Upgrading path from Merlin VSM black magic

Happily ran Merlin Black Magic monitors for years with JL subwoofer and lots of Manley gear with proper cabling, Quadraspire stands and massed speaker stands.  Everything I could do and finally went active for the dynamics I sought.  I'm there now.

There are lots of salient pieces here on ATC active speakers and nobody has gone back after the conversion.  Best of luck finding your sound.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-atc-scm-40-a-floorstanders-finally?highlight=atc%2Bscm...

That speaker has efficiency rated in the upper 80s- you do need some power. In practice it seems to be conservatively rated, but there is a reason why Bobby ran more powerful amps - 60 watts or more.

I think you need more powerful  electronics, e.g., Art Audio Jota HC uses 300BXLS tubes and yields 24 WPC SET sound. 

@twoch In regards to mono block BAMs (for RCA based systems - i.e not balanced gear), not a worthwhile upgrade as the design of the BAM is dual mono after the raw batteries/external DC supply (any gain there is likely small given the cost).  Now if you have a (again RCA in/out) Super BAM (more so one that is not up to date), upgrading it to a Master BAM WILL make a worthwhile improvement in sound.

Dual mono BAMs are only a necessity if you want/need fully balanced (XLR in/ou) Master BAMs as all the required boards/parts needed physically will not fit in one BAM enclosure. 

i have the same speakers 
but with one Bam   Do i need to get one more
 for upgrade in sound 
 like Mono block Bams   yes?   is it really worth it  or a  $ 2300  - $ 3 k  DAC   better investment  thank you

jim2,

 Yea, JA Perspectives would load into my room Perfectly. They are actually smaller cabinet than VSM. Not worried about the size... Just a different flavor than the Merlin.

I Took 2 asprins to see if this helps the fever! :-)  We shall see.

"what do you get when a genius works all his life on ONLY 2 speaker models...you get PERFECTION. "

What a nice tribute to Bobby.

Checked out those Joseph speakers... Imagine a VSM with that setup.

I get it. 

Hwy jim2,

Possibility.... Will keep you posted. :-)

Jimbo... your custom room is ~13' x 18' and you're thinking you need a bigger speaker for it?  Are you sure it isn't pollen causing an itch?  In the past, I've lent a friend my Joule VZN-80 amp for a while... he still talks about it.  Could be that you need to trade speakers with your friend for a while and you both ride a different horse.  If you decide to get rid of those old, tired, Merlin Black Magic speakers, be sure to let me know so I can send you my address... 

Obviously if you purchase the ARS you do not need Hattor

Obviously if you buy the ARS you will not need the Hattor 

I'm toying with a purchase of pair  Joseph Audio Perspectives to replace my Merlin Black Magics.
I've heard the speaker at 3 or 4 audio shows and have a friend who has a pair in a moderate sized room 22x15 and is getting great sound. He's driving them with 100 watt EL 34 VTL mono blocks tube amps with great success.
Nice sounding speakers. 

i read this thread with deep interest.  First of all the size of the room does matter with the Merlin VSM get past 16X16 and they get swallowed up.
First thing that has to be done is the BAM must be inserted into the musical stream BEFORE the preamp NOT after.  THE DIFFERENCE IS MASSIVE IN THE BASS DEPT.
2nd thing is go to Lowes and get a pair 12"X12" 1/4" thick steel plate and accurately drill 4 holes to mount directly to the speakers and then 4 holes for the spiked feet into the plate.  Massive difference
Then get yourself some amplification that can do the job 
My favorite is the Quicksilver 6C33C 50 watt TRIODES (hard to find) but second is the ARS SONUM Filharmonia 30 WATT PER CHANNEL
I also love the DH LABS Deity speaker Cable yes expensive but worth every penny and DH Labs Revelation for all your IC's Expensive but worth it.
Get some Charcroft resistors and some Duelund for the back of the speakers RC network
And finally purchase a HATTOR AUDIO active and passive (combo) about 4K but  the best you can buy Arek's top of the line separates preamp as he is making the best attenuators out in the audio kingdom and if your so motivated replace his capacitors with Duelund
All of this combined will make the best sound in the universe.
BUT REMEMBER THERE IS NO CHEAP WAY OUT WITH MERLIN ...QUALITY IN QUALITY OUT PERIOD.  IF YOUR THINKING I'LL SKIMP SOMEWHERE YOUR FOOLING YOURSELF.  As a gentleman said on Audio Review...."what do you get when a genius workds all his life on ONLY 2 speaker models...you get PERFECTION. "

@sstalwar

Glad to hear it sounds like you are making some progress...

A update from some customers on a few things that may interest you (and others here):

One customer just got a JL subs (one of their e-sub models) and is running them from the speaker connections using the Ars Gran Filarmonia amp and Merlin VSM's with BAM (VSM hooked in parallel with the sub, not through it - blending the sub in below 40 to 50Hz). So far he is telling me that the combo is "awesome"

In regards to Devore's. My customer with Gibbon X's and the Ars Sonum Gran Filarmonia (and he also has the smaller Filarmonia too) keeps telling me the combo is of the two is great (and I should be a Devore dealer)..... My point is the Gibbon X's while not as efficient as the Orangutan series, they do well with tubes - probably not low power SET is the best match for them.

I've heard the Organgatan's at RMAF (I was in the Devore room a couple of times during the show - its was quite good).... while very good, the character is different then the VSMs. They struck may as a bit more robust in the mid-bass and a bit sweeter up top. Very good staging and musicality though - probably a great match for OTLs (Atma-Sphere or my personal favorite - Joule-Electra's) not just low power transformer coupled tube amps.

One final note for VSM owners, I have been making some progress on testing some improvements to the (Battery) BAM - focusing on that would (I hope) make some (cost effective) improvements to it. I have a prototype unit burning in right now.

Even though I have not made the move yet as I have been experimenting with subs, I thought I will chime in on couple of things. 
Needless to say integrating subs is real pain but could be rewarding. I am not there yet but inclined to endorse the route.
@twoch, you might want to reduce the distance between the speakers (bring them closer to 6.5 ft and then move them out to maybe 7ft). IMO they sound fuller when placed closer especially in a narrow room. I like mine toed out where they cross behind the head (my room allows decent distance from the side wall).
@signaturesound, I have no experience with devore gibbons but just checked their website. O/96 choice is interesting as their spec'ed Sensitivity: 96dB/W/M would make them ideal for SET amps. 
Wonder if anybody has any experience with these and how they compare to Merlins.
Lastly, we have couple of other good recommendations that I would check.. Egglestonworks Andra III SE and Silverline Bolero Supreme. 
One thing that is top on my mind is to upgrade/modify the BAM.
Also, on side note, vintage Mullard El34 were the best tubes I had rolled when I owned Filarmonia and then Gran Filarmonia.

I have an older pair of Merlin's. I have a BAM with a custom made P/S that replaced my battery BAM. I run a pair of old Dahlquist Subs with the Dahlquist LP-1 crossover driven by an 150 watt Musical Design amp. I run the Merlins full and bring the subs in right at 35hz. This really works well in my system. My next step is to have the Black Magic crossover mod done by Rich from Sig Sound. You could try a pair of subs and see if that does it for you. I would also look up Swarm and see if it that might pic your interest.

Sorry for being off topic again, but I want to point something out for Ars Sonum Filarmonia (and Gran Filarmonia) owners that may see this thread. The designer of the amp (Ricardo Hernandez) does not recommend using KT77's in his amp.This is not a reflection on the KT77 (I know the new production Genalex Gold Lion KT77 is a very nice tube), but in the nature of the design of the Ars Sonum amplifiers. So, if you want to roll output tubes in a Ars Sonum amp, stick to EL34 (or E34L) tubes please.

P.S. I have tried the new JJ EL34II in my Filarmonia SK and found it very nice (fuller/sweeter - more tubey if you will than the E34L). I also have a customer who has a set of the (pricey) Sophia Electric EL34's in a Filarmonia and is very pleased with them.

Cheers
Rich

If you are on the subject of EL34's I can't recommend the Genalex Gold Lion KT-77 highly enough. It's the best EL34 variant I've heard by a large margin and a pretty good value at $45-50 a tube.

Would that be a good price for them?  The customer upgraded to a pair of demo Vivid loudspeakers with a JL sub. 

The Merlins are lovely speakers newer speakers that remind us of them are the Legacy's which have a similar warm tonality and a big soundstage.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Hey guys, we just took in a pair of VSM with an upgraded BAM with 2 inputs, higher quality outrigger feet by Mapleshade and an additonal zobel network 

in black I have the shipping boxes $2500 for everything.

@signaturesound  Rich makes an excellent point in regard to the JJ E34L.

Although I consider them one of the best sounding current production EL34 variants, they definitely lean to the more forward and engaging side.  Their JJ EL34 come in more balanced, warmer, and even-handed.  If someone wanted to back things off a bit, that's a change that will get them moving in that direction.  The much overlooked Shuguang EL34B are also worth a listen.  For someone with a bit more to spend, Shuguang Black Treasure 6CA7-Z and vintage Mullard EL34 offer even better sound, without harshness.

I've had 2 pairs of Merlins, TSM and VSM.  Incredible speakers, and among the best overall.  Along with the Vandersteen 2, I can't think of another speaker that covers as many bases and listeners.  But no product is without weaknesses or suitable to the tastes and environments of all

 If the room is somewhat narrow leaving the VSM/TSM speakers somewhat close to the sidewall, toeing  them out can result in more reflected energy from the side wall which can make the mids sound more pushed (and staging would be hurt too).  So, instead of toeing the speakers out more,  told them in further so that the tweeter axis dresses in front of your face/listing position. 

 In my experience,  the VSM/Ars Sonum amplifiers combo has never sounded bright. But,  every room and system is different so this is certainly possible, though not probable IMO.  I have had customers who wanted a warmer more traditional tube like character  from the Filarmonia, and they have switched from the stock JJ E34L to other current production (new, not NOS) EL34’s and they are happy.

sorry for getting off topic. I certainly understand the VSMs are not the answer for everyone’s systems/needs. 

P.S. I have a customer using Devore Gibbons with the Filarmonia and soon a Gran Fila. Tells me the combo is great. The gent is a former Merlin owner

Cheers
Rich

@twoch  Depending on the room - in many occasions the Merlin default speaker setup will sound bright - reduce toe in of the speakers. Bobby said toe in so the tweeters crossed behind your head, work in some rooms but will sound bright in others.
Try toeing them out, a few degrees at a time.

Hi.  I own the BM merlin
 I find it is bright more so
Then i want them to be
  I was wondering what you were thinking about 
   I have the tube amp bobby sold. 

I have the Merlin VSM for a long time - 7 years, in a smallish room, 11' x 15'. Once moved to a bigger, dedicated room with room treatments (14' x 18') the sound was not full enough, with or without subs (JL Fathom x 2).
The VSM are great sound speakers, but not without limitations, like others. For massive passage in classical music it could sound thin in bigger rooms.
Since then upgraded to the Silverline Bolero Supreme. They can play in bigger scale, bigger impact, but less transparency in the mid-range. But the sound stage expansion and more 3D presentation made it a true upgrade. And lot more bass too, and deeper, however not full range down to 20Hz.
Now upgraded to Egglestonworks Andra III SE (circa 2017). Better than the former two in every way, no drawback yet, besides placement which takes some time to optimize. Very happy.
P.S. Had Watt/Puppy 7s in between, not my cup of tea.

@sstalwar old thread but did you end up getting new speakers? FYI I have the Silverline SR 17 Supreme in house and it is pretty much everything I hoped it would be vs. my Merlin TSM-MXe's. I'll probably listen to the Boleros next which I suspect will be an upgrade in many respects over the VSM (though I haven't heard the Black version), and if the SR 17 is any indication, retaining the traditional Merlin strengths of speed, articulation and musical clarity.

Subscribing to this thread. Longtime TSM owner (my reference since 2000!), always taken care of by Bobby and dreamed of moving up to the VSM. I could have finally afforded the VSM now, and I feel totally lost without him. He is missed.

One speaker I'd consider is the Silverline Bolero Supreme ($15k). Back when I was writing for Bound for Sound, Marty DeWulf told me the Silverline SR17 Supreme was a big step up from my TSM's. Being a big Merlin fan himself, he would not say that lightly. The Bolero Supreme is to the SR17 what the VSM is to the TSM, to some degree. It's efficient and tube-friendly, so might fit the bill for the OP. I'm going to head up to Alan Yun's shop one of these days to hear it. 

I would also add Devore speakers and possibly the new Paradigm Persona speaker line. This is a newer line so not sure if it's compatible with medium powered tube amps but the specs are promising.

@dgarretson and @signaturesound : thank you guys for valuable input on BAM. I will try to upgrade the BAM if I stick with VSMs. 
So here are the options mentioned so far in this thread. These are not necessarily suitable with SET or low power amp but that is a discussion for another day. So the list :
Von Scheikert
Coincident Tech line
Dynaudio
Audio Note AN/E
Charney Audio Concerto
EgglestonWorks Andra

When I imagine a larger sounding version of the VSM speakers I think of the EgglestonWorks Andra. I own the Fontaines which, to me, sound similar to the VSM (without the BAT), and seem to have similar physical makeup. I thought the Fontaines sounded a little richer in comparison. The Andras even more so with terrific bass.  

Dave, you are not the only person who wanted Bobby to make a bigger VSM. Your idea is not a bad one, alas I am not a speaker designer/builder... and the speaker manufacturing business is a very difficult and competitive one (not inexpensive to do either). Right now as well, I have my hands full with running my little retail business end of things, handling Joule-Electra support/repairs/upgrades, Merlin VSM/TSM/BAM support/repairs/upgrades, and also working on getting Ars Sonum integrated amps re-introduced to the American market. All this is taking up much time (and money - spare Esotar tweeters, VSM/TSM woofers, test equipment etc etc).

Something more in my bailiwick (with my EE background) is the BAM - and I have been looking into (its a long term project) some improvements for the BAM that would not be too costly and still work with the current BAMs enclosure, board, etc and make some good sonic improvements.

Cheers,
Rich

Rich, great that you continue to support the Merlin community. As good as the VSM series was/is, I wish that Bobby had carried the model forward with a serious update with slam for larger rooms. One idea would be to add a couple more 6.5" drivers to make a line array. Pretty much the same simple two-way second-order crossover, BBAM, and slim cabinet profile, but with increased output and headroom. Nice if you could explore it...

@dgarretson

I'm sure your mods helped a bunch... the Battery BAM is (obviously) built to a certain price level and to have certain features (like the choice of the external raw  feeder power supply used because of its performance, cost, and ability to work on any world wide line voltage), but it is interesting to see what you can make of it if you want to spend the time and dollars. :-)  

@sstalwar

My customers set-up with the subs is very unique and because of the (huge) room size/acoustics (for ex, the room is easily 3x of yours volume wise) and the subs in use, the positioning of the speakers and subs (even if I had those measurements) would not be of any use to you or anyone else. Most likely, both pairs of preamp outputs are in parallel in your preamp and are both active at the same time.

Berning's Tube BAM is his design... probably only Dave Berning has any idea of what the circuit/schematic is ... With enough time and money, anything is possible and can be built (i.e. a tube BAM), but I think has dgarretson has shown - some mods/improvements to what folks currently have in their hands is probably a more reasonable way to go.

Cheers
Rich

@rodge827 do you mind sharing your experience with Merlins and how the Charney Audio Concerto compares to them? How do you describe the sound? Would be helpful to know the general character; strengths and weaknesses, compared to Merlin and/or in general. Thanks.

Charney Audio Concerto will fill your room with exceptional sound for $22,000!
Your electronics should work perfectly well with the Concerto and with the 3k left over you can treat the room accordingly.
Charney is in Somerset NJ a quick flight from Orlando to Newark Intl.
Contact Brian Charney and arrange for an audition...you'll be glad you did! :)

@signaturesound Thank you for a very informative post. The coincident technology line stage (Preamp) has two single ended and one balanced output.  Manual mentions that two single-ended outputs allow for bi-amping. Does this mean that both single ended outputs are active simultaneously where one would go into BAM to amplifier and the other to Subwoofer? May be this is a question for coincident tech guys.
Also, do you recall where the subwoofers were w.r.t the walls and the merlins? 
I see light at the end of the tunnel. Hope funk fixes my issue. 
@dgarretson Can you share the schematics of the upgrades done to the BAM?
Also, anyone have any info on how to get the tube mod to BAM? 
This has been a valuable discussion. 
Thanks.

@dgarretson At one time probably 10 plus years ago I had a customers Velodyne (single 15 inch model)  on hand... I tired like heck to get it to work well (with my VSMs) in my 11.3' by 20' by 7.5' room with zero luck... the room would just not cooperate. The sub was too big and always made its presence felt in the wrong ways. It takes the right (size) room, good affordable DSP available these days, and more than one sub (IMO) to get a sub and VSMs to play well.

BTW, the batteries in the BAM are not NiCad, they are NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride if I have it right). I do not doubt that a really good linear supply(s) (you would need two, one each for the positive and negative rails or multiply that by 2 if you want true dual mono power which would be best) bypassing the internal regulators in the BAM would be a improvement though would add substantial cost as well (I think a couple of good Paul Hynes supplies would probably run $1,000 or more, right?)

Cheers
Rich

Interesting discussion! :-)

I can't add any info about alternative speaker choices (given my biases :-) , not that I can think of anything besides some of the speakers already mentioned which would approach close to full range or full range type performance with a 20W SET amp), BUT I can add some thoughts about using subs with VSMs . . .

Many are right, Bobby would not like using the VSMs without the BAM and subs. It can be done though - from what I have just read of the Funk subs on their site and some reviews, given its DSP and crossover point adjust-ability - integration should not be a problem (especially with two subs vs one in my experience). I would certainly give it a try.

Though with the BAM, I would like to point out you can get a very good sub-woofer - VSM system. It has been done.... I have a long time local customer who has owned Merlin VSMs (updated) for many years (With Joule-Electra preamp and a old pair of Joule OTLs). His system is set up in a huge space (the home is pretty much a open barn like space and not a small one - the volume is quite large). Years ago (still in use today with some minor changes) we set up this sub set-up: two large (physcialy twice plus the size of the Funk 18.0's mentioned in this thread) Infra-Sonic (I think that is the name, the company is long gone) passive subs powered by a large 600W/ch Crown Macro ref amp, with Bryston active stereo sub woofer crossover used to set the low pass (top freq roll-off) for the subs.

One output came from the preamp, to the BAM and then to the OTLs. The other output from the preamp went to the Bryston and then to the Crown amp. I did the fine tuning of the level and crossover point by ear (this was around 2000 - before such cheap handy DSP stuff and measurement tools were available!) I wound up running the subs up to around 40Hz. Yes, that meant a fair amount of overlap between the VSM/BAM and the subs in the 30 to low 40s range, but with things phased right the results were/are downright majestic. Whether a big full scale Orchestral work or something like FourPlay, this setup had/has wonderful impact and scale. Jerry's set-up is probably the only VSM based system I've heard that had that big a sense of scale (I'm sure the large size of the room/space has something to do with that).

BTW, in a larger room with stereo subs, I would also try pulling the VSM's wider apart (more so that the approx 6ft Bobby usually recommended) with a bit more toe in. The added fullness/weight added by the subs will help fill things in allowing the speakers to work better further apart - probably give a bigger sense a scale/stage.

Hopefully this tale provides some fuel for thought. I'd hate to see anyone sell their (Black Magic) VSM! :-) - Rich

@glennewdick great looking system! Curious what you were driving the AN/E's with when you had them? With stuff like this I find it's often less about watts and more about a stiff power supply.

Sorry, i miss read your problem. 

I own the same speaker
Had the idea also.  I called
The man. B. P.  He said"" No""  with a hour of explaining  and talking about everything fun. He's missed  4 Shore.
He don't know this butt  i got some tin 6 strips  driled holes  attached it to each merlin cones then
Screwed other end in the
Wood floor.  There not moving  

Oh sorry missed that your amps are 20wpc that is more what the ANE's need.

What could be the crossover frequency and slope for integrating Merlins with subwoofer? I have two funk subwoofers that I will try to integrate.
I will keep consolidating the recommendations for future reference. I am sure Merlin'ers would stumble upon these suggestions. 

Von Scheikert
Coincident Tech line
Dynaudio (..but not suitable for SET amplifier)
Audio Note AN/E

I have no doubt that the BBAM may effect subjective and measured performance of the speaker well into the midrange region. I’m not convinced removing it and adding a well integrated sub or better two would be a negative at least in my recent experiences with my current monitors where I noted a huge improvement across the board including the midrange and further improvement adding a 2nd sub well beyond anything gained by that BAM whether Berning's tube Bam  with 1k worth of premium VCAP and Vishays or Bobby's super BBAM. I only wish I tried a sub when I owned the Merlins, it may have been the answer to my frustration with that design aside from the positives. 

Audio Note AN/E it does everything you are looking for sounds great and is perfectly suited to your amps. Also well under your budget though you can upgrade internal parts and spend as much as you want. I have a pair of AN/J's on the way myself, the AN/E is a bit too large for my small room.

According to the manual, the BAM prvovides 5.2dB of boost at 35 Hz with a Subsonic bass roll-off below 27Hz.  Although Bobby M didn't like subs, he did recommend not using the BAM if using subs since the end user will be crossing the speakers over the effective range of the BAM.