No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this! Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup? I think I've figured it out.
The base to the approach came from Bi-Amp (or Tri Amp.), in which the
crossover was bypassed. An electronic cross is placed between the Pre and the
powers. Each band that drives each of the units of that speaker is getting its
specific audio band, its specific amplification and speaker cables. This is
better than the ordinary method, because the speaker's crossover contributes
some distortion that is avoided by the Bi/Tri amp.
Some manufacturers came up with an idea (not really works in real!) that
if it's not Bi amp, it can be Bi-wired. The claim was, that the low Fr. Currents
related to the woofer, won't affect the currents of the high Fr of the midrange
and the tweeter. The Bi-wire became over night popular and most speaker makers
provided two sets of binding posts and some flat jumpers.
This approach was good, if such a speaker owner would like to go Bi-amp
without the need in some cases to replace the speaker or drill holes for more binding posts. The internal cross should be removed and
bypassed in most cases.
If a simulation is run on a computer SW called "Spice" (most
common for analog HW simulation with design) and the two options: Bi wire and single wire)
are run, with identical speaker wires (represented by resistors of small
value), the result of a single wire is better than a bi-wire.
To understand the why, a Bi-wire approach separates the current loops.
So the low Fr. Loop, that drives most of the current, by nature of the audio
band behavior, has only 1/2 of the cross section available, vs. one single thicker
wire. The high Fr. Loop has the same cross section available, even it does not
need that much. So you get one cable that is not really been fully used and one
that is under sized for the requirement.
Digging deeper, for the Amp. it is the same.
So is for the speaker.
A wire can pass all frequencies as long thier total cuerrent does not exced the wires capabity. We most likely far from that in Audio.
You just have a less good speaker cable with the bi-wire. I would like
to believe that we are gathered here to improve that part in our system.
I may be mistaken here, but isn’t the net effect of this and bi-wiring the same? My understanding is that bi-amping connects one pair of terminals at the amp end along four lengths of wire, connecting to four terminals at the speaker end ...
Yes, you are mistaken. In a two-channel system, biamping uses two stereo amplifiers (or four monoblocs), with a separate amplifier channel used for each LF and HF section of each speaker system.
Ideally, this is done using an active crossover between the preamp and the amplifiers, so that each amp "sees" only the frequencies it will be driving.
I may be mistaken here, but isn’t the net effect of this and bi-wiring the same? My understanding is that bi-wiring connects one pair of terminals at the amp end along four lengths of wire, connecting to four terminals at the speaker end. Given that both pairs of cable carry full range signals, what you’re effectively doing is increasing the gauge of the cable that’s delivering the signal to the speaker.
And that’s the same principle we’re talking about in this thread.
What b4icu is doing is setting a lower limit on the gauge of the cable that connects the speakers and amp. He’s been saying all along (I think) that it doesn’t matter whether you use one cable, two, or 10, as long as the combined gauge meets that lower limit, you’ll get the improvement.
Now, whether you agree that the DF of an amp is in any way an indicator of what cable you need, or whether b4icu has a formula that works, or even whether there’s a theoretical maximum gauge of cable for an amps DF (why not just go 8/0 and be done with it), is a separate point. As are cable weaves and twists, insulation material, termination solder material, etc.
My point is, like for like, bi-wired 12 awg should be the same as a single cable of 9 awg, so why wouldn’t upping the gauge to 0 have a bigger difference? Or is there some benefit to carrying the same full range signal along two cables?
Happy to be schooled, but I’m also going to try this idea out.
1.
The Bi-wire thing is not of
any advantage over single wire, as long their combined cross section (or gauge)
of the bi-wire equals to the single wire. It was a trend with a story (another
urban myth blown away) in the 90's.
2.
All Telos 600 amp's
need the same speaker cable as I've told you, as it depends on the Dumping
Factor of the amp. and not the load (the speaker). That apply to all amp's
you have.
3.
Pass labs 350.8 (all X
series have the same DF) Dumping Factor is 150. A bit poor, but it is what it is. He needs a 4 AWG for the 2.5-3m
length.
A Lovely Setup. I made a set of cables to my friend here who has a Pass Lab 250.8 and a B&W 802D speaker.
4.
Who said it's coming for
free? :-)
You and your friend are kindly requested to share your data and impressions of
the sound with your new cables ref. to the once replaced.
I hope you can do that for me…? Thanks.
With the "special coaxial connector for the Telos 600 amp.",
I
contacted Mr. Rodolphe from Goldmund, Swiss just before the
weekend. I'll most likely get his educated answer tomorrow (Mon.).
He would rather specify this special connector and a source, or offer a Goldmund's
matching connectors.
Michael, presently both ends are connected by spades.
I just went to douglasconnection.com introduce by grannyring to purchase 8 banana and 8 spade connectors size for 4AWG wire. On checkout, they only ship to a US address. I am not from US, so I contacted them by email to see if they can help. Waiting for their response.
I plan to use banana at the Telos 600 end and spade at the speaker end. So I run 4awg 1.5m to mid/high and another 4awg 1.5m to the woofer. I cannot find special coaxial connector for the amp.
I have another Telos 600 connected to the Revel Voice 2 Centre speaker, should I use the same 4AWG 1.5m?
My good friend have a Passlabs 350.8 to Wilson Alexia Speakers 2.5m. Kindly advise for his cable size. Thank you so much for all your help. We would have save lots of money if we know you earlier. Have a good day.
I may split the cable into two equal portions then both crimp and solder. A good soldering iron would flow solder without too much difficulty and quickly. I like the termination process of crimp and solder. I would simply stack the two spades at the binding post. Still thinking on this.
If you use the terminal ring/spade linked above, you can crimp the terminal with 8” channel locks. The medal is soft. Alternatively, Amazon has $15 crimping tools, including one that has a cradle and piston you hit with a hammer. I suggest you try the channel locks first, allowing one of the tabs on the terminal to overlap the other. To keep the wire from coming out of the terminal, I bent over few of the strands before crimping. I achieved a very tight and secure fit.
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My two cents on your brave act:
Those were the best $45 (+$12) you ever invested in your audio system or ever spent.
You
talk of over $2,000 spent on speaker cables with no much audible benefit. Then spend
$45 and : "The results are stunning".
For
the record, your cables been improved by X20. I assume that your description of
the new sound tells the rest of the story…
For
that reason, a silver cable of the same gauge, would add 5.4% over the x20 times
you already have. It will be un noticed, but cost way more than $45.-
Thanks
in believing me. Many didn't. Some of the none believers, you can find on a parallel threads, getting banana to keep
spreading their outrageous believes.
Just
imagine, what you were missing till this thread.
People
always under estimated the speaker cables. It was something between getting a
wire from the cheapest spool in the shop, or investing big in cables that never
delivered.
I
wish this change will spread. I hope that audiophiles will realize the truth
behind this subject. I regrat all the ignorance, urban legends and tones of
money thrown out for absolutely nothing!
Those,
who invested big in their system, deserve to enjoy all that goodness. Mostly,
because they never did till now!
Many
keep upgrading, at a time they have the right sound system but the wrong speaker
cable. They keep spending at a time they are only $45 from accomplishment.
I
hope that your description will help others to do a step toward the right
speaker cable and join the experience. There is little to lose and a lot to
gain.
I'm
sorry for all those who tried fighting this idea, for no particular reason,
rather than give it a descent try.
By
the time we gather more impressions, it will be a weak up call for them, to do some
changes with their attitude.
Be careful
with the volume, ribbon tend to clip at high volume. It can also clip your amp.
If
you like it loud and live like, try a Klipsch Horn. I own a pair of Forte –II. Nothing
I ever heard, can reproduce a drum cession live like. The Forte –II does.
I replaced DIY 5 foot 16 AWG silver ladder line. Have previously used a variety of commercial Helix design, solid flat wire and braided multi-stranded wires insulated and in multiple sleeves. Alll 12 AWG, 5 to 8 foot length. Costs ranged from $400 to $2,000.
"I’ll do say, that there is a no much sense in matching a Thiel CS2.4 to a Manley NEO 250! https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs24-loudspeaker-measurements https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/ That is a 4 ohms speaker and goes down to 2.73 ohms at 600Hz ! with 88dB/w/m SPL. one of the most difficult to drive. I hope you enjoy the Manley NEO 2501.5% THDand its 14.8 DF vs. 2.73 ohms... In your case the cables are the last to worry about."
This simply proves my point. You know NOTHING about anything with regard to HiFi. But keep on plugging your 0 AWG battery cables, which also proves my point.
Could you please help me out with some supporting information? I posted just above this:
When the time will come, to share your impression here, please do it in some ordinary way:
> Specify your Amp and speakers: Pass Lab 250.5 with Magnepan III's.
> Specify the previous cable that was replaced: just gauge and length. (?)
Please avoid brand and model. Thanks.
You may add how much that cable cost…
(?)
> Specify your new cable: gauge and length. If other than was: 0 AWG, 5 feet long
recommended, please notice what was recommended too. (if different from
0 AWG, 5 feet long)
Would you please be kind to do that for me? Thanks.
I’m really happy that it worked for you. I didn’t say it won’t work for none coil loaded speakers, I just claimed it is different. On the theory and the drowing board, it is. Some pictures of your cables would be more than welcome. Thanks.
For the record: > The same results would apply if you turn the cables direction! :-) > The same results would apply if you say they were cryogenic treated! :-) > If you make another set, at the time this set "goes through" a so called burn in, and then after some time you will connect the new cable, it will sound exactly the same. No "burn-in" excuse is required when the results are:
jaw dropping.
It sounds good from the first moment. Trust me on that.
Wish you lots of hours playing your music and discover tones of new sound bit’s you never know it’s there.
As I said, you were listening to only some of your system potential before. Now you are listening to ALL of it.
It is not only your ears that approve it, but some engineering calculations, I stand behind it. Something that never been done before with most systems. Welcome to the club. Thanks you again.
For all other, who are yet in the process getting there, it might be a nice clue of what is comming at you, when you are ready. God bless you.
I purchased 25 feet of 0 AWG form a supplier on eBay for $45 ($12 shipping) and four brass (supposedly gold plated) battery connectors ($7.49).
I constructed four five foot cables in just over one hour. Battery connectors were converted to spades with a cold chisel and wire cutters, cable was cut with a hacksaw and insulation stripped with the hacksaw. Spades were connected to Pass Labs 250.5 terminals (PL does not supply banana plug receptacles). I attached banana plugs to a two inch piece of silver plated 8 AWG wire. I hollowed out a holle in 0 AWG wire with a punch and did not remove insulation. I then inserted the stripped 8 AWG wire in hole and secured the assembly with a hose clamp around the insulation at the cable’s end.
The cables were attached to my thirty year old modified MG IIIa’s. The results are stunning. The amount of undistorted energy filling the room, is jaw dropping. I keep turning up the volume to levels that previously irritated my ears, and experience no irritation. In the modified lyrics of B.B. King, “The shrill is gone.” My wife is hearing new detail in cuts she has listened to many times before.
In my case, b4icu, you were absolutely correct, thank you (except for the part of you doubting ribbon speakers would be improved with installation of your design). I can’t wait to try the cables in one of my other systems that employs cone speakers.
I am am sure every case is different. Nevertheless, I encourage other hobbiest to test your theories.
As
I already established a communication line with Goldmund and Mr. Rodolphe, I
posted him some questions regarding the Telos 600 special
speaker connectors.
I'll
share that with you as soon as he will reply.
The
connectors you call BNC are not BNC! GOLDMUND TELOS 600 : http://www.audiounion.jp/ct/detail/used/95826/
Or the last page of your GOLDMUND TELOS 600 RTFM.
BNC: https://www.iitk.ac.in/ibc/BNC.pdf
It looks more like an enlarge (not STD size, but very large) TNC.
GOLDMUND would be a good place to start with. I don't like this
"unique" approach. However, the TELOS 600 have also 4 ordinary binding posts.
I am kind of confused...how did you connect the GOLDMUND TELOS 600 with
your speakers till now?
b4icu, I will share my impression on this exchange. I paid $25k for 2 pair after discount. The Goldmund amp have 2 male BNC output for speaker connections. Anybody know where I can buy the female connectors. I plan to connect the 6AWG cable by this connection if I can source the female connectors. Many thanks to all.
Nice choices. Let us know. I saw those same spades and they should works nicely. If to big or bulky to fit, then you can buy spade to banana high quality connectors.
I ordered mine and they came in slightly cheaper than I was expecting, £125. They're being cut and crimped this weekend and will be shipped to me on Monday, I should have them hooked up at the end of the week so I'll report back with images.
I like the idea of direct connection much better with high quality connectors. The resulting sound will be better. The idea of splitting the cable into two equal portions and terminating with a spade and banana for direct connection to the binding post is a good option. It reduces the strain on each connector also. The wire link I gave is for very finely stranded copper (thousands) with is very flexible and easier to work with. It is pure copper, not copper clad aluminum which would not sound as good.
My solution, as seen on one of my posts, was to use a short 8 AWG agent wire, between the banana plug and the thick cable. It is also good for the strain relief on the contact point of the cable with the binding posts.
Even if I would find a banana plug that could take a 0 AWG cable, I doubt it if I would use it.
Keep in mind that it is difficult to work with a 0 AWG cable. It is very different then the ordinary 12-14 AWG cables.
The thick cable are separates. As so, no capacitance is developed. Capacitance is defined as the dielectric value developed between two metal plates at a steady distance... The cables are meant to be as short as possible. There are no extra wire on the floor that get coiled to create inductance. The Z of such a cable, if any, is negligible. Because the R is so low, capacitance or inductance are negligible.
I read through most of the posts and get the notion of the thicker the better for resistance but might have missed references to the inductance and the capacitance that these very thick cables add to the mix. Wouldn’t the additional inductance and capacitance act as low pass and high pass filters, respectively, and cause frequency roll-offs? Was this issue addressed in the exchanges among the "experts"?
I did find 5AWG high end bananas. I would like to try the 3/0 cables the OP suggested based on my 20 foot runs and gear. I may try 0 AWG. Problem is the cost to try is $400. I like the sound of stranded tinned copper wire sold by folks like Duelund, Supra, and Western Electric and always wondered if thicker gauge would sound even better based on my long lengths. There is a source for this as thick as 4/0 AWG. If the bananas were stackable I could split the thick conductor into two equal parts and terminate with stacked bananas or a combo of banana and spade. I have not found a high end 5 AWG spade connector however.
If if anyone finds a spade or banana of good quality, very important, that accepts 4 AWG or thicker let us know.
I am open minded to this and if the cost to try was lower I would do it. I would not use anything other than high purity, oxygen free, stranded tinned copper for this however. The strands need to fine. The connectors also need to be of high quality. As mentioned above, one can split the conductor into two equal parts and terminate with a combo of spade and banana connectors.
Here is a link for the 5 AWG banana connectors. Just scroll down to find them.
Here is a link to the stranded and tinned bulk cable I would use. The maker offers all kinds of gauges. I think they were referred to in another post above. I do not know if the wire used sounds as good as Duelund, WE, or Supra. The Duelund is cryo treated and that does make a positive sound quality difference. I know the OP has a different opinion. I have done comparisons and not sure if he has. My opinion is based on actual testing and listening. I suppose one could send out this wire to be cryo treated.
One last point. To effectly reduce noise, especially over long runs, one really must twist the positive and negative runs. Well twisting this thick cable will give you a very thick bundle! Just something to consider.
Mr.
khiak You are welcome. All I'm asking in return, that you share with us your impressions from that exchange. Thanks.
How much did you pay for a set of 2m Kharma KESL Speaker cable?
Mr. khiak Bi-wire is another urban legend, established in the 90’s. For a single cable at a X AWG is better than Bi-wire that the two, equals to the cross section or resistance of X AWG! This can be proved by simulation of the two circuits on "Spice". A cooper cable can conduct all audio frequencies at the same time. Some older TV designs, used wide band amplifiers, that would amplify two different frequency bande (IF and audio) to save.
As long as you are using your Telos 600, the wires need to be: 4 AWG@1.5m or 6 AWG@1.0m.
Can not find ant spec of your cables. Most are the Enigma...model. Also no Spec.
b4icu, Many thanks for your advice. Presently I bi-amp the Kharma with a Telos 600 driving the 25mm diamond tweeter and 165mm ceramic mid and another Telos 600 driving the 330mm Nomex-Kevlar woofer. Is both cable the same at 4AWG? What if I move the amps closer to the speaker and have 1 m cables instead? Thanks
Well done. You reached 11,881 posts. Yes, this is the way to have 12,000 posts soon. This may explain your reluctant nagging since I opened this thread. Clock in a digital audio device is jitter related. What jitter has to do with a speaker cable? Do you even understand what jitter is? Why it is of any concern, how much jitter is audible, and when does jitter becomes valid? You are accusing me of: " So, just because you declare these things irrelevant, hotshot, doesn’t make it so". At a time you just bring up things without supporting them by any technical background or sense, I doubt you if you understand them at all!
Good luck chuck with the 12,000 posts. Must be the achievement of your life time.
Do you collect any other points? Wal-Mart, Safeway, Gas station? Must be a lot of fun.
>>>>Wow! Let me point out it was you who misspoke technically when you stated the conductivity of silver is 9% greater than copper. Why you would assume you’re the only one who understands technical things here is simply bizarre. Can I suggest you might not be quite ready for prime time?
Thanks for the image, the cables sure are going to be monsters.
I'm going to get them terminated with spades (spades/forks, not rings as in your picture) so there'll be no cutting of the terminals required.
Everything is very close to the floor so weight shouldn't be an issue, but I appreciate it might. If they won't fit then I might use a connecting block to convert the 0awg to 4mm cable for the last inch or two.
I appreciate the concern and I take your advice on board; I'll be careful.
Mr. khiak I sincerely apologize for the delay. Here is the answer of Mr. Rodolphe BOULANGER, of Goldmund from Swiss, arrived short while ago: 10:58 12/10/2018 (Israel time).
"Dear Michael,
email well received as well as S/N .
The damping factor is Telos 600 damping factor: 400 at 1 KHz, on 8 Ω.
I hope it helps.
Thanks.
Best Regards.
Rodolphe BOULANGER Sales Director"
For 1.5m long cable @ 400DF you will need a 4 AWG cable.
Here are two spades (I call them also cable shoes: an 8 AWG and a 1/0 AWG. I laid them on a $50 bill, for you to have true size and proportions. Both are quite a tight fit to the wires, to ensure best contact when crimped.
A 2/0 AWG is thicker than a 1/0 AWG. Never used a 2/0 AWG, but the gauge table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Say that a 1/0 AWG has a 8.25246 mm in diameter, and a 2/0 AWG has a 9.26592 mm in diameter. It’s 10% or 1mm thicker wire.
I do not see a way that the flat side of that spade, even if you cut its front center out, is getting into a standard binding post.
I only try to save you some disappointment, when you get to the "bridge" and want to cross it.
I also would like to remind you, that the weight of a 2/0 AWG pulling down this spade from a binding post, is not the match I would like to see.
Some guys here, have equipment accesses of $1/4M! I would not dear to risk in that way. Please use extra caution.
I’m impressed you had mentioned specs. What specs of the Kimber Kable (12TC) cables is the one that you think would make it a perfect match to your system (Amp. and Speakers)?
Regarding the signal loss graph, I think that the vertical (x) should have been dB rather than m Ohms. Even then, it is a good sample of from where and why the skin effect might have came from…
Kimber always used wire counter on their products. What would do, to make their cable prevail over others? That’s right: The skin effect. As no other makes it that way, skin effect would be a good marketing argument. Is it for real? NO. But those who fall in this scheme, can bring it up on my thread as a saying to earn more points on posts.
From your post, the strongest saying is that you managed to get around with a $45 Chinese Kimber over an original for $750. Well done Sir.
It reminds me a boy who came home and say to his dad: I just saved you $2.50.
How come asks his father?
I run after a bus rather than take a ride.
Well said his dad:
Next time you better run after a taxi and save me $25.-
I love Kimber Kable (12TC). 8' pair cost $750. Chinese Kimber cost $45. Found out they have the same specs, so they sound the same. I did not have to listen to the expensive ones.
I have correct speaker cables, for me, when I hear more than I’ve heard before and didn’t spend an arm and a leg to do so. Plus, the overall balance and stage are "just right."
1. The Manley NEO 250 monoblocks is tube amplification (not much of difference with Damping Factor Triode: 14.8). 2. Cable length is missing. 3. You claim: " I have correct speaker cables ". Is that a real request to get help with new cables? 4. At
the time, your posts were so aggressive, that I took the liberty to be polite
and ignore them.
I’ll do say, that there is a no much sense in matching a Thiel CS2.4 to a Manley NEO 250! https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs24-loudspeaker-measurements https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/ That is a 4 ohms speaker and goes down to 2.73 ohms at 600Hz ! with 88dB/w/m SPL. one of the most difficult to drive. I hope you enjoy the Manley NEO 250 1.5% THD and its 14.8 DF vs. 2.73 ohms... In your case the cables are the last to worry about.
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