I will report back on my 0 gauge cables in the future based on how they sound to my ears🙂 just the same as others have done here with your recipe. You have but one recipe in a speaker cable cookbook offering near endless recipe ideas. Remember, you are just one recipe and it may or may not taste the best based on the taster’s preferences.
Please watch your language. I gave you no titles and kept this thread respectful.
This will be your last slip.
A speaker cable is a wire. Wires should not have other than resistance
value. What turns a resistive component into impedance are capacitance and
inductive elements. A cable that brings lots of that is a bad cable. Most
cables (that has the red and black wires together into a single cable, are
having some of that as they are having some isolation and they tend to be a
twisted pair). My idea as presented to your convenience DIY, are
singles!
But even if you use a cable with such impedance properties, they are
tiny. As the amplifier's output resistance is very low (exclude tube and tube
alike) those impedance values are negligible. So they are with the capacitors
and coils values found inside the speaker (crossover).
I wouldn't put my money on that cable impedance, unless you can prove
some FR variation by calculations or measurements. It may have a FR deviation
on interconnect cables. They are connected between two relatively higher input
and output resistance of the components they connect.
An audio component input resistance is of 10k Ohms or more (A MM is 47k
Ohms). A speaker's input impedance is 4-8 Ohms. So is the output resistance
ratio. Interconnects have way higher impedance values than speaker cables, due
to the shield and structure. So what may apply to an interconnect cable, is far
from being correct for a speaker cable. Please be kindly reminded that this
thread is for speaker cables.
A speaker cable is a wire. It has no components (well, some do have a
box on the cable, like MIT), and no power source. So it is a passive element. A
speaker cable roll is to pass the amplifier's output to the speakers 1:1.
Any cable that doesn't do that is actually attenuating that amp's output
in some way. If you connect two (or more cables) between the same amp and
speakers, and they sound different, all but one, or all do some damage by not
passing that signal 100% to the speakers. Only that could explain the
difference.
Capacitance (C) and inductance (L) even if there is some, its value is
very small. The capacitance is in pF (10-9) and the inductance in uH (10-6).
Such small value, in a circuit that the amp's output resistance is close to
null, has no audible (more than +/-0.1dB) effect on FR.
In a sound system we have plenty of elements that do influence the end
result. It starts with the speakers of choice, the room we place them in, the
placement of the speakers in that room, and then the electronics. Why do I need
more variables, like cables to modify our sound? Where did you go wrong with
that list, ending up looking for a remedy with the cables, and also willing to
pay for that?
As we gave up the EQ stuff, when each slide had its clear frequency and
gain set, we are getting back an EQ (sought of) with no idea what it really
does on the frequency band or at the level of attenuation to our sound. We just
follow blind folded our ears or a sales guy say, without having the tiniest
clue of where we were and what do we ended up with. Throwing a dice has fewer
options!
B4icu, If you think any two cables with the same resistance sound the same, you're truly a fool. It's entirely possible for two cables with identical resistance to have very different impedance characteristics. Every single time you post you expose yourself as more and more ignorant.
I think very different on the matter. A sound of a system should not be played with speaker cables or any cables. Hi-end pushed away the old (70’s) tone controls, EQ and other options to fiddle with the sound, on demand for purity. No distortion, no phase shift and no unnatural effects to the source. So why let some cable, we know nothing about its properties, or how it affects sound take command?
Using ears to measure the sound quality. You may know that our ears are not a measurement instrument. Have you done lately a hearing test by lab? You know that a man’s hearing is dropping with age and may be damaged by some noise to exposed to in the past. This method of accepting someone’s word claiming he has the golden years, would need more proof than a calculation method.
As I said before (I don’t like repeating myself), when a speaker cable has a higher resistance than it should (not optimal vs. the amplification), it disables the system to deliver its full potential. The way I see it, that you play with that figure and practically do more damage than good. Who wants a sound system that he paid for $10,000.- to be used at only 20% or 50%? It’s like throwing $5,000 - $8,000 to the garbage can. I would like to believe that if you put this question to all clients, they would ask for the full 100%.
At a time you have the impression that you are getting someone’s system better, you just play along that range of how much of the optimal sound it will deliver. Even when you apply a cable that you and the customer likes, you may have no idea where are you on that optimal scale between almost nothing to 100%. It is a blind shot in the dark. I would rather take an approach I can deliver the full 100% every time (using some math rather than be depended on someone else likes and experience).
With my way, I can not only calculate, what the optimal cable is, but also calculate a given cable, how good or far it is from being optimal. That may give you an idea of some of your recent recommendations, how close and good, or how far and bad you did.
You never answered me of what is the thickest cable you got in your shop and how much that costs?
However, you did rest my case about no one really know what is the right cable especially those who make them. If I would try several dealers, with different experience and taste to sound, I would end up with as many different cables as dealers. To my perception its wrong!
I think that all the combination of the elements (cooper/silver/gold) is
only to have a certain resistance. If that resistance is equal with two cables
built different and from different elements, they will sound the same on a
given system.
Regarding the feedback of the M1, it is interesting. It might be the
strongest sales point of this amp. and for you any setup from 0% to full scale feedback,
doesn't make any different. why is this amp. better for you than any other
amp.?
@b4icu Ok, so let us agree that the wire gauge (cable resistance) is an indicator, and let's say that that has been addressed, so what is your opinion about cable materials, OCC copper, Silver, Silver alloys (Silver/gold) cable construction, possible vibration reducing measures etc. Would you agree that the above variances could possibly result in audible differences? I don't want to touch on other issues like burn in or other possible treatments which are claimed by others to have an impact on the overall sound. At least I find this thread interesting, it provides us with another "point of view". It may or may not have been a coincidence that when many years ago when I bought the -most likely- biggest gauge speaker cables on the market, that I heard a real improvement with the speakers I was using at that point of time (B&W 802D with Bryston 7B2). I've used these cables ever since, but as you mentioned before, when using with Ribbons different rules apply. (Just for your information as you had asked some time ago about the global feedback settings on my M1, I have checked and found that many month ago I had chosen 0% Global Feedback. But as mentioned earlier, I could not really hear differences with my ears and my speakers. Again, thanks for your contribution, it's one of the more meaningful threads at this moment.
It all started in 1977 (or there about) with Polk Cobra Cable, high capacitance, loudspeaker cable from Japan, followed by Fulton Gold 4ga., then Monster. It is interesting that after 40+ years and hundred of thousands of speaker cables bought and used, that this secret formula has just been discovered and released. This cure all theory is backed by a half dozen experimenters that have given early praise of first impressions. It has been my experience that long term use will reveal warts that go undetected during the initial experience.
Sorry you missed some of this tread, explaining that every amp-speaker has its optimum cable, by engineering calculation.
You are in fact correct, I previously had only read parts of the thread, so I went back and read the whole thing. Between ROTFLMFAO and taking aspirin to make my headache go away, I learned there are apparently 3 lucky beneficiaries of the secret engineering calculation that primarily shows just about everyone (except the three) is using speaker cables that are too small. Not sure why 6 pages of posts were required to uncover this sensational revelation but hey, whatever it takes to move the industry forward.
Wire alone cannot possibly cure all the ills or preferences of a given system. The right cabling can help directionally get to the end goal.
Even various 0 gauge cabling will sound different based on the cable’s design and materials employed. A tinned finely stranded copper will sound different than un-tinned stranded copper. The gauge of the strands can impact the sound in obvious ways. Copper clad aluminum cabling will sound far different than any cables mentioned above. All these cables will sound different even if they are all 0 gauge. We haven’t even talked about the outer jacket material which also impacts the sound.
@mitch2 and others know this from experience.
You can see my ads here on Agon. I have built several sets of 7 gauge speaker cables. 12 and 10 gauge seem most popular. I am interested in trying thicker gauge and will test over time. Over the years I have learned that there is no ONE WAY to build anything in Audio that is always the best for all people. The best you can hope for is a recipe that pleases as many Aphiles as possible.
Do any cable maker provides with their product some guidance,
instructions or suggestions, what cable may fit best a given system or be the
right answer for a customer need?
Or they leave it all in your (and many other sales people) hands?
In your words, if someone would come and say that his sound is on the
bright side, you would suggest a speaker cable that would solve that? Or if a
customer would ask for a cable that would bring to live the highs, you have a
solution for that, with a speaker cable?
So for a customer that would like to improve his bass. Have it stronger
and tighter?
Could you please answer what is the thicker cable you have to offer and
what it costs?
Sorry you missed some of this tread, explaining that every amp-speaker
has its optimum cable, by engineering calculation. The tweaks of a sound system
shall be done other than on a copper wire between the amp and the speakers. No,
no one cable for all. The cables are different by the equipment they serve and length
required.
Not to say, that the claim is of having a speaker cable that would bring
out 100% of a system, rather than have a wire you or others might suggest, that
you think is good sounding, but would deliver only 20%-50% of that system's
potential.
Please be kind to read the sharing on this thread, of people who made
the change and were kind to share. None of the cable you are talking about
would get this kind of improvement.
No, based on my customers likes and dislikes and areas they want to improve on. They know how their rig sounds and what they want more or less of etc...Many thrilled customers as my feedback testifies to.
I sell lots of ICs and USB cables right now.
There is no blueprint that can handle human preferences and the countless system iterations and room environments that exist. It always comes down to the ears of the customer are our own ears. Always.
Wouldn’t you feel better if you would have a blue print or a formula in hand, that would specify by engineering methods what is the optimum cable that customer really needs?
When you find one then by all means clue us in. If everyone had the same opinion of how the “optimum” cable sounds then we would only need one cable manufacturer.
I assume this method of "voice cables by ear" would apply when you sale a complete system, to include the amp and the speakers.
What if a customer comes in just for a speaker cable, and has a gear that you are not so familiar with its sound?
If I may summarize your method, it is mostly based on your intuition and some past experience that is based on your personal likes and dislikes. I have a little problem with that. You may know by now, that two people can listen to a system playing in an environment, and have different say about the very same sound. Wouldn’t you feel better if you would have a blue print or a formula in hand, that would specify by engineering methods what is the optimum cable that customer really needs?
What is the thickest cable you can offer a customer? How much that cable cost?
@b4icu. I voice my cables by ear. I use what some refer to as “tone” wire and change the gauge, construction and connectors based on what folks want sonically. I am a custom builder. I love the sound of Duelund stranded and tinned copper in oil impregnated cotton and use it often.
I also perform modifications to speaker crossovers and tube gear. I know what parts sound like based on my long experiece using them and match this knowledge with what the customer is looking for. Yes, I use my ears and known sonic differences between types and brands of wire, caps, resistors, inductors, rectifiers etc....
It is just me making cables out of a spare bedroom driven by a passion to help fellow Aphiles enjoy their systems more fully for reasonable money. Very small part time business that is gratifying.
Thanks for coming forward and saying you are a cable seller. Just
for a curiosity, how do you match and offer a speaker cable to a customer?
Could you please describe the process and the method to do that match? Thanks.
I tend to agree to your say regarding the so far made DIY cables to be properly built cables
that have been well maintained (for under $60 they are very nice and good).
They can do to improve that DIY in time. You say "higher quality". Do
you mean higher quality built?
What is higher quality cable, if the new DIY tried here provided way
better sound than the previous cable. The only parameter that a speaker cable
has as a quality is its resistance, to match the amp's spec. Nothing is of a higher quality than a
perfect resistance match.
The cable I built and sent to Vancouver BC, my friend took it to a Hi-Fi
store to compare it. The sales man used a Nordost cable worth $3,000 to compare
with. My cable performed better than the Nordost. It was not a perfect match to
that amp. (Anthem) that they hooked up with. Most likely that the Nordost was
even a worst match. When my friend hooked it up to his amp (Emotiva) things
really got nice. You can read his testimony…a few posts earlier.
If audio signals and video signals would be the same, most likely we
would need only one name for them. They have a different nature, especially
that speaker cables deliver a higher power / current than a signal cable, like
an interconnect cable or a cable TV.
For the same reason, USB cables are different than video, and so is LAN.
All for a reason. Video and interconnect cables need shield (EMI / RFI) while
speaker cables don't. The idea to put them all on the same pile and assume that
if it is a cable it can be any cable, is basically wrong. Every type of cable
has its individual design and rules, its individual property and its individual
task.
It seems that a lot of posts were clutter. Not a big deal. Lesson was learned, especially when those who wrote them have a clear interest on this thread. From now on I’ll try to avoid them. Let’s call it spam.
I’ll rather concentrate on answering people’s questions, of what cable I recommend to their setup, and add new sharing to my table and post it, with comments if any.
Regarding some big names in the industry that do their own spades and banana plugs, I doubt it. It is most likely they have an OEM source, to order and buy from. However, even if they do make spades and banana plugs, it is not a good idea to connect those directly to the thick cable (like a 4-0 AWG). From my point of view, they never wonted too, as they never thought this is the solution for the speaker cables problem. If they would, they most likely would try it already.
@glupson,I am very well aware.But going through all the pages, there is a lot of confusion and conflict. Anyone who opposes the OP is seen as a dealer. Only OP has the best technology. Not sure if he can prove that by comparing or challenging anyone. I also don't see OP's system for the actual wire he has created or using.
Cardas, AQ, Furutech and others make their own connectors and could easily make a connector to handle up to 0 gauge if they wanted to or felt they needed to. They would love to sell such huge cables and connectors and could charge big bucks for them. They would make even more money. This whole idea of huge gauge, when needed, would be a brand new marketing and sales opportunity for them to capitalize on. The argument suggesting they only make and sell smaller gauge wire and connectors out of nessesity is just plain out of step with the truth. The truth is these companies just don’t buy into this notion based on their own base of knowledge and testing. Are they right? Is the OP right? I think various methods and designs can sound great.
Mapleshade, Michael Green Audio and others passionately believe that the smallest of gauge wire makes for the best sound. Polar opposite of the OP. Just their particular theory and notion.
Thus far we have a couple of examples where the OP style cable sounded better than the prior cable being used. Problem is in two of these cases the original cables were nothing special. In looking at pictures one set had bare copper wire ends that appeared to be completely oxidized and needed to be cut away and re-stripped for better sound.
Looking forward to seeing the OP cables being compared to higher quality, properly built cables that have been well maintained.
I agree with @shadowcat2016 and am planning a build. It is fun for me both as an avid DIYer and cable seller.
All very interesting and somewhat entertaining...............b4icu MAY have a valid point concerning what is best or at least better, vs what is PRACTICAL..........As some have already seen, connecting "0" awg to any gear I've ever seen is at the least challenging. They're simply not designed for welding cable, per se, so cable makers are forced by physical constraints to work with what fits, even (possibly) knowing that they could do better.............just a theory............Still haven't tried this myself, as I have other priorities at the moment, but I do plan to give it a whorl at some point...............worst case it does nothing impressive and didn't cost much to find out. Best case, a little money well spent and my system sounds better................We can argue theory, intelligence, credentials, integrity, etc. all day.............Bottom line, as with everything audio, is that you will hear an improvement, or you won't.........It's a cheap enough tweek to roll the dice............How many tweeks do you already have collecting dust, what's one more if it works??
OK here’s a little factoid since we’re so engrossed in AUDIO cables. VIDEO cables are FAR more demanding of the TRANSMISSION of the SIGNAL relative to AUDIO. Low capacitance and resistance are REQUIRED to do this and over long distances. If such cables work well for VIDEO, they will also work well for AUDIO. VIDEO transmission has had MUCH R&D to succeed.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
