I haven't experimented with new small tubes, maybe they have improved, I've only had luck soncially with older tubes, and even among those, pretty selective (the telefunkens seem to be more my cup of tea). I haven't tried any different power tubes in the Lamm ML2 for good reason- it's not really an option. But, interestingly, I've been experimenting with vintage rectifier tubes in my new phono stage, and there are sonic differences among them.
FWIW, I think everything makes a difference in a system, which by definition, is interdependent on each element. |
Polk432, couldn't disagree more. |
Phaelon...yeah...the different tube sets I've tried all sound great and do have their own little characteristics, but the KT120 has such ease to it I think it does do a more transformitive improvement. I've recently spoken to someone at "thetubestore" and got some really interesting opinions on 12ax7s...recommending a new Chinese select over the new Gold Lions to insure "clarity and accuracy" over "warmth". |
Even though I like the Linn Classik it has made me realize that I've been right all along. Speakers are NOT the final answer for producing great sound. Important, but upstream is even more important. |
Just got my (2nd) Linn Classik as a back up for when tubes go out. Good sound and versatile, but no way I'll go back to SS. It just can't compare even though it sounds good to me...just not nearly as good. |
Hi Wolf,
I think what you said was fine, and I agree that different tube sets will change the sound of your amplifier. I was just trying to expand on your post by adding that the right tube swap can actually result in a remarkable, across the board, improvement in your amps performance. |
I tried unsuccessfully to switch back to SS three different times.
Shakey |
I suppose I should be more succinct in my description of tube swapping benefits...I meant it changes the SOUND. I think replacing the 6550s in my amp with KT120s made it snappier...although I'm not sure, but I am sure I'm not interested in it sounding like a solid state amp particularly. It did make me feel better so there's that. |
"There is both good and less-than-good tube gear out there...
"It is really just a function of which sonic trade-offs you can live with..."
Robsker - Those are very valid points, but I think its equally valid to state that the higher the quality of tube gear and tubes that were talking about, the more those trade-offs diminish.
"I enjoy tube swapping as a user friendly tone change vehicle...
Wolf - Tubes can certainly serve that purpose, but higher quality tubes, properly matched with the circuit and each other, can have a much more profound impact than merely altering tones. IMO, thats where the real opportunity is to achieve the speed, dynamics and all those other goodies associated with solid state. |
Relative pathological or hysterical tonal merit opinions notwithstanding, I enjoy tube swapping as a user friendly tone change vehicle to a degree that I can't imagine not being able to do that. I find the tactile and visual aspects of a tube amp (with tubes I can see) so appealing that the only SS amp I could imagine using has to have at least a meter to look at...I seem to have needs. I'm thinking of designing a display case for my extra tubes with little LEDs under each tube so they glow harmlessly. Official name: The Garcia Tube Display and Dust Protector Art Thing. Try doing that with a display of transistors...not so pretty now is it! |
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I will only go back to SS if I want to downgrade in sound or get out of the hobby altogether. I'm getting a Linn Classik for days that I'll only listen to music for 1-2 hours. It'll come in handy if a tube goes out and I have no back up. |
There is both good and less-than-good tube gear out there and there is both good and less-than-good gear out there that is SS. If you compare good vs. good in each camp, the sonic quality will be comparable (though the relative distribution of strengths and weaknesses in imaging, dynamics, richness, fatigue factor, etc... may differ some). One (SS or tube) does not sound inherently better than the other. It is really just a function of which sonic trade-offs you can live with easier given your system/ear/the music you play.
But the tube gear is always more finicky and a greater pain to maintain. And, in the long run with replacement tubes... probably more expensive than comparable sounding SS.
I have been in both camps and am currently all tube. That said, I kind of wish I was back in the SS camp... it is so much more hassle free. |
Winking is just creepy. Don't do it. |
There's only one word to sum up tubes..as Ric Flair would say "weather you like it or don't like it TUBES are the best thing goin' Ta-day!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! remember, his shoes cost more than your house! WOOOOOOOOOOOOO! really, you can like anything you want. It just seems that there are too many things to choose from. I'm just happy I can eat whenever I want. |
It's true, to a degree. There is something so old school laboratory 50's sci-fi
atomic age (and earlier) electronic about tubes. Ever look at the stuff
Jeffrey Jackson
does or those things using ancient radio tubes, or even 211's or..... They all
have a quality that brings back the ghost of radio stations, transmitting
facilities, guys in white lab coats with clip boards (no, not the asylum
attendants).
And, you can change the sound by swapping out tubes, sometimes to a
remarkable degree. I was comparing the sound of different rectifier tubes in
the last week.
And, they glow. And throw off heat.
Maybe Regismc was right after all. We are only in it for
.....
the gear. :)
But, there are a few drawbacks. Big, heavy, throws off heat, not the easiest
thing to work with on a number of speakers. Cost of tubes. Quality of tubes
(or lack thereof). Sources of tubes. Tube oscillation. Tube microphonics.
Tube life. And Tube death. Still love 'em.
Can't live without 'em. Maybe.
I go through the same issues with vinyl. Is this a good pressing?
Is it clean? Is it scratched, is it warped, is my cartridge properly aligned,
what about the VTA, should the cartridge be replaced, oh, the goddamn
airpump for the tone arm, is that mistracking I hear or just another noisy
new pressing?
But I haven't been able to give it up. Yet. |
You know them... You love them... You cannot live without them... wait for it........TUBES! |
I did try picking up some old pressings but they are usually in bad states.. pops and cracklings even with multiple cleans. But once the music begins in gusto, it's usually forgotten like with my old Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good |
Hey, my eye has a mind of it's own... and my other one constantly look's at it with disgust. |
My eye winks when something wanted gets in my view. Female'y speaking, of course. |
I never wink unless something unwanted gets in my eye, but that's more of a blink. Also, at my house on the lake (which doesn't actually exist), we always look at tubes as fun. I think we're just wired for fun around here. I also think car tires are "fun" which may serve to illustrate my threshold of fun.
|
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Doggie, despite what i had heard and read about how bad the lost highway
pressing of shelby lynne was, i bought one standard pressing and one
audiophile pressing (I sorta hate to encourage audiophile pressings, if i can
avoid them, and have been digging through original issues of lot's of stuff,
finding it sounds better sometimes). Anyway, the lost highway 'standard'
pressing is, as many people have said, virtually unlistenable, it is noisy, it
sounds like misstracking, and although I thought this had been brought to
the attention of the label quite a while ago , and thought they 'fixed' it in
later pressings, the standard one i bought through Amazon a week ago - it
was on clear vinyl- was awful. The audiophile pressing is totally fine. So, it
seems like in some cases, you have to pay the premium for new vinyl to
get something that is useable. And despite what people say about lousy
original pressings and better mastering on the new issues, many of the
older original pressings sound great, even if they are 'thin' vinyl and were
pressed off by the tens of thousands when the medium was still a
mainstream commodity.
I also get a kick out of how many times some of these audiophile
warhorses get reissued. Tea for the Tillerman 19? (Like a bad horror
movie). My island pink label which i bought from a homeless guy on the
street for a dollar or two, sounds better than the UHQR (which I bought
new) and every other reissue of that record i have heard.
best, |
Wolf, no malice intended, it is hard to tell from the Internet, because you can't see the smile, the arch of the eyebrow or the wink. |
Although we haven't gone completely solid state, our system at the lake still uses tubes, the main home system has slowly gone all SS . Tubes have the smooth, liquid advantage, but solid state will always be superior in clarity, dynamic swing and definition. I've never looked at tubes as fun, more of a nuisance for folks that just want to listen to music.
I've pondered over which is superior for many years, in the end it doesn't really matter, it would be churlish to think we could live without either.. |
Whart I too have a small vinyl collection. It's a chore double, sometimes triple or quad dipping into the same titles :(
I already have the Shelby Lynne on LP and CD, but couldn't resist the new audiophile pressing on LP and SACD.
I know.. what a sucker :D
For more contemporary music, I recently got Amy Winehouse, Nirvana on LP. Heck I even got Nirvana off HD Tracks.
But I digress.
Anyway, the Ayon CD2S was my first dip into tubes. I shortly upgraded to the Ayon CD5S. Then I went overboard with an Audio Research Reference 5 which was later upgraded to the 5SE. I still use the Ayon as a CDP/Pre on a second system.
The truth is I am not into tubes all the way. I like dynamics and detail, and I found the Ayon + ARC was too off pace for my liking. So I ended up using only one tube gear in the chain (preamp) and have SS CDP (EMM Labs XDS1) and SS power amps (Electrocompaniet Nemos). |
Yeah yeah yeah...doesn't it seem idiotically simplistic to make a judgement call about this particular area of aesthetic esoterica? And does anybody realize what I just wrote made no sense? I WAS joking around but I might have been accidentally correct...or not...tough room...tough room...whew... |
No worries Bill. ;-). It's a case of 'horses 4 courses'. There's more than
one way to skin the 'audio Kat', & I simply referenced my own personal
experience. Audio contains all sorts of 'rabbitt holes' one can disappear
into, 4 any length of time. It's half the fun & certainly a portion of the
education. I don't believe one type of equipment, solid state or tubes,
can claim exclusive ownership of audio 'fun'. I do, in my own home,
listen to more music thru my integrated amps, solid state, tubed, & hybrid,
than when I owned an expensive solid state stack or tubed monos & pre.
It has ALL been fun. Often expensive. Surprisingly educational. As I like
to tell my wife, "guys need hobbies, it keeps us off the streets". |
Doggie- so much current pop is recorded or mastered so badly- I
hate the autotune on the vocals and the compression to get that pumped
up sound just robs the music of any real dynamics. Somebody here turned
me onto Black Dub. On vinyl it's pretty good, like Black Keys, but not as
monotonous and definitely better sounding than their latest- El Camino.
Unfortunately, both copies were warped! (I'm a vinyl only guy, so if you
want to talk about masochism, ...).
:) |
Actually in my case the reverse was true. In my earlier all solid state setup, I had many CDs that I found unlistenable. It was usually more contemporary music that had bad compression or badly mastered. I tried finding better quality pressings/remasters but not everything was available. But once I tried an Ayon CD2S tube CDP, they all became listenable again. And without an overly warm and syrupy sound too. Still with great dynamics and pace but somehow just more listenable.
A friend of mine recently swapped out his CJ GAT preamp and Jadis JA120 special edition for a Karan built preamp and stereo power amp (tweaked by ASI) but I didn't feel he lost out a lot in the swap. I suspect with his fundamentals in place (dedicated power lines, Sound Application SA-X conditioner and ASI power cords), the overall tonality and sound quality was very similar. |
Regismc- not to get into a war, but i think that your comment is unfair. I'll
grant you tubes are a pain, but there is a real sense of music in the right
tube set up, and not all tube equipment is euphonic. As I mentioned earlier
in this thread, although I have been using tube equipment since the early
70's I also have solid state stuff - my main system line stage is actually a ss
audio path with tube power supply- and there is joy to be had in both. So
much is system dependent, and the overall musical result hinges so much
on the careful selection of the components to work as a system, gross
generalizations (all tubes are overly romantic) is not a realistic assessment,
let alone that all users of tubes are into futzing, not music. And, while I am
the first to admit that I am a gearhead, what goes into my main system is in
the service of music- to create an illusion that touches you on a visceral
level. You are more than welcome to visit me in the New York area if you
would like to hear what I'm talking about. And to the extent you were simply
trying to balance out Wolf Garcia's comment to the opposite extreme, he is
in the same 'boat.' :)
Best,
bill hart |
"I've said it before: Tubes are more fun. There, I said it again. Anybody currently using SS amps for anything other than live sound reinforcement is anti-fun. I'm sorry, but it's true, and there's nothing wrong with that so don't feel bad as there are a lot of people in the "anti-fun" boat. Big boat."
Tube guys r 'into' gear, solid state guys r into music. There, I said it....:-)
Been there, done it. Listen to more tunes w/solid state. That said, luv a
nice hybrid integrated.....the music never stops. Don't feel bad as there r
lot of audio fools in the 'anti music' boat. It's a small little dinghy though
cause most learn what's 'more than enough' & learn to curb their 'euphonic'
excesses. |
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When I look at my compliment of fairly expensive tubes and consider the expense of having to replace them someday - hopefully well into the future - I truly envy those who prefer SS (Mezmo, are you nuts: "I want to be a tube person). Maybe I just havent heard the right system but when I listen to SS, I find that Im more impressed by the stereo; and with tubes, Im more impressed with the music. I hope that I find something to change that before re-tubing. |
Singleendedsingle: What ss headamp did you go to? I just purchased an Audeze LCD-2 and am looking for a headamp. Was considering a Woo but might go Burson. Only have enough money for one highend system. Either highend cans and lowend system, or lowend cans and highend system......can't do both. |
I've said it before: Tubes are more fun. There, I said it again. Anybody currently using SS amps for anything other than live sound reinforcement is anti-fun. I'm sorry, but it's true, and there's nothing wrong with that so don't feel bad as there are a lot of people in the "anti-fun" boat. Big boat. |
I kept my audio refinement separates over a Cronus magnum. The audio
refinement gear sounded more tube like to me. I grew up with tubes in my
dad's Pilot receiver. |
I started using tube equipment in the late 60's and with a brief foray into
solid state in the early 70's, have stuck with tubes since around 1973.
And.....drum roll...
I think it really depends on the application.
Right now, I am using pretty high-end tube equipment for phono stage, a
hybrid line stage (solid state audio path/tube power supply) and SET amps-
but these are for horns.
I posted a 'downscaling' without 'downscaling' thread recently with similar
questions in mind, particularly over space, since I'm not sure, even if I keep
a largish system, that I will be able to set it up for a year or so after I move
(heading to Austin from NYC area).
Having said all of that, and having no axe to grind, I know some of the
newer McIntosh stuff(both tube and solid state) is highly regarded, is very
reliable, I don't think it requires the degree of craziness that some tube
equipment demands and you can get it on the used market, knowing you
could resell it easily. There are alot of pricey solid state pieces on the
market too, Darzeel, the ASR Emitter stuff, etc. which are considered top
drawer by people with good ears and deep pockets. (Used the ASR stuff is
not too crazy expensive, not cheap, but you can eliminate the line stage
since in a sense it is like a huge integrated amp and has a battery option
which is way cool)
I bought as a gift for a good friend, a very good solid state basic amp, used
(I think it came from Audio Classics? the McIntosh reseller- and it sounded
very good on his Martin Logans. I can check the model, it cost around 2
grand used. And I know this guy is not somebody who is going to tweak or
fidget, he just wants to turn it on and hear music).
Not shilling for McIntosh by any means (although I did wind up replacing
alot of my home theatre equipment with their stuff (solid state) and it has
worked flawlessly).
Other than that, I am totally into the most whacked out tube stuff you can
find.
:)
And, I think you want to pay attention to what will work well in the entire
chain, both on the speaker end and on your source(s). |
In this hobby for over 25 years now and have gone from:
1. all SS electronics
2. to various SS amp/tube preamp setups
3. to various tube amp/tube preamp setups
4. tube int amp
5. back to various SS integrated amps
6. to a gainclone/SS preamp
and now currently have a tube amp and SS preamp. And I've concluded:
I like tubes the best. Whenever I have a SS setup, I'm never content and want to change but whenever I have a tube setup, I'm always a lot more content and keep the tube setup for a lot longer. I've had a few different tube setups that lasted over 5 years without a change, while a SS setup never seems to last more than a year at most until I'm ready for something different....So tubes definitely rule, at least for me and single ended over PP too...
But its all about system synergy....not many people have commented on the specifics of what speakers are being used with what gear and that could lean one in favor of SS or tube gear depending on the associated equipment. |
Changed my old headphone amp (woo audio/tube) for a solid state, cant go back now. |
Switched from EAR 864/Primaluna Prologue Five to Luxman L-505f. I miss just one thing: Soundstage depth. What I've gained is coherence, precision, less fatigue (yes, less!), simplicity of use. I'm still satisfied with my choice. |
I had the oppertunity to go from tube to ss amp and pre. When I hooked up the ss there was just no comparison. Tubes rule. ML vs Cary was the test. My friend and I swapped out amp and preamp and he wanted to keep my tube equipment after hearing it. I'm not knocking ss, it can sound great, I just prefer tubes, even though it is more work. |
I can not say that I have extensive experience with either. ( parasound, classe, arcam for ss. VTL and CJ for tubes) To my ears I always prefer the sound of tubes. This was evident at a dealer demo as well. A high priced McIntosh SS vs a cary SLI80. The SLI80 blew away the Mc. Don't even get me started about the Nagra 300B integrated with Verity Amadis (Holy sound stage batman!)
I've gone from SS to tubes to SS to tubes. I think I'm going to stay with the tubes for a while. Current system is CJ amp and pre with Thiel 2.3's
and the debate goes on! |
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I've had my share of both and have to say both have there virtue's , but with the sound quality of some of the new solid state gear now available and without the hassle of tubes that is often the way to go . But In the end , when i'm auditioning equipment it will be the sound that will make the decision for me , not the technology . |
Freediver,
If you want predictable expenses, a used Bryston (with what is left on their 20 year warranty) would be worth considering if you can find one you like. |
Inna, I'm not feeling up to having the same old tired ss vs. tube argument today. Perhaps another day, perhaps not. |
Viridian, I understand everything and appreciate it. I do use a pair of subs. Everything is a compromise somehow. I believe it was Bill Lowe of Audioquest who said it first ; "To do less harm". It is wonderful to have such a vast amount of equipment available to us. Thanks for the correspondence ! It has been my pleasure. Mr D. |
When I said what I did about tubes I meant both tube preamp and amp. And if some speakers don't sound particularly good with the best tube electronics then either something is wrong with the bloody speakers or they were specifically designed for SS, for whatever reason. That would distort the perception of the big picture but not change the picture itself. In time this picture may become different but not yet. The same with the source - it's still the tape that rules. |
There are other variables to consider. Some speakers just tend to work better with ss amps. There are ss pre that offer room correction, I'm not aware of any tube pres that offer that. Some ss amps have impedance's that rule out many tube pres. Some amps are very sensitive, which when combined with the high out put of many tube pres will reduce the effective range of volume control. There are other reasons as well. The point is that there are too many things to consider, therefore one can't make such absolute judgements. |
Unsound, would you care to elaborate and give us some examples? Personally, I am not biased one way or another, be it tubes, transistors or something else. But I believe that most people will agree with my statement. |
Mr. D, I have a good friend that has a couple of pairs of LaScalas, and I agree with you completely that the midrange on them is superior to the Cornwalls. Unfortuately - and this is just a subjective preference - when I went shopping for speakers, I could not live with bass that only extends to 50 cycles and I won't use a subwoofer, so really the K-horns or the Cornwalls were the only choices. I don't have available corners in my listening room, so I compromised on the Cornwalls, thinking that down the line I would make them into CornScalas. That day will not be coming however as I transition back to SS for the summer and find some other speakers. We all have different priorities; that's why so many different products are made. |
No, even if " money, space, heat, hassle etc. are no object tubes are still..." not necessarily the best way to go with either preamp or amp. |
So if money, space, heat, hassle etc. are no object tubes are still the best way to go with both preamp and amp, right? |
