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@lewm
In my experience, the positive effects are clear and easily heard.
Come on over....there's plenty of room in the fold.
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@terry9
I’m sure the 1&1/5" spacing is optimal. No doubt. The Vinyl Stack unit that I own and is quite an excellent unit doesn’t allow for this if you use more than two lps. (I happen to most times, clean while I listen, and spacing out two lps on my Vinyl Stack achieves this goal and is more conducive to the listening day in that I can vacuum dry the two previously cleaned lps, in a timely manner in order to go forward to the next two without any (build up) of cleaned lps.
This was a long way in saying, that in spite of my regimen, I’ve tried 4 lps in my 10 liter tank/Vinyl Stack, and I really prefer cleaning two lps at a time, spaced appropriately. I'm taking an extremely long way to say, I agree.
I own an Audio Desk and my Rushton copy is superior in every way even with using plain distilled water.
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Yes, the Rushton thread. I copied exactly, his recommendations. I only have a different pump in my filtering system as his original one is no longer available. On the DIY Audio thread, he recommends another RV pump that I have. I just got all of these parts in house now for the filtering system and am planning on getting it up and running this weekend?
@williewonka
I do a 30 minute cycle with the heat setting @ 45C, with the Vinyl Stack set at 12volts.
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I have no doubt that technically speaking the above post is most likely correct regarding the effectiveness of (spacing). I just go by my ears. As we all know, this hobby is a lot of times based on one's personal, subjective, hearing.
Cheers!
At some point I'll try fluids/cleaners...I'm in no hurry.
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..just not sure how much the "surface tension " aspect matters while the lp is under water, where the actual cleaning takes place?
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@strongarm
I’m not sure what you mean by "broke off some vinyl pieces"? Could you be more specific?
I can only assume by your post that you previously had an earlier version of the AD and now compare that one to the (PRO)? Did they change the khz cycling?
Yes, the "set it and leave " function of the AD is compelling but all of the benefits of a more manual option are more effective and much, much less expensive...and may I say more logical.
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@lwal22
Thanks! Something more to look forward to! As I was hoping for... yummm!
@jollytinker,
You obviously haven’t listened to the options that are readily available to you.?
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@jollytinker
The one's you mentioned in your previous post. |
@whart
Nothing you so elliquently stated is lost on me. I've always appreciated your thoughtful posts and your mission here.
I guess I assume that others will automatically remember all of my past posts regarding my regimen that includes (a pre-steam)...VERY IMPORTANT, to me, at least.
I have no doubt that a cleaning agent of some sort will be a positive improvement.
My posts recently have been focused on my transition from the AD cleaner w/ their fluid to the Rushton DIY w/ just distilled water.
I hope this will come through in a way that will draw others in to the US cleaning method and that it is low cost and better performing and when ready, the owner can try cleaning methods to their own personal way.
Cheers!
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Wow!
This is, while it may be interesting to the scientists among us, IS what I was trying to evade...we..need to draw others in................
This kind of talk just makes for a harder sale!
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@ uberwaltz
Only one deep clean is necessary unless I feel after listening I think I can do better. Again..... I always pre-steam and for me it is an added benefit that I'm willing to take the time to do.
@whart
You are correct. I apologize to @terry9 if I came off as disrespectful.
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BTW & FWIW... the filter housing that Rushton recommended is white. Upon looking on the website he provided, I noticed it is offered in clear which ...being the kind of guy I am, it made sense to me. A dollar or so more but the kicker is they are only sold in cases. I placed and order for a clear one on Amazon. This took around a couple of months... although if interested, they still may have singles now.
All of the parts I ordered for the filtering system are now confirmed working. I’ll be using this coming weekend heavily. I do have several bottles of the AD fluid I will try as well.
@audiom3
One of the reasons I’m now using just plain distilled water after going from my AD cleaner/AD fluid.. to the DIY cleaner w/plain distilled water was to have a better handle on any differences I hear. It’s just the now built in/second nature way I compare things. Looking forward to your results/initial impressions.
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@alf77,
It would be hard to expand on @terry9 eloquent post except that to ask how committed you are to vinyl and if you’re in it for the long haul. If your answer is, I am & yes, the US cleaning method is a no-brainer.
I’ve been exploring my new filtering system today. Everything runs great, no leaks. It is an extremely nice, effective addition to the process. I’ve been focusing on 3 lps I’ve previously cleaned several times for my initial evaluation.
I’ll just mention two now.....Robyn Ludwick "Out of These Blues". This one has been previously cleaned by 3 different methods. I am a huge proponent of pre-steaming for years and always did it prior to using my AD US cleaner.
I just put it through my US cleaner earlier this week w/o the filtering system and plain distilled water. I just listened again with the filtering system and distilled water with the AD cleaner additive.
(Lyle Lovett "Pontiac"...same history of past/previous cleaning. I’ve listened to these two lps twice this week. Immediately upon putting it on today, I noticed a more spacious sense of a bigger studio, much more involving, more lifelike. This was always an excellent recording in terms of SQ.)
This is for the RL lp...Upon listening, I immediately noticed more inner detail, a more relaxed presentation along with a quieter surface noise. This lp had what I previously thought was inherent, unremoveable surface noise. It just became noticeably quieter. While this isn’t a reference recording, (I’d give it around an 8 for sonics) it is much more enjoyable now.
Looking forward at some point to following the previously mentioned DIY fluids and more pure water.
Have fun!
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Welcome aboard @james1969 !
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In case anyone is interested...here is a list of the parts I ended up with for my filtering system:
(1) Bayliite model BYT-7A102 RV water pump from Amazon, rated at 12V, 3A,1GMP
(2) Hotor DC converter, Input 100-240V/50-60Hz, Output 12V DC +/- 1V, Max Amp 10A. ( From what I’ve read, I went with this higher rated output model because from other users’ experience across the board, sometimes these products are mislabeled at a higher output than the actual output). (Amazon)
(3) Roadpro 12V plug, (Amazon) This was not necessary but I thought a conveinience that has since proven to me to be just that. It’s just a simple plug adapter like one would use in their auto to run a 12 V device. One caveat...it comes with a 2Amp fuse, this isn’t enough, I bought a 10Amp fuse. Careful though, as it has to be 6mm x 30mm or it will not work. The benefit is, I use it to disconnect/connect power while I’m cleaning without stressing the two wire connectors. This may be just something I find useful.
(4) The Baylite pump has 3/8" NPT barbs, So in spite of the fact I bought the filter housing with 1/4" barbs, I bought 1/4" to 3/8" adapters (brass) for my fittings.
Then of coarse you use teflon tape on all of your fittings. This all matches the input/output of the pump and makes life easier in that one has to buy just one size of hose.
Enjoy!
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@pryso ,
I can easily answer this for him..
In the context of the previous discussion, there was a reason to post one extreme from another. In the case that @terry9 sited, ...it was just a reminder that even if one buys a sealed lp, there’s no guarantee it will be in Mint condition.The chain lengthens........
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@pryso ,
I think I really got the gist of your post. Your recognition of what I initially thought I perceived is refreshing to me.
So I stand by my my initial reaction.
"Obviously that was not his intent, but that's the way I read it".
Which is it?
I perceived it in the most remarkably unremarkable way.
IE: I think we're OK!
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@phil0618 ,
Yeah, my little pump really has great output.
I’m still "tinkering" as well. What I’m doing now is cycling on the pump between each cleaning for around 1 & 1/2 minutes. When I figure the best way to secure the return hose in a logic/functional way so it will stay in a corner of the tank, I may try to run the pump while cleaning for a couple of minutes. Just a thought, I don’t know if would help or not.
BTW, at this point during my weekend cleaning, before the filtering system, I would have noticed the water becoming cloudy and the cleaned lps having some dust particles on them when removed. So far, this isn't happening at this stage of the weekend.
Still having fun.
@pryso @terry9, (Apologies for my interjection). My passion overrides good sense at times. Terry9, I realize this is the second time I've made an apology to you...you must be worried. haha!
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@phil0618 ,
I already had a thermometer on hand and checked mine over the weekend. My tank temp was 1 degree C over it’s setting. I’m running 45 degrees C which may be on the high side of comfortable for some but I have had no problems.
When I change out water, I’ll heat it up first in a big pot to put less stress on my tank’s heater. Of coarse this only works for that initial newly clean water but every little bit helps I guess.
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@audiom3,
My Vinyl Stack has various settings assigned to various (rpm). I use the 12v setting that is equal to 1 & 1/2 rpm (rotations per minute) for a 30 minute cycle @ 45C.
Again, I do pre-steam.
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@audiom3,
I haven’t noticed any problems at all. In fact I notice the opposite effect, in this sense... the fact that the lp is cleaner, the stylus can retrieve more info and I mostly notice an increase in transparency, inner detail, w/ better defined/more musical bass. I’ve done 30 minutes/45C for almost as long as I’ve had the cleaner. I have done up to 50 minutes (this is the max recommended time for my cleaner) one time for a extremely nasty gift lp that ended up better than before.
I once left a new lp on a 30min./45C cycle and forgot to turn on the Vinyl Stack. I put it through another cycle and played it. I could not hear any hint of damage.
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@iopscrl,
Welcome!
I try and make sure when I drop the Vinyl Stack into place that I eyeball the record grooves and make sure they are slightly under water...IE: equivalent to your adding more water.
Based on @terry9 last post, I'm experimenting with a slower rotation today @ 1 rpm every 2.5 minutes.
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I pulled out Ben Harper's "Both Sides of the Gun", yesterday. It had previously been cleaned with Disc Dr. fluid and a vacuum dry around 10 years ago?
I listened to it like that, then steamed it ( I use Audio Intelligent Down With Dirty Concentrate mixed @ 1.5 Tbs. per 16 oz.) brushed on then steamed off w/ distilled water, then a vacuum/rinse.
It isn't a reference disc but it is I'd say a solid 8. It has enough of every part of the frequency spectrum delivered at high enough level for anyone to hear what is there and what could be there. After hearing it improve somewhat just by steaming, then to the full US bath, it went up one notch to a 9. It's interesting and fun to listen to this happen.
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@boneman73,
Welcome!
When my Us cleaner is finished it’s cycle, I raise the lps out of the bath, let them spin a while, then take them off, pat them dry with a clean micro-fiber cloth, then to the VPI 16.5/distilled water. I have had no issue with spots.
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@terry9,
Your mention of a "high speed vinyl stack spinner" ..could you elaborate? Is this something you put together yourself?
This IS fun isn't it.
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@terry9,
Does "pure tap water" = ROM system?
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@phil0618 ,
Wow! You’ve got the bug...bad dude
This is a good thing. Reminds me of me.
I hope everything (vinyl) works out well for you.
I just put on Mudcrutch "2"..
Happy Listening!
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@terry9,
I was thinking about your multi-stage filtering system/rinsing efforts...
Did you gradually work up to this? If so, could you ascribe a % of improvement, say on something like I'm currently utilizing compared to a more comprehensive approach like you are using? I realize these things are somewhat subjective but I assume you have valid reasons for your way. Thanks.
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@terry9 ,
Thank you so much!
I'm reminded by your responses... of the designer of my phono-preamplifier who is a scientists by training...
There is a common logic behind all of this madness.
Cheers!
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@terry9,
I was somewhat surprised you set a 50% improvement with a triple stage filtering & heroic rinsing. Not to doubt you at all. This gives me more to look forward to.
Ever tried a carbon impregnated filter? Is this a possibility in our application?
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@regafan,
My 3 years plus with my AD machine ( I now look at it as an informative, expensive lesson), was that after pre-steamimg, I did get better results. after going to the DIY machine set-up, it’s clearly better than the AD.
For convenience, which the AD has in spades, for me, the high initial cost and the inability to be able to access the internals, the inability to be able to clean out the cavity properly, the high ongoing cost of ownership and so on makes it hard to recommend.
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@fsonicsmith,
Thanks for the post. Look forward to your findings!
(By the way, "I don’t know who to believe",..I can appreciate that. This is why I spend the effort in several ways to find out for myself...then I report here.) I stand behind what I here. My recommendation for anyone is to try several options for yourself.
Although I really don’t pay much attention to the audio press much any more, I did (kind of ) follow Art Dudley’s move towards the AD cleaner. At first he said he could not afford it, then low and behold he bought one. He is the one writer I have respect for. I only hope he’ll possibly do a DIY US cleaner in the manner in which he did his own plinth for the Thorens. ?
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Sadly..@nkonor, post was removed.
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@nkonor,
I really understand the reason behind the decision..
Best!
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@terry9,
Thanks!
@nolojunko,
Hi. I wouldn't know how to alleviate your concerns on any other level than what I've experienced by listening and reporting that here. Many audiophiles including professional reviewers who've tried it are sold. It's hard to get a more across the board, wide spectrum of people to agree on things but they have in this case.
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@terry9,
I've ordered Versa-Clean and Photoflo. My plan is to use this with distilled water for the time being as my next phase of my progression of US cleaning.
I have two existing RO filtering systems. One I cut off years ago when a leak developed and an identical new unit never installed. I think I'll try to install/fix both and use one with a mineral cartridge for my drinking water and the other just for my US cleaning needs. Thoughts/suggestions?
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@terry9 ,
I’ve been experimenting again... I can certainly understand now, why you describe your rinsing effort as heroic! Let me explain......
I’m still using my AD/distilled water. It’s at close to a complete water change. I received my Versa-Clean. I decided to just put in a small amount to my existing water. I did not measure it but I guess 2oz? When I pulled the lp out to rinse/vacuum on my VPI....major suds coming through the vacuum tube. So, I’m not even at the 20:1 ratio and still having a major amount of rinsing to do.
Mine is a 10 L tank but of coarse it isn't filled to capacity. It takes slightly under 2 gal to fill it to operating capacity.
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@terry9 ,
Why finish with distilled if it’s not as pure as RO or the like?
I was just posting my initial findings, I think it may work???...not sure yet.
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Another way to describe how much of an improvement this has made...
I have, waiting for me around 30 newly purchased lps.
I'm finding myself gravitating towards my older lps to hear them like I've never heard them before.This is on my (free day)!
How's that.........?
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@terry9 ,
After re-reading my last post, I realize it was unnecessary.
I had asked you earlier if you could ascribe the positive benefit of your cleaning methods (filtering/rinsing/fluids) over what I was doing. You said around 50%. I was skeptical. I am no longer. Just using the Versa-Clean in my current water and better rinsing was a revelation. I've cleaned several lps from new to very rough record show finds. The improvement is easy to hear across the board.
About one year ago, I went through my Janis Joplin lps to compare different pressings. I have the MFSL 45rpm "Cheap Thrills". At that time I was very disappointed in it. So much so, I put it in my to sell pile. I re-cleaned it this morning and WOW!, it is a completely different sounding record. Actually, it is of reference quality. I'm not kidding.
Thank you for your posts!
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Is pharmacy distilled a higher standard than Walmart distilled?
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@terry9,
How does distilled water compare to de-ionized water in this realm?
I’ve read on various threads about a measuring device for mold an so on...I ask because if there's an inexpensive device that might be able to help us determine with more accuracy, a water change in out US cleaners?... Do you have any thoughts on this?
Thank you.
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@whart ,
Your help is always a benefit!
Steve
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This discussion, has been most helpful for me.
I only hope others will find it in a similar way.
Thanks so much to terry9!
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@terry9,
I just changed to brand new distilled water. The closest I can measure, I’m using 256 oz. in my tank when it’s filled properly. I put in 2 oz. Versa-Clean, & just slightly over 1 tsp. of Photo-Flo. The first lp I’m cleaning is a brand new Procol Harum "A Salty Dog" MFSL. My settings are..40 minutes / 45 degeees C / RPM = 1 revolution every 7 minutes.. This is a much lower ratio than you suggest...closer to 100:1. I do steam first with the Audio Intelligent down with dirty concentrate. At this ratio, great rinsing is still needed.
I forget,, do you use Photo-Flo in your mixture? For right now, my heroic rinsing is another steam of the lp after a US cleaning. That’s pretty "heroic"!
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@terry9,
Sorry for the delay. In terms of SQ, I cannot tell a difference. I do steam beforehand. I think my heroic pre-clean method needs to be a factor in my posted results here. I believe your "heroic" rinsing is still a big key in SQ after a US clean. I doubled the Versa-Clean after I wrote the post above to my latest water. I have not noticed any SQ differences.
After adding the Photo-Flo, I noticed a completely dry record after lifting it out of the bath and letting it spin for a very short time. I feel trying the additional steaming after the US cleaning is a waist of effort. I get a better SQ result from a warm rinse from my kitchen sink tap water/sprayer , then a rinse of distilled water, then a final distilled water rinse/vacuum on my VPI 16.5, the a De-Stat.
@bdp24 ,
I guess the appropriate discussion for music is elsewhere, but I agree with MF regarding the SQ= around an 8 on the PC lp which is alright.
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@dgarretson ,
Let us know how the tergiclean vs. Versa-Clean works? Please?
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It’s been a while since I looked hear. Glad to see the continuation of this thread!
Here’s my current method. As you all may have noticed, I go in steps so I can evaluate things better.
(1) Use Audio Intelligent (Down With Dirty) mixed at 1&1/2 oz per 16 oz of distilled water...spread onto a lp. Then steam off. Both sides.
(2) The US bath.... Eight oz. of Versa-Clean, 1 & 1/2 tsp. of Photo-flo, to the 2 gallons of distilled water in my 6 quart tank. (40Hz)
(3) 45 minute bath at 45C
(4) Rinse at my sink with the sprayer with hot tap water. Then a final once over with a bottle of distilled water
(5) Vacuum on my 16.5 after the lp is dried manually.
Right now, I don’t think I need a 40:1 tank solution as I do the pre-steam method above. Time will tell.
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BTW, the sonic difference between a 30 minute/45 minute bath is noticeable and welcome in my way of doing things. |
