Skeptic or just plain hard headed

ieales235 posts12-06-2018 2:21pm

There is a potential issue with “auditioning” cables or anything before the burn in period is complete, assuming that the cable is ever completely burned in. That issue is that the burn in process can sometimes be a non linear one, with up and down swings in performance. Thus, when someone takes a peek prematurely he might be disappointed in the sound. But I digress.

@geoffkait ROTFLMFAO!
Systems change for well known and enumerated phenomena, ignored by the fuse, direction and burn-in proponents. If my system sounds better after recommend N hours of cable burn-in but worse due to other ignored factors after 2N hours of use, then what?

Cable burn in is fraud.

>>>>>You seem mighty sure of yourself. But can you prove it? Some folks are just as positive there was no holocaust. This is probably a case of whatever ieales insists, it’s best to do the opposite.

The main problem with getting a 100% improvement to the sound is being able to translate what you think you’re hearing into percentages. But if you can measure 3 dB higher dynamic range or 3 dB higher SNR at the listening position would that satisfy you? I suspect the reason for most of the nervous Nellies and skeptism is the inability to get oneself up out of the noise floor.

@geoffkait 

i am not trying to make that much of a profound statement. Not yet anyway. Maybe IF and it’s a big if there is a difference that peaks my interest to venture down that path sure. For now let’s just see if there is any difference at all, then we can discuss criteria around how to measure it. I mean after all let’s be honest what sounds good is going to be subjective unless like you said we can agree on certain attributes that can be measured such as amplitude, etc. However whether it “sounds better” will be up to me. No one can qualify that but me in this case on my system. Unless you want to come to GA when I do the test lol. This is why the topic is so controversial. What sounds good to one may not sound go to another. I think I am only going to take this to if there is any difference from burn in on a cable. We will be arguing the subjective stuff forever. 

Im warming up the system now to do the first listening test to see if I can make any conclusions after the first 200 hours. 

Wow!  That's good to know, Doug.  Might have to do the same to the ICs going from my preamp to the Nuforce Ref 9 V3 SE monos.  Doug, does this work with identical length and models from other makers besides Teo?

Bob

200 hour test has begun. The recordings I’m listening to are:

Charles Lloyd and the Marvels featuring Lucinda Williams-vocal on the Blue Note label
Donald Fagen - The Nightfly 45 RPM MoFi edition. Recorded from the original master. 
Cassandra Wilson - Blue Moon Daughter 180 gram audiophile version

i am very familiar with all 3 of these records. 

This is a premature test since the cables are only at 200 hours but I would like to see how they strike me since first hearing my system with them new which was un-remarkable.

 My system has been warmed up and I have played about 3 records which is approximately the same amount of time when I first installed the cables last Sat. Trying to make things as close to when I first installed them as possible. Other than the cold medicine I was taking. Sorry not reproducing that 😁

Obviously it will take me some time to do this so I will report back when I’m done

Pardon me while I try to screw everyone up here with possibly a new idea about break in. If you don't want to be reading the next 400 yrs, skip this post. If you do, pack at least 2 snickers bars, you'll need them.

It's an idea first told to me by a friend of mine more than a year ago now I think and at first I didn't give it all that much credence, but lately it has been rattling around in my head and it has me wondering.

This friend has audiophile experience, is an ee, is a building biologist and has a good deal of experience with power grids, grounding schemes in residential and commercial buildings, here and in other countries as well.

Let me start by saying that for this discussion, we could think of the entire home's electrical system as one big circuit and that it could be compared to a Christmas tree in your living room (if you're not Christian, then sorry, I could not come up with a better analogy). The tree is the home's circuit, the branches are all the breaker circuits and the ornaments are everything that is plugged into the circuit: appliances, lights, clock radio, HVAC, TV, computer, each of your audio components.

Normally a home's electrical system is designed (engineered) to be used in a nominal manner and, even for demanding AV purposes (demanding in terms of sound quality, not in really terms of power demand per se, which might be a separate issue if very high power draw is a concern). But, that nominal use pattern can be counted on to deliver the kind of power that will allow even the best of systems to scale the heights in audio performance terms indeed. Assuming, for the moment, that we're listening at a time of year in which our utility co. is stable and not being stressed by excess demand, environmental conditions or whatnot.

We already know that whenever a large appliance starts up, there is an instantaneous voltage drop at the panel as the home's circuit reacts to the instantaneous increase in power demand. We know this is not exactly good for an AV system. But, soon as the voltage fluctuation passes, then it's ok again, right?? Well, technically, no. Whenever there is a sudden change in voltage in a circuit, there is a period of recovery that follows...until the electrical eventually regains its electrical homeostasis. The weird thing here is that, depending on how strong the voltage differential is, this period can take up to 3 or 4 **weeks** to fully regain homeostasis. Homeostasis here is a period of continual, steady-state, **uninterrupted** consumption (no switching on/off, no cycling, no dynamic consumption) of power that within each circuit branch of the home amounts to roughly 80-85% of each breaker's power rating. At 100%, the breaker trips, so we must scale it back a bit as a safety margin...all of which is part of ee design for nominal operation. Substantially less than that, like well under 25%, and the light load demand can invite voltage instability on that circuit over time if the circuit never sees any increase over time. Let me say that our normal routines of switching on more appliances during the day and turning some off at night is all anticipated in the overall design and completely falls under nominal use. And let me add one more thing here: when the routine on/off of a large voltage occurs (HAVAC, fridge, washer/dryer), and as the recovery period is set into motion...the disturbance travels out like waves throughout the home's electrical, from the appliance, to the breaker box and, from there, redistributed back out to all the other appliances where it is reflected back to the box and back out again, ad nauseam, losing energy with each pass, until they finally settle out and our theoretical house is back to homeostasis a couple weeks or so later. Electricity moves quickly, but the effects of the waves riding on it within the confines of a home's electrical travel much more slowly. IOW, a real-world's home is, at any given time, the sum total of all the individual on/off cyclings of power consumption for the past few weeks. All of which, under normal circumstances, represents nominal usage and would scarcely ever register, even if we knew exactly what to listen for, on even the most revealing system, normally. No worries there, usually. But all this is one slice of the environment in which our systems operate.

But, there is such a thing as using the homes electrical in a non-nominal manner...or temporarily stressing it out. Let's suppose for a moment that a home owner is an EHS type...i.e. he suffers from sensitivity to electromagnetic radiation (it can make you fatigued). So to fight this, he switches off the main breaker at night for better sleep. This is a Total voltage demand upon start up, when he wakes up in the morning. This might be considered a "shock to the system" for the home's electrical. This would definitely require the maximum recovery period. All his appliances, for the most part, will probably be ok, basically. But, if he had a hifi, it might well be a different story for a while. And he's doing this every day! This in no way could be considered nominal use. A one-time event is one thing (like when you'll be out of town for well more than a week), you can expect a single, month-long recovery period when you return and then you're good to go. But, every day?! For audio, Yikes.

Another point. Hifi gear is unique among most any other item plugged into the wall in terms of our perceived sensitivity, or our glimpse into, less than ideal electrical issues. Even TV or computer seem a bit less affected by this sort of thing, not immune altogether, but there doesn't seem to be anything more transparent, in our daily lives, to this phenomenon than high quality audio.

Yet one more line of thought: every item plugged into the wall vibrates at its own frequency. For audio, it's important to a degree as to what that frequency will be. It has a direct impact on the sound. Ever wonder how companies come up with a house sound? This is how they do it, especially in the bass. They tune the power supply to vibrate at the preferred (lower) frequency. That's why, in the bass anyway, Theta sounds different than Rotel, which sounds different than AR. Sometimes they go out on a limb in order to shake things up and go for a unique bass signature. For Krell fans, their bass sound is sledgehammer, hard-hitting and is something you can't quite get anywhere else. For the detractors, it brings out those hard-driving, backbeat rythms on All your favorites...even "mary had a little lamb". 

But, in fact I'm presenting 2 different issues here: 1) electrical homeostasis and 2) resonant frequency. 

But, I'm wondering if when we try out a new component, if we aren't running into both of these issues, at least partially. A new amp? Not only a new power demand, but a new resonant frequency for the electrical to get used to. I'm thinking now that resonant frequencies may behave similar to power demand in that they may have their own homeostasis cycle in a circuit as well, but I can't confirm this. I believe there is mechanical involvement (physical break in) what with dynamic drivers and all, but I mean I used to think of insulation on a wire as something of a mechanical element in the electrical break-in process of, say, a new cable. But, are we actually hearing more of the effects of the home electrical than of the actual product under evaluation and are we then perceiving that as the "break in" of the particular product? That's what my friend was telling me was happening. 

But, it would mean that proper A/B testing can never be reliably done (double blind or otherwise) (I never fool with any of that anyway, I'm of the opinion that the only test that counts is living with a product longterm, actually), but even when a friend casually brings over a new wire or component to just test out in another system for a day, even if that component was fully broken in, in his own system, there might be a new break in period in the different home...however long or short a time compared to the initial break in right out of the box that might be.

@barnettk, I know this just complicates things by making a largely subjective topic even more subjective and I apologize. But I'm thinking the overall concept may be somewhat relevant. 

Sorry to everyone for the stoopid long post.
Regards and carry on,
John

Oh 💩. . Man I can’t wait to tell y’all this. Still got to listen to one more song. Very I tersting 

There simply is no room for new ideas. However, is there a reverse break in CD or something that can return a cable to a less broken in state? I want a re-start. Fresh gear...I want fresh...

@ivan_nosnibor 

Ivan my man that was long 😁. I skimmed through it and get what your saying. I will read it in the morning. It’s time to show the wife a little love  for the rest of the day as I have been playing with this since I got off work. I will read it tho. 

No disrespect but reminds me  of the old saying " a fool and his money are soon parted"

Elizabeth- your statement “Paul McGowan burn in the components ONLY so they don't break for the customer in the first few days. PERIOD.” is incorrect. Burn in and testing of equipment are 2 different things. If you listen to the “ask Paul” link I posted, Paul mentioned he burns in some equipment and torture tests others. You can test equipment on the bench for days to make sure it works which is what Paul PROBABLY means by torture tests. Since Paul was mentioning that the amp needed a lot of burn in hours to sound good, he stated in the link that he burns in that amp. He might torture test the amp first or the burn in might include some tests. Don’t know. I sent in a request to ps audio asking what they did to my new BHK amp before they shipped it to me: torture test it, burned it in, or both.

Got to add one more thing Doug said at Axpona.  I believe he said that ALL components exhibit at least 90% of the sound they will have on first listen.  They will not change perceptibly after that.  If you don't like the sound after you get them (anything including cables and components), you aren't going to like them later either.

I have to say, that has been my experience with all things audio also.  I have not learned to like anything that wasn't good initially after more break in.  However, some things sounded even better after break in.  They didn't change their initial stripes though.

IT IS REALLY NICE to have audio friends that have stuff and don't mind coming over to let you hear the difference in your system BEFORE you buy.  Not always possible, but nice, especially with cables.  Saves lots of angst.

@taiye none taken. How about a fool that refuses to learn remains a fool. 

@dorkwad Bob. I do tend to agree. After burn in if the first 200 hours the cable did IMO show some signs of improvement. Still not enough to top the cable I have currently but indeed It did make a difference. I said early on that I am only looking for if it makes ANY difference. In this case I think it sounds better than it did, but I’m not blown away. I like your characterization of sounding better but still not changing it’s stripes. That is perfectly summing it up for me. 

So now that it did make a difference I want to see if it can get all the way there by the end of what MA says is the maturity state of 400 hours. (Their words not mine). Next Friday will be my next test. 

Just a thought here... I manufacture products aimed at engineers and they're right straight from the box. It doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would make a product that you have to "burn in" before it sounds good. Why wouldn't the manufacturer do that prior to making and/or selling them? If it's set up on a manufacturing line, burn in would be no different than kiln drying wood or heat treating steel.

+ 2.5 on the Cable Cooker.

Serious cooking is mandatory for phono cables, especially those with DIN connectors (not your problem, luckily), because the signal is so minuscule that a phonocable NEVER gets fully burned in if used solely from cart to phonostage.

Be glad to cook yours for free (just the OP).  I have the latest Audiodharma 3.5 Cable Cooker and it's been a godsend. Two-three days should do the job. Return shipping on me (assume you're in the U.S.) Morrows used to be my go-to cables.

The method I’m using to burn it in is I have the cable connected between my little sonos connect and a sound bar playing  a Playlist from my Apple Music library on repeat. So it’s connectedd as a line level input between two devices that are using a higher voltage than the turntable cartridge. This should do the trick. Another 200 hours to go and it will be fully burned in according to the manufacturer. Thanks anyway. 

@ivan_nosnibor - laughable. The wiring in your home goes back to the power company transformer which has an extremely low impedance. If it did not, any perturbation on a neighbors line would manifest itself in your home. Only when a transformer is failing does that happen.

If cable cooking manifests itself by changing the cable and all cables sound different in different system, what is it about cooking that is always positive? If there are changes, then in some systems the changes must be negative.

After last night I am now more interested than ever to see if I can find any other measurable things that I can detect from burning in this cable. Today I am going to take measurements of noise to see if that changes between 200 hours and 400 hours. Should be a simple thing to measure. Not sure how I can measure dynamic range. I considered measuring through put..that should be simple enough. I have spl measurements of when playing the music to compare to after the 400 hours. Is there anyone else that has good ideas around other things I can actually measure with test equipment?

Yeah, the changes can be negative, for a while.  Cables can be overcooked (left on the cooker too long) and sound bad.  I've done it.  You can easily tell by listening, but all you need to do is wait it out.  Doesn't take more than a day..  Long term, I've never had a negative result.

This is one of those sticky subjects where it’s not really that there is no AGREEMENT about cable burn in but really more of a whack a mole game type of subject where you have those WITH experience with cable burn in and those who do not, but who engage in the time honored game of Whack a Mole. And there are also those who might be curious.

The subject of burn in not new and this is not the first rodeo for the more advanced audiophiles on this thread. Not to diminish measurements, which can certainly have their place. Good luck with that. In any case, it’s hard to generalize test results of just about any audio related thing. It’s a tough nut to swallow.

I wrote PS Audio to find out exactly what they do to each piece of equipment before shipping to the new owners. I have had other manufacturers do the same thing. When I buy cables from the manufacturer, they ask me if I want them burned in which I normally do. Here is how PS Audio replied to my question on wether they burn in or test their equipment before shipping:

Thanks for reaching out with a great question.

Most of them only receive a “torture test” so to speak.

There isn’t really any way to “torture test” a DAC, so we test all of the inputs and outputs for about 15 minutes, and then send it on its way.

The amps get tested a little harder, and drive a dummy load for a few hours.

The powerplants get tested the hardest as they will sometimes have a heavy load put on them for around 48 hours.

All of this testing isn’t really enough to qualify as good burn in though.

I have been selling audio for 45 years, one of the things that I have learned in that time is that burning- in a piece of electronic equipment or cable will change it's sonic character. Sometimes that change is small comes times it is large. Bottom line is this, once a piece of equipment or cable is burnt-in doesn't mean you are going to like it. 

Remember also that cables don't always sound the same in every system. I have sold almost  every major brand cable there is and never once have I seen a cable that everyone likes. I tell my customers all time - It is real simple, forget what everybody else says - If it doesn't sound good to you don't buy it !

I just took an online signal frequency hearing test with a decent pair of headphones. The results were shocking. I did the test at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-iCZElJ8m0. I did not hear the lower frequency until about 28 Hz. According to this I can't hear anything above 13.5 or so kHz. I just knew I could hear higher freq than that!, and I felt that I could hear below 25 Hz. So with my 57 year old ears I may not even be able to hear the nuances of the cables burned in or not lmao. Amazing. How well do YOU really think you can hear?? 

@arrowheadrss 

Amen

@geoffkait 

"Not to diminish measurements, which can certainly have their place. Good luck with that."

Agreed. Im just curious to see if the numbers change. should be interesting at least. Not going to try and tie that back to sound quality but I think I'm more curious about what happens to the geometry of the cable, and its sonic quality after its been used. Also I think I am going to drop the term "burn in" from my audiophile vocabulary. Not sure the term actually applies. I think I will adopt the phrase "with use"

Fortunately there isn’t much music below or above what the hearing test showed. Rejoice! Revel in your time! 😃 If you could hear what I’ve heard with my ears.

Speaking for myself, I’m not impressed when people say I’ve got umpty ump years of sales experience and.... or I’ve been in this hobby for umpty ump years and you can believe me when I say.... In fact, I generally don’t read any further after they say it. 😀

Ivan that has to be one of the dumbest posts I ever read. When the AC or stove or clothes dryer kicks on it takes 2 weeks for the house to reach homeostasis? Whose freaking AC or stove or clothes dryer only kicks on 1 time every 2 weeks ?? If what you are saying is correct the house’s electricity is never right. Good lord dude.

IF you have a heavy dose , and I do mean HEAVY,  of classical music all your life your brain can, and will,  let you hear nearly as good as ever .
If you don't it it won't as it is no threat to the stasis of your brain .How do you think conductors in their 90's  who can't hear  5k  in hearing test correct players making mistakes at  far higher levels ?Brain is boss , ears just work for them .
 This may be true in other genre , couldn'd say .

@geoffkait  most of us should stop reading there

Cables can be overcooked

There are many MEASUREABLE phenomena which account for system changes. Why ignore them and ascribe to cooking?

I prefer my cables grilled over a nice base of apple wood coals. Ummm smoky. 

djones51 said...“ I prefer my cables grilled over a nice base of apple wood coals. Ummm smoky.”

I prefer my steelhead/salmon grilled over a nice base of apple wood coals. Ummm smoky....And delicious.

ieales240 posts12-07-2018 1:31pm

Cables can be overcooked

There are many MEASUREABLE phenomena which account for system changes. Why ignore them and ascribe to cooking?

>>>>>OK, Mr. Smarty Pants. Name one. Betcha can’t. Besides, everybody knows you can eliminate other phenomena, whatever they might be, by thorough and careful testing. Hel-loo! If you couldn’t we would never get anywhere.

I've got UMPTY UMP YEARS.. Been UMPTING since 1965..               
Measurable system changes.. KABOOM!! dang that lightning was close... , the power went off. Gee there is NO SOUND. measurable (smarty pants)

Exhibit A

😛

LOL. funny.. I have not heard someone call someone else 'Mr smarty pants" in ages. That is hilarious... I'm easily amused as you can see.

@ieales,

Not sure what you could be referring to. I never talked about the incoming service, nothing ahead of the panel. All is on and within the home’s circuit.

@djones51,

Thanks for your input. I knew my post would screw somebody up, Lol! And yes, you actually have that correct by me - no home is ever in a perfect state of electrical homeostasis, it can’t be in the real world. But, that actually doesn’t matter that much to us as all of that can be, and is, considered nominal and doesn’t normally in itself present too big an obstacle to AV performance per se. To get close to an ideal state, we’d have to like leave the house alone for a month, leave All the lights on, switch all compressors (that cycle on/off) and leave them off (fridge, HVAC, except for fan). And somehow arrange for something to replace the 240v appliances and act as a steady draw on those circuits in their place. Even if we could do all that and we returned a month later, as soon as we flip on the stereo, we’ve introduced a dynamic load, technically enough to break the homeostasis by itself (to a very small degree). Maybe the closest thing I can think of to the theoretical ideal in the real world, might be something like lab grade power. Not that I think that’s an ideal we should shoot for, either, really. But, less than perfect homeostasis?? That’s all day everyday for everybody. Just another day in paradise.

This is all getting kind of silly. You can test for any hypothesis or proposition you want to, whether it’s whether cable burn is audible or whether lifting cables off the floor is audible. Or whether cables are directional. Or whatever. But it helps a whole lot to know what all of the variables are, the variables that affect the sound, even the ones not related to the audio system per se. At a minimum as many variables as you can think of. That way you can at least try to CONTROL the variables whilst you test whatever hypothesis you wish. It’s like the dude in 12 Angry Men yells, but we’ve been through all that already!

Starter kit of variables

Time of day
Day of week
Weather conditions
Temperature/humidity
Solar flares
Traffic conditions

@geoffkait what are you ranting about 😁😁

Apparently nothing you’d be interested in. Nevermind. 😛

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. 

Lol

@geoffkait where do you get some of this stuff 😂

@ivan_nosnibor 

All is on and within the home’s circuit.

The panel is a direct short to the transformer. To have an oscillation period of days [0.0000115Hz] to settle over weeks would require ENORMOUS C. The 0000 cable running to my transformer has an L of about 1.33µH. To attain 1.15µHz would require ~224PF, only here the P is PETA, not pico.

@barnettk,

I happen to think he's not far from wrong on all that, but I hope you carry on anyway. All tolled, it should make for good experience and good debate all around.