Reviews with all double blind testing?


In the July, 2005 issue of Stereophile, John Atkinson discusses his debate with Arnold Krueger, who Atkinson suggest fundamentally wants only double blind testing of all products in the name of science. Atkinson goes on to discuss his early advocacy of such methodology and his realization that the conclusion that all amps sound the same, as the result of such testing, proved incorrect in the long run. Atkinson’s double blind test involved listening to three amps, so it apparently was not the typical different or the same comparison advocated by those advocating blind testing.

I have been party to three blind testings and several “shootouts,” which were not blind tests and thus resulted in each component having advocates as everyone knew which was playing. None of these ever resulted in a consensus. Two of the three db tests were same or different comparisons. Neither of these resulted in a conclusion that people could consistently hear a difference. One was a comparison of about six preamps. Here there was a substantial consensus that the Bozak preamp surpassed more expensive preamps with many designers of those preamps involved in the listening. In both cases there were individuals that were at odds with the overall conclusion, and in no case were those involved a random sample. In all cases there were no more than 25 people involved.

I have never heard of an instance where “same versus different” methodology ever concluded that there was a difference, but apparently comparisons of multiple amps and preamps, etc. can result in one being generally preferred. I suspect, however, that those advocating db, mean only “same versus different” methodology. Do the advocates of db really expect that the outcome will always be that people can hear no difference? If so, is it the conclusion that underlies their advocacy rather than the supposedly scientific basis for db? Some advocates claim that were there a db test that found people capable of hearing a difference that they would no longer be critical, but is this sincere?

Atkinson puts it in terms of the double blind test advocates want to be right rather than happy, while their opponents would rather be happy than right.

Tests of statistical significance also get involved here as some people can hear a difference, but if they are insufficient in number to achieve statistical significance, then proponents say we must accept the null hypothesis that there is no audible difference. This is all invalid as the samples are never random samples and seldom, if ever, of a substantial size. Since the tests only apply to random samples and statistical significance is greatly enhanced with large samples, nothing in the typical db test works to yield the result that people can hear a difference. This would suggest that the conclusion and not the methodology or a commitment to “science” is the real purpose.

Without db testing, the advocates suggest those who hear a difference are deluding themselves, the placebo effect. But were we to use db but other than the same/different technique and people consistently choose the same component, would we not conclude that they are not delusional? This would test another hypothesis that some can hear better.

I am probably like most subjectivists, as I really do not care what the outcomes of db testing might be. I buy components that I can afford and that satisfy my ears as realistic. Certainly some products satisfy the ears of more people, and sometimes these are not the positively reviewed or heavily advertised products. Again it strikes me, at least, that this should not happen in the world that the objectivists see. They see the world as full of greedy charlatans who use advertising to sell expensive items which are no better than much cheaper ones.

Since my occupation is as a professor and scientist, some among the advocates of double blind might question my commitment to science. My experience with same/different double blind experiments suggest to me a flawed methodology. A double blind multiple component design, especially with a hypothesis that some people are better able to hear a difference, would be more pleasing to me, but even here, I do not think anyone would buy on the basis of such experiments.

To use Atkinson’s phrase, I am generally happy and don’t care if the objectivists think I am right. I suspect they have to have all of us say they are right before they can be happy. Well tough luck, guys. I cannot imagine anything more boring than consistent findings of no difference among wires and components, when I know that to be untrue. Oh, and I have ordered additional Intelligent Chips. My, I am a delusional fool!
tbg

Showing 5 responses by tvad

Double blind tests, statistcal analysis...it all seems ridiculous and out of place in this hobby. Might as well do double blind tests and statistical analysis to determine what wine, art, automobiles, cheese, homes, or golf clubs to buy.

Don't we all agree that equipment is purposely voiced by the manufacturer...even if the goal of the voicing is to provide the gear with no sonic signature? That all equipment sounds somewhat different individually, and within each system?

Are we really endeavoring to purchase Stepford Gear, void of any personality. Just the facts, Ma'am.

Really?

This discussion leaves me cold, and frankly drains my interest in the hobby.

I want to enjoy music in my home. I don't believe I can reproduce the live event. I don't believe I can reproduce the sound the mixing engineer heard in the recording studio. I don't care about these things.

I care about closing my eyes and getting lost in the notes. I care about tapping my toes to the rhythm.

No equipment purchase based on a double blind test or a statistical analysis is going to provide that, IMO.

Onhwy61, I don't believe one has to obsess over the importance of double blind tests and statistical analysis of equipment to be an audiophile. But, in the interest of not arguing the issue, I'll accept that by your standards I may not be an audiophile. Know what? It doesn't matter.

I enjoy listening to music on my system. I think it sounds pretty darn good. I assembled it by discussing components with other audiophiles, reading reviews (and posts), and by purchasing the pieces and listening for myself as I added, subtracted and tweaked the system into its present form. I based no decision solely on cost. If something lower cost sounded better to me, I kept it. If not, I sold it and kept the more expensive gear. But, I never spent a minute blidfolded (although I spent many minutes with my eyes closed) nor did I spend hours pouring over technical measurements...especially when it came to wire. I simply trusted my ears.

I never ignore specs or measurements of electronics or loudspeakers, but I don't consider specs to be the end-all in determining whether to purchase the gear. Further, I don't consider specs to be the end-all in determining what constitutes "audiophile" gear. I have no doubt that there are plenty of mid-fi components that measure substantially better than my VAC amp, and I'm certain my VAC amp has far worse specs than the uber-spec'd digital amps I've auditioned thus far. But, I enjoy the sound of the VAC more. I've never read a single test measurement for any of the modified CD players I've owned, and I'm reasonably certain none are published (post modification). That hasn't stopped me from accepting that they sound better than their stock cousins.

Listening to music and feeling good (or feeling some emotion) isn't just a high priority, it's what it's ALL about as far as I'm concerned. If that's not criteria for entry into the audiophile club, I'll happily not belong.
Onwhy61, you wrote:
In your 6/13 post you state that you are not interested in fidelity, only whether it makes you feel good.

I believe some of your consternation with my post of 6/13 stems from your misunderstanding of what I wrote. If you carefully re-read the post you will discover that nowhere did I state that I was not interested in fidelity. Rather, I wrote:
I don't believe I can reproduce the live event. I don't believe I can reproduce the sound the mixing engineer heard in the recording studio.

That is the only reference I made to anything remotely having to do with fidelity. I said I don't believe I can reproduce the live event. Indeed, this is what I believe. Starting with the acoustics of my room versus the acoustics of the room in which the music was recorded. Reproducing the live event is a Utopian goal that is ultimately impossible. Therefore, I do not endeavor to do this. However, this statement does not mean I don't care about fidelity. For many of the same reasons involved with the impossibility of reproducing the live event, I also do not believe I can reproduce the sound the recording engineer heard in the studio: equipment, room acoustics, etc. are all different.

Please don't critique my opinions without first understanding my statements. If you're not sure about the point I am attempting to make, please ask me and I will try to explain. Once we understand each other, you're welcome to fire away.

Finally, you wrote:
Just tapping your toes won't get you there.

Again, I am interested in fidelity, but I do not and will not get mired down in discussions of double blind tests, statistics and technical specifications. I can hear differences in my system produced by swapping various elements of that system, and this is sufficient for my purposes.

As I stated in an earlier post, the music is everything to me, and if that priority does not make me an audiophile according to your definition of the word, then so be it.

Gregm, faithful reproduction of the live recorded event has been mentioned in the audiophile press as a goal of an audiophile playback system, and as a subjective measure of a system's fidelity. That's why I brought it up.

I should also add, the argument has included whether or not the goal is to reproduce the sound of the actual live event, or the sound of the recorded live event. I'd say based on some of the carefully/simply engineered recordings made by, say, Chesky, the goal of some recording engineers is the faithful reproduction of the actual live event. Whether it can be done is another debate: one that has been discussed before in these threads.

Although I value fidelity, I don't spend hours carefully dissecting the sound of my system trying to determine if what I'm hearing is the best reproduction of the live event I can achieve. I'd rather spend the time relaxing, tapping my toes, and enjoying the music. It's just a choice I've made.

Good to see we agree.

On one hand, it is somewhat accepted that the perfect component imposes no sonic qualites of it's own on the passing signal, but yet voicing of components is often referred to - particularly in the case of cables.

So, if a component is purposely voiced, then the reproduction cannot be true to the source can it?
It seems to me there is a spectrum of Audiophilia, which at one end lies the "no-coloration/neutral-is-best" goal, and at the other end is found "coloration-for-musicality". Proponents of each goal will argue their method provides the best reproduction of music. Between the extremes is infinite possibility for variation.

I believe the root of many disagreements in the Audiogon threads regarding various components lies in differing goals and methods preferred by those who comment. For example, the Nuforce amplifiers are a topic of some debate, and I am reasonably certain that the members who find these amps revolutionary prefer a sound that differs from that preferred by the members who are less than enthusiastic about the Nuforce amps.

So, the definition of the perfect component will vary from audiophile to audophile, and therefore the reproduction of the recording may not be true to the source, but it may be true to the music according to the preference of the hobbyist, IMO.