Rebbi,
Glad to hear that things are going well. Thanks for the update on the speakers.
Marty |
No argument re: MBL and value or lack thereof (vs. Ohm). My 100s are also far more neutral tonally than MBL 101s, the $58,200 MBL price premium notwithstanding.
Marty |
Just ordered a pair of 100s as recommended by John. They should arrive in 2-3 weeks and will go into rotation with my Parsifal Encores and Merlin VSMs (and ocassionally Zingali Overture 3s). I've heard the MBLs a bunch of times and loved the "staging", but couldn't abide the tonal balance. I'm really eager to sit down with these speakers and see how they compare with the horns, equalized dynamics, and modular systems I use now.
Shy of adding planars (my preferred choice, Soundlab, is too big), non-'Stat single driver systems (maybe one day), or DSP room corrected systems (just a matter of time), I guess I'm getting close to covering all loudspeaker design bases. I'll report back when the Ohms get here. Thanks for the help, everyone.
Marty |
John at Ohm told me that both the 100s and the Micro Talls work best at 2' from the front wall - the former for far field listening at greater SPLs, and the latter for nearfield at more modest levels.
Marty |
You should talk to John, but I'd guess he's going to suggest 100s. If you're more than 15' from the plane of the speakers, the Talls are not recommended.
good Luck
Marty |
My 100s are scheduled to arrive today. I'll give it a few days and post first impressions here early next week.
Marty |
Para,
I've had my 100s w/Velodyne SPLR 8 subs for a little over a month now. Of the 3 speakers I tried with these subs (actually 4, including a brief "what the heck-give it a shot" attempt with my Verity Parsifal Monitors), the Ohms have settled in as the clear favorite over Maggie MMGs and Carver Cinema ribbon monitors.
As a stand alone, the Ohms offer a very neutral tonal balance with unusual bass extention. In this respect (60ish hz on up), they can IMHO compete with anything out there at any price - just dead neutral! The deep bass, low 30s hz in my room actually feels a bit elevated and a subwoofer wouldn't seem necessary. They also provide a wide stage with images well behind the plane of the speakers. Additionally, images seem to have real "body" which is a rare and wonderful characteristic to find in any speaker system.
To my ear, the Ohm is less dynamic in reproducing big swings than my Verity or Merlin speakers, but this is the only significant shortcoming for me. The Verity is also more transparent to the source (and the Merlin more transparent than the Verity), but this isn't real high on my current list of priorities. Also, the recessed soundstage, while absolutely convincing, doesn't present front to rear depth like the Verity or Merlin - another nit to some, more important to others.
The addition of the subs makes the speaker more dynamic. It still doesn't quite match the other 2 I mentioned, but the gap is closed significantly. The Ohm is an incredibly easy mate for subs. I had a near perfect transition in 15 minutes. (By contrast, 8 hours with the Maggies got me a very good result, but not as seamless a match as I quickly got with the Ohms). The irony here is that the Ohm/Velo crossed at 80hz feels better integrated than the stand alone Ohm - which is essentially a full range single driver system with a supertweeter.
I'd also add that, in black, the speaker can fairly be describes as "unattractive". OTOH, it's small.
There are 2 things going on here. Great performance from well integrated subs and great performance from the Ohm 100s. As a stand alone, the Ohm is a viable alternative to my usual recommended extended bandwidth speakers at $2kish - Vandy 2s, Em-Tech LFTs, and possibly Maggie 1.x QRs. In combo with the subs of your choice, it's a lot more than that.
Bottom line:
Velo SMS-1 analyzer, x-over PEq $ 600
2 Velo SPLR 8 $1200
Ohm 100 $1700
Total $3500
Note: It has since come to my attention that the SVS 16" cylinrical subs will handily outperform the Velo SPLRs (much lower distortion at high SPLs) and are $150 less per pair. These are much larger cabinets, however. Ohm also makes a matching sub with an even larger footprint and that might merit consideration, as well.
The reason I include this note is that the performance I'm getting from 25hz to the 15ish khz that is the upper limit of my hearing is pretty damn amazing. I have found that I tend to listen a little louder with this set-up which helps restore a sense of dramatic dynamics. Other than that, it's really hard to find much meaningful criticism of this system. At the price point, it's truly amazing. Depending on personal priorities and listening habits (i.e. preferred spls), it wouldn't surprise me if some folks liked this set-up as much as any system at any price.
I'm not saying it's perfect - only that in the respects that are most important to me, it's terrific. I've never heard seamless, neutral performance with this type of bass extention in my room before, despite owning 2 other systems that cost several times the price. Obviously, I can't definitively rule out all other speaker system designs, but I wonder whether any speaker without a powered sub can provide this kind of performance in the deep bass.
Further, it's entirely possible that a wiser choice of subs might yield even further improvement (although that might only be apparent at spls I won't ever approach).
If ultimate transparency, macro-dynamics at modest spls, and front to back imaging are your priorities, you might well do better with a different speaker system. If you can nudge the volume up a bit, don't obsess about the "is this cd or sacd I'm listening to?" question, and don't miss the forward imaging provided by some other systems - the Ohm/Sub combo may well be unbeatable.
Marty |
Upon reflection, one change to my post:
I said "There are 2 things going on here", meaning the subs and Ohms.
Actually there are 3 things going on here. Great performance from the subs, great performance from the Ohms, and great integration of the two - a function of both of the above and the Velodyne SMS-1.
Marty |
Para,
My space is app. 14'X24" with a cathedral ceiling and an open rear wall (no wall, just a railing behind the listener), a much larger volume than Map's. Despite this, the 100s produce very good, remarkably extended bass - stand alone. IMHO, the overall performance of the speaker - in my space - improved dramatically with the subs. Measured bass response via the analyzer in the SMS-1 went from very good, if just slightly raggedy here and there, below 100hz and dropping sharply at +/- 33hz, to just plain flat to 25hz. Look, I'll be the first to admit that this measurement isn't the "be all and end all" of bass performance, but in my case it reflected what I was hearing.
Incidentally, for Para's stated desire; priority on bass without a sub - I'd also check out the Vandy 2 and the LFT. On his other note about liking the flexibility of later adding a sub, I'd stick with the Ohms. It may be the omni radiating pattern, but these thing mate with a sub like nothing else I've ever heard. Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed with the 100s stand alone, it's just that I'm way more impressed when they're coupled with subs - at least in a largish room like mine.
Just my observation, YMMV.
Marty |
Biz,
Good to hear of your success with a similar set-up. My Velodyne SMS provides 6db/octave of low cut for the mains at 80hz - so I'm filtering the 100s in a similar fashion to the way Ohm filters the Sat 100 model for use with Ohm's own subs. This was the set-up John at Ohm had recommended for a room of my size, but I couldn't accomodate the large footprint of the Ohm subs. Therefore, I subbed in the SPLR subs and off I went!
Marty
BTW - The SMS-1 provides room analysis, PEq, and a very versatile high cut x-over for the subs. The thing is amazing! |
I drive my 100s with ss TAD mono amps, but I also own a pair of Prima Luna tube mono amps. I'll roll some KT88s into the PL and report back in a few days. All in the interest of science!
Marty
BTW, since I'm using subs, the Ohms should be a somewhat easier load and the chances of success may be better. |
Wine,
You're not the first to observe that imaging is more characteristic of good stereo than of most live performance. However, it does contribute to the illusion of live performers in the listening room. Strangely, I find that the Ohms do an excellent job of preserving this illusion - images have real "body" and hang in space. The only shortfall I've found is the lack of dramatic front to back differentiation that you find in many of the better minimonitors, for example.
It's a bit strange that lots of folks find the Ohm imaging "diffuse", while I don't at all. I definitely wouldn't ascribe this to omnis in general, because the MBLs are probably the best imaging speakers I've ever heard.
Marty
Ironically, many people have described the Ohms as very dynamic, while I find this to be their sole significant shortcoming. Maybe it's just me. |
Map,
I'm using subs - so it's hard for me to say much about the low end. John S told me that the 100s don't fall below 4.8 ohms, so a tube amp might work well. However, quick impressions reveal that the tonal balance of the speaker shifts noticeably with my Prima Lunas (4 ohm taps). I'm going to try the 8 ohm taps next to see what happens. Stay tuned..
Marty
PS If I get the energy, I'll rewire for full range operation with my ARC VT-130SE amp. The ARC is balanced in only, so rewiring is a pain in the ass, so that's a fairly big "if". |
Map,
I've used 150 wpc Bel Canto and 200+ wpc TAD ss amps with similar results from my Ohm 100s - in a large room with dual Velodyne subs. To address your curiosity from a previous post, I'm now experimenting with KT88 (and KT66) based Prima Luna amps. So far it's plusses and (more) minuses, but I'll post further on this tube experiment when I've got 'em dialed in a little better.
Marty |
Map,
The Bel Canto amp is class D. You may be right about break-in or amp matching as the tube experiment is proving most interesting re: dynamics. Could be the switch to tubes or could be time passing, but dynamics are improving - at this point, I suspect it's the tubes. Before too long I'ff switch back to the TAD ss monos to get a better handle on causality. When I do feel confident about the results I'll start a new thread on Ohm & Tubes.
Marty
PS - Regarding imaging, your point about the MBLs going omni full range vs. the Ohm's crossing to directional high frequency drivers (aimed off axis) is well taken. However, the Ohm's directional tweeter only crosses in over 8K (it's really more a supertweeter in that regard) so I'm not sure that vocal images are really being affected significantly. In any event, imaging via my 100s has been great in every respect other than front to back layering. |
Rebbi,
You really should get hold of Lindsey Buckingham's cd "Under The Skin" and play the track called "Show You How" (then play the rest of the cd, it's terrific). The Ohms create a sense of space filled by individual voices that will undoubtedly get you "gleeful"!
Marty
Disclaimer: This isn't audiophile style reproduction (it's clearly processed sound), but it will make you smile. |
Rebbi,
A lot depends on your preferred listening level, the room size, the specific amp in question, full range vs subs, etc, etc, etc.
FWIW - PrimaLuna 7 monos with KT66 output tubes make about 60ish wpc. With subs, this is more than adequate to produce pretty loud music in my largish room. Full range, I'd want more. I use SS amps producing 200wpc and, although they are louder, the speakers sound more dynamic with tubes (I think. I haven't switched back to the ss amps to verify this observation. It may also be partly/mostly break- in.)
Bottom line, more power allows more flexibility, but the speakers are definitely amp sensitive, so take any generalization with a healthy dose of salt. For full range operation I'd try to stay north of 100 wpc tubed and double that for ss. Just a very rough rule of thumb.
Marty |
Rebbi,
If the S3 in your question is sat3, the 60ish tubed watts should work. If you're talking series 3 full range, see the above.
Marty |
Without listening to your system in your room, a "go/no call" call on a subwoofer is tough. If you DO decide to go with a sub, however, I'll offer a piece of advice.
The Velodyne SMS-1 sub controller ($500-600 on line) offers room analysis, PEq, and a flexible x-over which will allow smooth integration (and low end response optimization) of the sub of your choice. IMHO, it's a great tool and - for most set-ups - probably allows a midling sub to outperform a higher quality sub via superior integration. (This is obviously a generalization, but I suspect that, more often than not, this is the case.) I use mine to cross Ohm 100s to a pair of Velodyne SPL 800R subs (which are not great performers by hi-end standards). I am sufficiently happy with the results that I haven't upgraded the SPLRs, even though superior SVS subs are available at modest cost and I have other uses (home theater) for the SPLRs.
BTW, you can always upgrade your subs after the addition of the SMS. Other than the Velodyne DD series (which includes an SMS like function), I know of no sub which offers this type of integration tool.
Just my take.
Marty |
Rebbi,
I just assumed that the quintuply redundant nested packaging of Ohm speakers was intended to ensure that no-one would ever return them. I can tell you that once I finally managed to get mine out of the boxes, there was no way they were going back in!
OTOH, I'm sure the UPS argument holds plenty of water. If crates could tell stories...! In fact the guys at Ohm deserve some credit here: They do manage security without resorting to undue expense (i.e. the aluminum flight cases my Verity P/Es ship in).
Marty |
You guys may also want to check out Maceo Parker's "Roots and Grooves", a (mostly) live (sort of) tribute to Ray Charles. The 17+ minute work-out "Pass The Peas" is an ear opener on the Ohm 100s. |
BTW, Ellington fans should cue up "Far East Suite" on the Ohms. Not only my personal favorite composition of the last century, but a great demo disc for the Ohms unique soundstaging capabilities.
Marty |
Map,
Ellington's extended compositions/theme albums are my favorites. While this is not "Take The A Train", I find the music readily accessible despite the more involved structures. My personal 3 faves are:
Far East Suite
Intimacy of The Blues
Queen's Suite
The last 2 I own only on LPs (Pablo) which sound great, but I can't comment on the CD versions, sonically.
All 3 are definitely worth having.
Marty |
We're all wishing you and your dad well.
Marty |
I've found that my 100s require higher SPLs to "open up" dynamically and, consequently, I listen louder these days. This has made me wonder about Sat 5s which are designed for higher output. Map, since you have both 100s and 5s, I'd love to get your take on their behavior at higher volumes. I know sat 5s w/subs aren't 5s, but your experience is probably as close as I'm gonna find.
Thanks in advance,
Marty
PS Room is 3 walls w only an open railing behind the listener. The floorplan is app. 23' X 14 ft. The 100s are app 3 1/2 feet from the long wall behind them and 10' from my seat. The ceiling in app 18' high and the open space behind the listening position is pretty large. |
Map,
"Far East Suite" is my #1A favorite Ellington record, but "Queen's Suite" and "Intimacy of the Blues" would be choices 1B and 1C, respectively. The only caveat is that I own these only on LP and haven't heard the cd versions. Both LPs (Pablo) sound very, very good, if maybe not quite up to Far East Suite quality.
As a side note, some critics have dumped on "Queen's Suite" as "minor" Ellington - but I disagree. Can't guarantee how you'll feel.
Marty
PS Glad you enjoy Far East Suite. Overall, my single favorite recording (out of many thousand) that I own. |
IME, the Ohm 100s are a bit more neutral than the Vandy 2 series, which -IMHO- has slighly elevated upper bass and slightly rolled presence/treble. Each of those two qualities is subtle, but taken together the combo of these two characteristics make the Vandy 2s seem just a touch "warm" to me. Tonally, the Model 5 or the Quatro is closer to the Ohm - just flat neutral. Of course, those Vandys have powered bass modules, so there's some "wiggle room" in their tonal balance - but when set up for max neutrality, they're pretty spot on, IMHO. As are the Ohms.
Imaging is a different story. The Ohms bring a certain "weight" to the images that I've heard only from omni designs. This is a really significant difference and separates the Ohms from most other speakers that I've heard. In other respects the Ohms and Vandy 2s image similarly, though I feel that the Ohms may go a bit wider in projecting believable sound sources outside the speaker than I've ever heard from any Vandy speaker. There are enough variables here - I've heard a half a dozen Vandy 2 set ups over the years, but never in the same room/system as the Ohms - that YMMV.
I'd mostly agree with Mapman, but would beg to differ in the comparison to MBL, as the 101s can create the illusion of 3d space extending into your lap in a way that is, IME, virtually unique (and certainly beyond what I get from my 100s in this regard). Actually, to be more accurate, I've heard some minimonitors that can also create the illusion of images way forward in space. The ProAc Tablettes come to mind. Either way, the Ohms are more limited in this regard than the best imagers I've heard.
Hope this helps.
Marty |
Rebbi
"Show You How" and "It Was You" are the key tracks on "Under The Skin". Louder is better.
Marty |
Rebbi,
I'm not sure of your taste in music, but I have another recommendation for you if it runs to "stripped down" rock music - think Neil Young style. The cd is called "With These Hands" by Alejandro Escovedo. He's something of a cult figure because:
A) His dad is the well known jazz artist Pete Escovedo
B) He's done the noisy/garage thing with Buick McKane
C) He's done the Cow Punk thing with Rank n File
D) He's had hepatitis C and an acoompanying benefit CD with cult/rock celeb participation.
and
E) His music can be great.
Unfortunately, the productions are frequently too dense for my taste and the sound can get muddy. However, this particular CD "unravels" nicely on the Ohms and sounds better (to my ear) than on conventional loudspeakers. It's no world beater, but a good demo of where the omni approach works better.
Marty
PS Listen specifically to the percussion on the title track to see what I mean. I will caution that the sound on this one may polarize opinion and disappoint some, but the good news for those folks is that the music's still great - if you like this sort of thing. |
Para,
I happened to buy a pair of CRMs the same week I bought my Ohm 100s - as well as a pair of Maggie SMGs. Ohms are omni, Maggies are dipolar, Sunfires are bipolar. I was trying to figure out whether a different (vs the front-firing speakers I had been using at that time) dispersion pattern might work better in my difficult new listening room.
IMHO, the Sunfires lagged the other two by a long, long measure. Could be the speaker, or the room or simply personal preference. But I'd take the Ohms over the CRMs even if I kept my head in a vice when listening.
Marty
BTW the CRMs are doing admirable duty (along with a small subwoofer) as external speakers on the digital piano in my living room. |
Mail,
You can also adjust the treble by adjusting the "toe-in" (I assume the MWTs are similar to my 100s in this respect). Be sure to experiment a bit before settling on final placement/orientation.
Congrats on the new additions.
Marty |
Mail,
I think you're about to try out an apple and an orange - and maybe a banana, to boot. It will be interesting to hear from you on this one.
Marty |
Actually, Rebbi's observation is consistent with one I find telling re: Ohms. Music featuring multiple percussionists just sounds different on these speakers. The track which really struck me was "With These Hands" by Alejandro Escovedo. Again, a wall of maraccas, congas, tom toms, etc. Don't know that it's "real" (strictly speaking), but it is convincing - and fun.
Marty
PS - Para, IIRC, Ohm's placement recommendation defines a square, so if you're sitting 6' away from the point midway between the speakers, you should expect the speakers to be app 6' from each other. |
Rebbi,
I was wondering what John demos with at shows (assuming that Ohm does shows). Any idea? I'd love to program one of those demos.
As to purist vs studio tracks. The Lindsey Buckingham tracks that wow me (you can add "Come" -with its monster guitar solo - from Fleetwood Mac's "Say You Will" to that list) are definitely in your second group, while the jazz that occupies most of my listening time generally falls into the first group.
For something else in that "purist" camp, you might want to try the new Allen Toussaint cd "The Bright Mississippi". A beautifully recorded set of N'awlins standards re-worked in a brooding, spare, but subtly more rythmic fashon than the originals. Woodwinds, horns, piano and a WHOPPIN' big bass drum.
Marty |
Zk,
Sort of a shame - I suspect that many more people would have their eyes (ears?) opened by the speakers, given the chance.
Marty |
Joe,
Underwood HiiFi is in your zip code. They do a fairly brisk trade in used goods, so you might give 'em a ring. They also handle Bel Canto - an integrated I (briefly) used successfully with my 100s. If they have/can get a used one, it would likely be <$1K, though how much "<", I couldn't say.
Good Luck,
Marty
PS My comment re: 45wpc likely being a problem. It's always possible that a 45wpc has a wildly overspeced power supply and CAN supply adequate current. However, IME, that's pretty unlikely, which is why I said 45WPC is "almost" certainly a problem. Just clarifying. |
Joe,
I don't know the W2s, but I believe that the paino timbre issue you observed isn't common to the entire Ohm line. Along with its unusual imaging capabilities, this was specifically the quality that most impressed me about my Ohm 100s. IMHO, the ability to allow a listener to easily identify piano type is usually a good indication of a speaker's timbral capability and, in this regard, I find the 100s awfully good. The "bell-like" tone of an upright is reproduced by my 100s in a way that sounds immediately real to me. With some other speakers I've heard (even some that - I'd say - sound "beautiful") this hasn't always been the case. Just MHO.
Marty |
Map,
I haven't managed to hear Magico yet. David Weinhart Design in Bel Air (not too far from me) carries them and I've thought about dropping in for a listen. Truth is, I don't usually do that unless there's at least a passing chance that I'll buy something. Right now, I'm REALLY happy with the Ohm + Subs, so I've been reluctant to bother Dave. One day, I'll stop by to check out something he sells (maybe not speakers) and ask for a listen. 'Til then, I'll remain curious, too.
Marty |
Joe,
45 wpc is almost certainly a problem with these speakers. In my (14'X23' - with high ceiling, open rear wall) room, the 122 wpc ARC VT130SE is operating at the margin. I'd be very happy with another 6db of elbowroom if I had it, so a 500wpc amp would be more my cup of tea. (Of course - YMMV) This might not address your issues re: timbre, but it will definitely allow more a dynamic presentation.
Good Luck,
Marty |
Crazy Eddie was the discounter. Tech Hi-Fi was the "specialty store". "Harvey Electronics" was the boutiquey store and Lyric was the "vault" that wouldn't let just anyone in to hear the Maggie Tympani.
As I recall.
Marty |
I bought 100s on the basis of an Ohm thread - I think it was this one. I'll pat myself on the back for buying and also thank the experienced members of the Ohm community for the good advice in recommending them to me.
Marty |
Sean,
I use Ohm 100s with subs and find that they are in that group of speakers which doesn't really sing til you turn 'em up a fair bit. Just MHO. BTW, I love the speakers. As trade-offs go, I'll take this one.
Marty |
I use the standard, full range Ohm 100s with subs (now Rythmiks, formerly Velodynes). I use an NHT x-2 to roll off the bass in the 100s and a Velodyne SMS-1 to roll off (and EQ)the subs. Integration is - to my ear - just about perfect. Personally, I'd go with full range Ohms. Just MHO.
Marty |
Bond,
Congrats on the new pre. Only one word of warning: Adults have been known to pee in the pool, too.
Marty
PS Not sure what that means, but I liked your metaphor. |
FWIW,
In a more apples to apples vein, I use Silverline Sonatinas (great looking, original pre-Avalon lawsuit cabinetry) in my family room. IIRC, they were priced similarly to my Ohm 100s - presumably they're more expensive today. I like the Sonatinas, but it's easy an easy call for the Ohms, running away.
Marty |
A third vote for toe in. When I originally set up the speakers, I had the inadvertantly angled the tweeters outward instead of inward. For a few uncomfortable moments, I had that bad sinking feeling. About 30 seconds later, I figured out the mistake. This is fundamental to the balance of the speaker, even small shifts can be quite audible. It makes all the difference in the world.
Marty |
Rebbi,
I think that you can buy a new Bel Canto integrated amp in your price range. I've used this combo (Bel Canto s300 w/Ohm 100 S3)and it works very well. The S-300 offers a pre-out (if you ever want to add a sub), but not a power in (if you want to actively roll off your mains when you add that sub). Kind of a "glass half full".
The good news is that you might even be able to go with Bel Canto separates at/near your price point if you buy used. Check the A'gon listings. This set-up offers full (bi-amping or switching to a different power amp if you so choose in the future) flexibility going forward, and a stacked pair of small, matching Bel Canto chassis echos the uncluttered look of an integrated.
Good Luck,
Marty |
Rebbi,
While a good SS preamp will probably sound quite good with the Bel Canto, I agree that tubes in your line stage might lend some welcome "body" to the overall Ohm/Bel Canto picture. If you can find an old Dynaco preamp (try for a PAS-4) that's not too noisy, it could be a cost effective solution for you. They sound very good, trade at reasonable prices (I've seen them offered below $500), and the simple circuitry/construction bodes well for the long haul.
Good Luck |
Rebbi,
Don't sweat it. There are lots of tube pre-amps with lowish OI. If you're nervous, compile a list and shop from it. (You might want to start with Quicksilver, they will drive anything.) Tube pre-amps with buffered output stages are sometimes designed with just this issue in mind, you can always look there. Finally, even though tubes may well be appealling, they are hardly a requirement. Why dismiss a good ss preamp? The Bel Canto instantly comes to mind!
Marty
Marty |
I don't know the 5000s as I own the 100/S3. I think this is a a GREAT design,but my one issue with this speaker is that macro-dynamics aren't great - you need higher SPLs to get satisfying dynamic impact (vis a vis my other preferred high end designs). IMHO, if you like to listen at lowish SPLs, it's entirely possible that Ohms just won't be your cup of tea. I do, however, have a simple solution - just listen louder!
Marty |
