@nonoise
So, if I give you a good dose of LSD reality itself has now morphed into something else and the rest of humanity should be able to perceive that? The causal link between phenomenon in the universe and what you perceived them to be is very loose at best. There is no phenomenon in the universe know as blue. Blue is purely a construct of your perception based upon your biological reaction to electromagnetic radiation of a certain energy value. It’s highly debatable whether any two people experience that the same way. The color blind certainly don’t.
So tell me more about this "empirical perception", will you? Demonstrate to the crowd how brutally uninformed you are. |
@gdhal
Yeah... It's weird how it's offensive when I say it, but it's not when somebody quotes it to say something even more incendiary in response. My point withstands in all seriousness though. Plenty of legal drugs will dramatically alter your hearing. Geoff seems to assume I'm talking about something else. |
@nonoise
Well, I say it’s all in your head. There’s no reason to believe anything else. It’s the best possible explanation. I’m sorry, but I’m not very interested in listening to someone else’s psychological phenomenon. The facts, as far as I can find them, only support that it’s pure imagination. I’m sorry if that insults you. I keep asking for an alternative explanation and all I get is, in essence, "I can hear beyond the most sophisticated means of measuring!" Hogwash. I’m careful to avoid delusional thinking, and if you want to call avoiding delusional thinking a fault or weakness, so be it. That’s what this looks like to me. I don’t think it’s good or healthy. It’s not being "open minded".
What's more, I've had to learn a bit about practicing law in the last 9 months because I've been representing myself in a civil legal matter. It's just a basic tenant of law and general dialogue that the initiator of a motion or statement bares the responsibility of making their case. And it's generally accepted that when a claimant fails to substantiate their claims with some kind of evidence, they've lost. |
@georgehifi
Whoa... Talk about totally lifting a statement out of context to give it your own meaning. |
@georgehifi
Well, that's why you're lifting it completely out of context to redefine the meaning of my words. You deliberately lop off the qualifying statement "in essence" so you can reframe the statement to your liking. It's dishonest.
@nonoise
No doubt this is no court. That model of debate doesn't originate in court. It's a basic convention of civilized conversation. Am I to assume there's nothing civilized about this conversation?
The argument the "believers" make, and the only one as far as I can tell, is they hear something and the only way I can know myself is to try it myself. Ironically, this is a great way to believe in God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Just try to believe and magically you will. I don't think just wanting to believe in thing is a good reason to believe in things. For instance, I believe in God because they're is a powerfully compelling body of evidence to warrant considering the belief. But in this fuse thing, there's no body of evidence at all to justify the consideration. And just like devoted believers in God, nobody will persuade "fuse believers" to the contrary because they've had what they believe to be an authentic experience regardless of the actual phenomenology at work.
Because I've been formally trained to do so, I know what tools work for convincing people to believe in things that they cannot see or hear. I know what it looks like when people and marketing departments use those tools. I'm pretty sure that's what I'm seeing here.
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@nonoise
All you had to say was you don't know what phenomenology is. You didn't need to prove it.
A "body of evidence" is in no way developed by amplifying the number of people suffering the delusion. That's not a rational basis for believing anything. And what exactly is "empirical perception"? That's a concept so fundamentally flawed in premise it should be obvious. Because you think you perceived something it must be manifest in outside world? Where do I even begin with how wrong that assumption is? |
Again, my points are refuted by pure ignorance. I'm being challenged on the question of whether serotonergic drugs effect perception. That is a scientific question so completely settled it's not even funny. I cited LSD because it's effects are dramatic, but there's no shortage of endogenous serotonergic drugs coursing through you system as we speak. They're only roughly in some homeostasis. That's what give rise to mood restfulness, wearyness. and the plethora of senses. Did one of you suggest there were only 5 senses? That's a pretty well proven falsehood as well. If the barking madness of ignorance wasn't so funny it would be sad, but as it is, I'm getting good laughs, so by all means, carry on! |
@nonoise
No, not at all. Truth is most definitely a narrowly defined thing. And the truth is that fuses make no difference if their up to the task! It sounds like you're just groping for a cogent argument like that lawyer there describes. Knock yourself out. |
@nonoise
I know this explanation will go WAY over your head, but if any wire or fuse was directional it would effectively put DC on the AC line. Why ever would you want to do something that stupid? In a bipolar power supply you'd end up with one rail running less voltage than the other. You think that's a good thing? |
@nonoise
I'm still waiting for the measurements. |
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@nonoise
I'm waiting for you to send them to me. I'd prefer the best money can buy just to make sure I'm getting the full effect. Might want to toss in a power cord too. I don't want the $1 Good Will cord being the weak link. |
@nonoise
I'm on the fence about power cords. I'll probably turn one of my 11g 6-way cables into one when I make a new pair, assuming I like them better. I'm not wasting $30 to sample snake oil though. That's just stupid. If I wanted to know the difference that bad I'd just jump the fuse block. |
Didn’t I explain my setup here before? How it's nothing like what the vast majority of you are using? |
@nonoise
.....for a bad design. And by definition, something so prone to such a nuance back behind the power supply is a poor design. The entire point of a power supply is to filter noise and smooth the incoming power. The ideal power supply provides the rail voltages and current the circuit requires with no noise or perturbations. By saying a single fuse made that kind of difference, one is also saying the power supply was garbage. All you're hearing in a stereo is the modulated output of a power supply so it better be good. That's why good amps have very robust power supplies resistant to all kinds of garbage. In a good amp, it's the most expensive thing, second to only some of the ridiculous chassis some build, like D"Agostino. |
@nonoise
No. It's of average density. I'm kinda wondering what it's like down where you're at though. Molasses? How confused do you have to be to consider a poorly designed component virtuous because it's sensitive to things it absolutely should not be? You don't understand that a power supply so prone to the influence of a fuse is probably prone to all kinds of garbage coming in over the mains? You know something that justifies that obvious failing of engineering? If so, do share. |
@nonoise
How can you experiment with things you don't understand? That's not experimentation. That's blind guess work. Do you think that's how these sage engineers you idolize build components? At least George and I can look at a circuit and argue about it because we have a clue what we're looking at. You wouldn't know a current source from a coupling capacitor. But you KNOW fuses matter.
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@nonoise
Lots of wrong assumptions there, as usual. Real weak on the personal attacks, too. I do make it habit to explain myself though, but not to you or anyone else. I make it habit to explain and justify myself to myself. I'm sorry you don't know anything about what you're talking about. No, you certainly don't need technical knowledge to listen. But if you're going to get into technical tweaks, you might at least train yourself to be a more objective listener. Then you could at least come here and describe what you're hearing in more detail than "good" and "better". For instance, "highs were more extended", "distortion was diminished", or "bass had more speed and authority". Get good at listening if that's your thing. |
@nonoise
I'm over here making changes to an amp I built myself. Then I come here and read people claiming a single fuse is making a bigger difference that changing the bias in my amp by .32 amp. That's a BIG change in an F5. That's a change that exapands the class A envelope by 25 watts and dramatically lowers the distortion. Do you see how it's really hard to believe a fuse can have an impact on par with that? That's stuff you can measure.
I wish I had the gear to do it. When I do get the gear I'll gladly measure what fuses are doing. Are you understanding where I'm coming from with my skepticism? |
@nonoise
George and I have had our words. I'm glad to see he we can find agreement on some things while disagreeing on others. Too many hear just want to disagree with me because I'm me no matter what I say.
For what some folks spend on a single fuse, I could convert my amp into a full dual mono back to the switch. I'd do that way before buying a fuse. |
@douglas_schroeder
You really don't get it, do you? It's about the value, of which, there's none. What's the appropriate cost for a fuse in a $5000 amp? $50$? $100? How much bigger can you make the heatsink for $50 or $100? Much bigger. How much bigger can you make the transformer for $100? Much bigger. How about the filtering capacitor value? Or better filtering? That money goes much further in adding meaningful, measurable performance in other areas than any fuse will. You think real engineers are wasting their time with fuses? |
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@nonoise
I strongly dislike Chicago. I've got plenty of dealers to choose from in Detroit and Columbus. I'd sooner put a copper tube in the holder before blowing $40 on a fuse anyways. I can't think of a better reference than that. |
I've been to every major city in North America except for San Diego and a couple in Canada. Chicago is, by far, the most miserable, bitter, filthy hole I've ever been to. It's like somehow they condensed the state of New Jersey into a city. I really like Chattanooga and Los Angeles. Cincinnati isn't bad either. Places like Chicago, NYC, Atlanta... I go there, look around, and ask myself "Why would anybody choose to live like this by choice?".
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"The Garden State"... If gardens grew smoke stacks. |
Uberwaltz,
Put into perspective the number of boutique fuse users to the literally billions of people who uses dozens of devices with fuses in them every day. A few tens of thousands in a market segment of tens of millions worldwide, in a population of billions. I'm not sure such a minority qualifies as a significant voice. There are probably more flat earthers in America than boutique fuse users. I don't think that means flat earthers might have a point.
Beginning with the premise that reality is a certain way, or could even possibly be that way, is a huge step to experiencing it that way. I tend to be skeptical of realities that lend themselves to delusion and misconception. I think it's dangerous. I think it's wiser to begin with a reasonable basis to believe reality is a certain way before trying to perceive it as such. |
Stereophile’s monthly circulatiy in 2013 was 72,156. I think it’s safe to assume their website traffic is much higher than that. I can’t find any total numbers for the big forum sites. The US loudspeaker market by itself was $1.44 billion last year. That doesn’t include Bluetooth speakers, sound bars, or the like. The home audio market is worth $3 billion. |
Auxinput,
Really, the folks in favor of fuses are much more the religious zealots than I am. There's no objectivity to their conclusions. Of the tends of thousands of tweakers and DIY'ers out there with benches full of gear, none of them seem to have substantiated the claims made about fuses, or exotic outlet materials, or a host of other claims. It's just patently false that any human has hearing more sensitive than your average scope. I'm curious what's going on here, why people think they're hearing things. But the claims being made so often are hard to believe.
You're going on about end cap material, conductor, and the envelope... Over 1 inch of circuit! What about the other 100 feet that are 5 or 10 percent tolerance? Traces on PCB that are just plain old copper. Lead solder joints. The yards and yards of wire in the transformer. You know what they use in sensitive circuits in computers that need protection? They use high quality, purpose built resistors. It's an entire categoy of resistors made to do that. You can get them with all kinds of properties. There's just so much that seems fishy to me in all of this.
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Auxinput,
What objectivity exactly? Your perceptions? The same perceptions that are interpreting my rational seeking of empirical evidence as an attack? Those tools of perception are the ones you want me to accept as "objective"? Uh..... I'll pass.
Bottom line. Power supplies should be impervious to the kinds of perturbations you're talking about, especially at the prices you folks are paying for them. Maybe theres something not being properly evaluated in power supply design. I don't know. All I do know is that it shouldn't make a difference. That's the sole purpose of the power supply. |
@geoffkait
....and the rest of the confused crowd,
By definition, empirical measurements require the use of a commonly accepted scale of some weight or measure. Therefore, no listening test can be empirical. Without some empirical scale, the "listening measurement" (a true oxy-moron) is purely subjective. It could only be objective if there were such a thing as a standardized ear and perception and all conceivable variations controlled for. You people aren't even doing a basic multi-variant analysis, which is the closest you could possibly come to a useful, scientific analysis.
I'll also take note of the fact nobody has of yet questioned my assertion that susceptibility to the influence of a fuse is a failing of the power supply.
Carry on with your mischaracterizations, conflating of terms, and misunderstandings.... |
Oh! Cool! I'm going to remember that next time somebody questions the existence of God! Tens of millions of people have perceived God and documented it so His existence is now scientific fact. I kinda like that definition! |
I'm just characterizing exactly how Uberwaltz defined the evidence here. |
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There's no difference at all. Explain how there's a difference. |
Would you say that's a very broad definition? I read that and thought "Gosh... If we're taking that as the meaning of "evidence", we've got a problem because direct observation seems to contradict instrument assisted observation." It would also seem to lump in subjective observation without discrimination. |
It most definitely doesn’t take the prerequisite of faith to perceive God. That much has been clinically proven. In fact, I think the perception tends to precede the faith.
My point is that if mere perception endures as evidence, we can dispense with the delusion of objectivity right now. That demonstrable nonsense. How we experience the world has practically nothing to do with how the world really behaves. Our perceptions are an abstraction predicated on phenomenon way beyond our organic ability to observe the true nature of.
P.S.
I'm at work so I basically have nothing to do. |
Uberwaltz,
It is. I build and modify stuff and if these fuses do to my gear what they claim, I've clearly done something wrong based on the premise my power supply should be immune to such minor things. It's like people here forget a $5000 amp probably costs less than $1000 to build and shove out the factory door. |
@douglas_schroeder
Can you explain why you think better gear should be more prone to superfluous phenomenon? |
@douglas_schroeder
Looks like Almarg sums up the point eloquently. And I firmly believe he's right in his assertion that electronics designers wouldn't consider sensitivity to a fuse to be a virtue. It takes no skill or cost to build a circuit exceedingly sensitive to minor perturbations. Use the smallest, cheapest transformers. Use the smallest, cheapest filter caps. Don't bother with more intensive filtering or smoothing. I'm highly confident in my ability to design power supplies that would be revealing of all manner of silliness. I don't think I'll be designing Pass power supplies in the near future.
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@nonoise
Then let's put the assumption to the test. I will make my build of the F5 available to anyone within reasonable driving distance of Toledo, Ohio with a scope, signal generator, and distortion analyzer.. This is an amp with a 600VA toroidal, 120,000uF of filter capacitance, and 32V rails. It will reliable drive 30 watts DC into a 2 ohm load and peters out on the top end around 1,000,000Hz. I think that should be sufficient to measure any audible artifacts contributed by a fuse. Please message me to make arrangements. |
@nonoise
I'll pass and I'll tell you why. The power supply in that thing is big enough to be immune to me sitting there rapidly flipping the power switch on and off. The LED indicators all over it don't even flicker. Second, I do doubt my hearing at higher volume, which is where I'd expect a discernable difference. |
Uh.... No. Power doesn't need more regulation on account of noise. A decent unregulated linear supply is very quiet. |
I buy fuses for my F5 in 5 packs at AutoZone. Bussman, I believe. The IEC receptical/switch/fuse/filter module I'm using has provision for dual fusing. I use one and jumper the other. It makes NO difference regardless of how I configure it.
If fuses make any difference, which HIGHLY debatable, every believer in them radically overstates their effect. I've seen guys here write that a fuse was so harsh as to be unlistenable before burning in. That's impossible to believe. Their snake oil. If your unit is lacking some quality a fuse adds, there are better, more cost effective ways to gain the attribute than some insanely priced inch of wire. |
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Do any of you ever step back and try to imagine what this kind of ludicrous debate looks like to normal people? "Fusers" strike me as the audio equivalent to those religious fundamentalists who insist you must pronounce God's name in some strange way or else he won't hear your prayers.
We don't need a fuse forum here. We need a snake oil forum and I nominate this tread as it's founding post. |
The only person I’ve plopped down in the listening chair and played music for who didn’t immediately recognize that they were hearing something of unique quality was a guy who was literally deaf in one ear. My hard of hearing mother thought the money and effort I was pouring into this was kinda crazy.... Until she heard it. It doesn’t take some wacky obsession for somebody to appreciate quality sound and want it for themselves. It doesn’t take hocus pocus fuses either. I’m looking at a thread here full of people swearing fuses - things not even in the actual signal path - make these marked differences. A few months ago I ripped out the big, bad madly shielded IC cables I used in my F5 obtained from a fellow building some very nice cables and replaced it with some solid 26g twisted copper connecting the RCA jacks to the amp boards. That’s a change far more radical than a freaking fuse. It made only the most barely perceptible difference. A $50 for a fuse, eh? To alter the sound of $5 worth of transistors? That’s not insane? I’d be better off better matching my source resistors! Hell of a lot more difference! Hell of a lot cheaper! |
@shadorne
It must! And what about the insulation on the power lines? Don't the squirrels cause capacitance? And what if it's nuclear power like I'm using?
@geoffkait
Not revealing enough, huh? From the guy who sells cheap, tweaked, off-brand Walkmans for insane money. And mystic, magic message labels. And green spots. Uh huh.... Weighty opinions are your domain. |
I can promise you that I can use $50 to improve almost any piece of gear in a more useful way than a fuse ever could. It's not a matter of cash. It's a matter of brains, and fuses are brainless. |
