Art Audio Vinyl One with MM/MC and gain control knob has been most enjoyable for the investment for me. I enjoy a more natural sound. It's mated to Origin Live Illustrious arm, Shelter 90x cart, SOTA Nova V vacuum tt.
The playback I get is often haunting with an "I am there where the music is being made" presence. Seems wonderful across all music categories. Anyhow, that's my(very satisfying) experience as I've progressed up the ladder.
I do not want to afford anything much higher priced although I am quite certain I would even be more thrilled with the playback results. |
1. Anything I designed myself.
2. Anything anyone else designed which sounds better than what I designed.
3. This list is not neccessarily in order. |
Today I happily live with the Wavestream Kinetics phonostage and another MC tube unit that has been extensively modified. The Wavestream unit is a MC tube unit is designed by Scott Frankland in collaboration with the folks at the Analog Room in SF/Bay area CA. Scott was formerly of the F in MFA Audio back in the 80s when they made the highly regarded, Magus and Luminescence full function preamps.
It was a couple of incidental, independent/unrelated correspondence with two Audiogon members who were longtime owners of a Manley and an ASR Basis Exclusive, respectively, that first tipped me off to this unit. At the time, I knew Wavestream makes ultra expensive monoblock amps, but did not realize they offered a phonostage. These two Audiogoners (enthusiast whose listening priorities nearly align with mine) had nothing but really good things to say about Scotts new creation and they both ended up selling their prior reference phonostages after hearing them against the Wavestream. After extensive chats with these members and with Scott and Brian (of the Analog Room), I decided to purchase one and am glad I did. I have since settled on the NOS tube combo that I like best. We will soon hear this phonostage against the BAT VK-P10SE with Power Pak (a local audio club member is really anxious to do this) and two other units retailing for 2 4 times more. Will provide details when they are available. When the opportunity comes, it would also be great to hear the Aesthetix IO, Lamm LP2, Klyne, Nick Doshis, Audion Quattro, Raul's phonostage, Messenger (this along with Raul's, the Doshi and Audion are full function preamps), FM Acoustics, Connoisseur, and Boulder. So if you own one of these units and you and your phonostage happen to be visiting Southern CA, then you both are welcome to come on by for a great listening session.
I have a VPI extended Aries with a JMW 12.5 arm with an upgraded 12.6 bearing assembly plus two 12.6 wands and three cartridges: a Koetsu, Miyabi, and VDH. Have heard all the above phonostages extensively in my system, most of which I have owned, borrowing only a few from members of our audio club (all are stock unless noted).
Over the years, I heard the Trumpet, Threshold Fet 10e (stock @ first then with a modded PS), Rowland Consonance, Counterpoint SA-1k/3k/5k (stock and tube rolled), Groove, Vinyl One (full optioned and modded with Goldpoint volume pot & premium NOS tubes), Whest, Ear 88pb, Air Tight ATE-2 (NOS tubed + Bent Audio MU step-up tranny), BAT VKP10SE, ASR Basis Exclusive, Manley Steelhead (stock & tubed rolled) plus at least 6 prototypes (5 tube and 1 ss phonostages) designed by some very talented California audio engineers. A couple of these prototype units were truly superb, but they were either a one-off or special order unit and their availability is questionable to impossible. |
heard clearaudio few lines, ear 834p, dynavector, audible mod 3 built in. By far the best is the GSP Gold Era V. At $950 per piece, its money well worth. |
I have been using the H-Cat phono for several years. I has the same character as the P-12BX line stage, namely very transparent, open, and clear. It has excellent top and bottom ends.
I have not tried other phono stages lately but were I to do so, it would be the Einstein Tube. I have heard it in other systems and can say I heard how quiet it is and been impressed with its sound. I also have friends who rave about it saying the reviews which are raves fall short of telling what it is capable of. Until I try it in my home, I will not know whether it has the "magic" of the H-Cat. |
When the opportunity comes, it would also be great to hear the Aesthetix IO, Lamm LP2, Klyne, Nick Doshis, Audion Quattro, Raul's phonostage, Messenger (this along with Raul's, the Doshi and Audion are full function preamps), FM Acoustics, Connoisseur, and Boulder. Raul's phonostage? Has anyone actually heard one of these besides Raul? |
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4yanx, I've ordered separates from Nick. Just to let everyone know that is an option. |
FWIW, the phono stage in the Nick Doshi Alaap has been A/B'd by one Alaap owner or another against Aesthetix Io, Aesthetix Rhea, Klyne, Lamm LP2 and all three Suprateks. (Probably more, but those are the ones I'm sure of.)
The Alaap is better than any of these. Io, Rhea, Klyne and Supratek Grange owners have all replaced their units with one of Nick's. I am unbelievably lucky to have met him and to own one.
Swampwalker's VAC Renaissance came closer to my Alaap than any phono preamp I've heard. It didn't have quite the frequency extension but it was close in most other respects. I'd also love to hear Raul's, which I suspect is very good indeed.
These private built designs offer opportunities for no-compromise componentry and fanatically careful circuit layouts at a relatively affordable cost. When a design goes commercial then compromises must occur and/or the price must go through the roof. Private builders making one unit at a time can indulge in luxuries that would be impractical for a commercial operation.
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Didn't Kevin Carter or K&K Audio phono stage fame design the Renaissance when he was with VAC? The K&K bested the Io (non sig) Rhea, and Klyne in the test we did. Never heard the Supratek |
Just heard the phono stage in the Audio Note Japan (KONDO) M1000. Ouch! This has to be one of the best I've yet heard, can't afford one but for those with pockets...... |
i've owned or had in my system a few good phono stages including the Aesthetix Io, Io Sig w/dual power supplies, the Lamm LP2 Delux, BAT VK10SE and Blowtorch. i've heard the Connoisseur Definitions 4.0, Boulder, Manley, Wavac, and others at shows.
the phono stage in the battery powered darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp that i am currently using must be considered as a contender as best phono stage. it's extremely low noise floor, other-worldly dynamics, and ease and naturalness make it the best phono stage i have heard.
some of the phono stages i have only heard at shows may be as good or better but nothing i have experienced would indicate that. |
Clearaudio Balanced Reference phono stage with dual mono power supply and phono stages. Best to my ears among few very few good ones that I auditioned. |
The Walker Reference is without a doubt the best I've heard, although I amnot sure if that is sold only with the Proscenium Gold table or separately. |
David,
I didn't know KC was involved in designing the Renaissance. Kudos if he was. As I mentioned, it's the second best I've heard. Decidedly better than the Rhea or Lamm in my own experience. If I were buying a commercial unit the Renaissance would be my choice from those I've heard.
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The best I have heard... is no preamp at all.
I like the TVC approach and have been very pleased by the Sonic Euphoria.
When it comes to active preamps, the Klyne was the best I have had the privilage of really evaluating. |
Dougdeacon raises a very good point on the issue of what ultimately happens when a product goes commercial. The personal service from a privately built design would appeal much to me as well. Establishing a good relationship with such a designer would be a good first step to getting a top performer that would otherwise be way out of reach. And this could be equally true with an engineer skilled in modifying equipment.
There's a lot of commentary here as to one model being "better" than another. But nobody ever seems to describe or quantify the differences, much less as to why it is better. Or is "preferred" a more appropriate term? Come on guys, please tell me what it is about one model that you like over the other.
As an owner of the Io, I am very much aware of its weakness with it not being as extended on the top as well as lacking the ultimate in low-level resolution compared to its competition. But what it does in the context of midrange textures so far is unmatched by others I have auditioned.
If you have not heard the Io fully loaded with Telefunken 12ax7 & 6DJ8 and Mullard EL34, you simply have not heard the Io. Anyone who judges this with the stock Sovtek tubes has no idea the potential of this product. Yes, it can be a bit of a hassle and costly to experiment with various EL34, 6922, 12ax7, etc, tubes here. But if someone is spending $10k or even $20k for a preamp, I would think that a week or two of effort and $1000 in tubes to audition would be small peanuts.
At this point, if I had to return to the Sovtek tubes, I would surely move onto a different model which has all the latest whiz-bang passive components and other advances. But for a fraction of the cost to move up to such a new design, the Io's massive under-the-hood space allows for virtually any passive component to be upgraded.
The Io Signature is $3k more than the standard Io and yet if you look at the parts difference between these two, there really is not a huge difference. Most likely the sonic performance benefits here are what "justify" the significant cost difference. I suspect simply changing ALL the Relcaps to Dynamicaps or V-Caps would take this unit to a whole new level. And this too could easily be done for no more than $1k. Just imagine the insane price in a commercial upgrade....the Io Signature Statement Reference.
For the performance benefits from the two $1k investments I mentioned above, I suspect this done to a standard Io would not only so easily surpass the Io Signature but could easily compete with all the commercialized products that were mentioned above. It might not be "better" as people here say, but it would certainly exceed the performance in some very key areas. |
Earthpulse - This is a discussion on phono stages not line stages. "No preamp at all" is not applicable here. |
my bad, Jafox.
The Klyne I mentioned will have to do. |
Dear friends: +++++ " These private built designs offer opportunities for no-compromise componentry and fanatically careful circuit layouts at a relatively affordable cost. When a design goes commercial then compromises must occur and/or the price must go through the roof. Private builders making one unit at a time can indulge in luxuries that would be impractical for a commercial operation. " +++++
This Doug post is a very interesting one, not only because I have self design: Phonolinepreamp, but because like Doug say it the design is a no-compromise one. In our ( José and I ) Phonolinepreamp we don't do any compromises: not only in the design it self, research, testing, parts, layout, etc, but more important we don't do any compromise on the quality sound reproduction against the LIVE MUSIC. Our design is not a comercial-thinking or price-minded design but a music-lover design and this subject makes a great diference against the comercial designs, this is a very important and critical plus for all of you.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Rapogee: Other than our self design: Vendetta Research and FM Acoustics.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Can't say, because I've heard precious few in my own system. But, I have "heard" (i.e., they were in systems that I heard playing) the Connoisseur, the top-of-the-line Boulder, an Audionote (uk) M-10, and a Kondo rig (I think M-77 with stepup). The best I've heard in my own system, which I plan on purchasing, is the VivA Fono (an Italian tube-based phono stage with input transformers). It worked well for me with my Lyra Titan once I experimented with a demonstration model by removing loading resistors and changing the type of 12AX7 tubes it utilizes (it was originally optimized for a Transfiguration Orpheus). |
Would the answer to the best phono stage be a cartridge dependant answer or is it an absolute for "most" cartridges? |
Dear Dgad: In my opinion the phonopreamp don't depend on the cartridge in use ( other that the cartridge output level ), as a fact a cartridge quality sound reproduction depends on the phonopreamp in use.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Rapogee: There is a critical audio link that in my opinion all of us must to take in count to give you answers to your " open " question: that critical audio link is the line stage preamp where we ( all ) paired those phono stages.
Normally the stand alone phono stages needs a line preamp for it can work. For to do this we need additional connectors and interconnect cables and the line preamp it self. This line preamp must be accurate, very low distortions, transparent/clean and very well balanced top to botoom.
Maybe some of you can think that your line preamp is a " star " one and maybe it is, but I can tell you that there are only a few line preamps with a top quality sound reproduction. That's why we decided to design and build our phonolinepreamp in an integrated way: the synergy between both stages is of paramount importance and you can't make any compromise here.
Our phono stage design is a great one but our line stage design is a great one too: same quality performance level!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul- I do not doubt that your phonoline stage is excellent, but I do take exception to the "no compromise" statement. Every design involves trade-offs. If there was one design approach that did not involve compromise,then everyone would follow it. That is a bit of an overstatement, but I think you understand what I mean. |
Dear Swampwalker : In absolute terms I agree with you: " every design involves trade-offs ", like anything in the life: there is nothing perfect.
Your post give me the opportunity to do a " stop on the road " ( thx for that ) and " see " which are our Phonolinepreamp trade-offs :
first, the whole concept design: it is a true balanced input to output, non feedback, direct coupled, dual mono, pure class A, fully regulated input to output with a dual mono external power supply and current drive whole design with a " ground plane " approach.
This topology is for the three separately stages that composed the Phonolinepreamp in an integral unit: MC stage, MM stage and line stage: as a fact this Phonolinepreamp has three independent preamps.
In my opinion we don't have any trade-offs here.
second, circuit diagram ( layout ): this is something that after 12 years of work José perfectioned. The latest modifications we did it in this year. We research everything about the RIAA eq., MC/MM and line stages and today we can say are almost perfect.
Here to our knowledge there is almost no trade-offs, but who knows: ?
third, parts we use it: in those 12 years we almost tested ( matched ) the whole critical and non so critical parts like: transistors, Fets, teflon capacitors, resistors, solder, buffers, connectors, switchs, attenuators,
power transformers, etc, etc. Btw, our design don't use any signal cable internally, everything is soldered to our 4 layers boards. Where were necessary we use military specs parts and 0.01% limit on the value parts.
Here I think that we can have some trade-offs: these trade-offs could be the whole limits and quality of those parts. THis not depends of us, we use it only the best.
fourth, circuit boards: we use one of the best/quality boards supplier that we can find and it is in Silicon Valley.
can we have a trade-off here?. I think not but it could be.
fifth, power supply, this is it:
To complement our balanced design's inherent power supply rejection capability, we have designed an audio grade power supply that takes power quality to a new degree. The power supply is located in its own separate chassis in order to minimize any possibility of interference in the analog signal stages of the preamplifier. The power supply has been specifically designed to be an improvement over battery supplies having very low noise and low impedance . Some of the characteristics of the power supply are: Discrete dual mono design with 4 ultralow noise supplies for the left channel and 4 ultralow noise supplies for the right channel, dual high-quality toroidal transformers, AC power RFI/EMI filtering, extended power range of +/- 20 % of the nominal input, and high quality military-grade power connectors.
Is there " land " to improvement?, maybe, but for today we are satisfied.
sixth, the interface with the outside world: Ultrawide bandwidth output buffers.
There are 4 ultrawide bandwidth class A balanced output buffers responsible of interfacing the preamplifier to the outside world with transparency and current capability to drive even the most difficult loads and cabling. Every channel has 4 independent power supplies, two of them
dedicated to the balanced signal stages, and the other two dedicated exclusively to the output buffers. The adoption of this strategy is simple to explain: No matter how difficult the output load is, the preamplifier will always deliver the optimal signal quality at its outputs.
I think no trade-offs here.
I know that our Phonolinepreamp is not perfect but we are still trying to achieve that target.
The result of our work is a preamplifier combining
the purity and transparency of a passive preamplifier with the speed, dynamics and drive of an active preamplifier.
Well, what can I say?. I don't want that you think that I'm conceited, no: the fact is that we are proud of what we have and we want to share with you and every one our achievements about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I live and work in the Valley. Who is your board supplier? |
Dear 4yanx: Sierra Proto.
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear Dear Swampwalker : Our Phonolinepreamp is an active high gain design: no step-up transformer/autoformers inside/out.
The gain can be tailored up to 100db with the same quality performance: no trade-offs.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Swampwalker: Finally, something that help us to make a minimum trade-offs on the circuit/layout design was the extensive use of specialty computer help/design platafforms like: Spice, Ultiboard, electronic Workbench/Multisim, etc.., were we can confirm the validity and truthful of our work.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear 4yanx: I wonder why do you have interest on our circuit board supplier? do you need it?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Swampwalker: Do you have any comments about?
Btw, which your best one.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I second the Nick Doshi Phono Preamp. It out classed my prior reference the Supratek Grange. Which I have to say was a fine preamp as well, with excellent bass control, however, the Grange lacked the organic tone and musicality off the Doshi. Other phono pre amps I have owned are the Mcintosh C200 and Mcintosh C2200. Neither of the Mac's are in the same leauge as the Nick Doshi or the Supratek Grange. |
Foundation Research V5 tops them all. Custom assembly made specifically for the cartridge to be used. Hence, no switches. From the ground up, well engineered with built quality being first rate. Two key areas are addressed in its design, Mechanical & Electrical Isolation. There is a waiting list and delivery is 8 to 12 weeks ARO. At 6K, there is none better, even at double or triple the cost. |
It's interesting to get people's take on the Herron vs. the Rhea. I have owned both for the past few years and have a different take than others who have compared them.
The Rhea eats tubes and eventually gets noisy. Since I'm replacing the tube set AGAIN, I dropped the unit off at Aesthetix for a once over to see if some other problem is causing this behavior (I live by the beach and it may be salt air which is a pain in the ass in so many regards). However,
With new tubes, the Rhea strikes me as AT LEAST comparable to the Herron in every way and strikingly superior in one key regard.
Although the Heron may be a bit tighter in the bottom end, the difference is marginal at most. OTOH, the "bloom" evident in the Rhea makes the Herron sound a bit dry and analytical (though less so than the ARC PH3 which I had in the system for a while). Note that this characteristic was evident with various cartridges through an ARC LS25 & Cary 300Bs into Merlins and Zingalis; also through a Joule LS, ARC VT130SE, Odyssey Stratos, and Cary 805s into Verity Parsifal Encores; as well as a few other combos tht have come and gone. In other words, it was consistently evident. Pretty much every visiting listener I can recall has concurred.
The Rhea is also far more flexible with multiple ins and outs and very expansive remote loading capability. The latter may be the key to its superior performance since cartridge matching is so critical.
When equipped with a new tube set, it is almost as quiet (i.e. dead silent) as the Herron. FWIW, the Herron is better than any other phono stage I've had in the system - and that is a very long list!
Regards,
Marty |
The General Electric MONO one tube(6SC7) phono preamp circa 1955- 959. 1957 Price: $10.95. YES, it is the First and still the Best preamp ever made (millions sold over the years). This is the preamp that started the moving magnet revolution. SIMPLER IS BEST. I would not use any other phono preamp with my Cary 211's |
The build in phonostage in my Paragon 12A preamp and my Audio Note AN-6c or Koetsu (each with different cartridges) step up transformer. I've heard a lot of phonostages (owned a ASR Basis Exclusive and Audio Research PH5, E.a.r.) and even sold my beloved Gryphon Orestes phonostage since they all could't match the Paragons ability to make you focus just on music while listening. |
Paragon 12A, wow, how fondly I remember that piece. |
I am posting here again since I put new tubes in the ear 834p. I have to say I am very happy with this unit and will be taking it to a higher level. I am considering having it rebuilt completely with the finest parts. |
Aesthetix IO Signature. I can't believe that I have not posted here yet? Until now, the one and only best phono stage I have heard is the IO Signature. I have heard the Pass Xono, the ASR Basis both mini and exlusive, the Einstein and the integrated on my Octave preamp. The IO was to me in another league coimpared to these others. I have no reason to look further nor do I desire to persue anything else to compare the IO too, I am completely off the audio rage of the day,,,,,,now I need to see how quad amping will sound like, yes, that is my next quest, 4 tube mono amps.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
i am a total newbie, and may be WAY behind the rest here, but does anyone have nay experience with the early (mid-to-late 70s) PS Audio Phono Pre amps? seems like many who have posted here are either old enough, or have been thru enough gear to possibly have tried these?
i have a PS Audio III and a matching Linear Control Unit up and running... probably late 70s maybe like 1978-79?
just asking, and trying to learn a bit. was perusing past threads on MC cartridges, amps and S/U transformers trying to pick up some info and happened upon this thread.
just for your information, i have mono Quicksilver M-80s, the PS Audio pre amps with Vandersteen 3s, also a Rega Planar3 TT, McIntosh MR 71 and Jolida JD100 CDP... all vintage, except the TT and CDP.
thanks
tom |
I think so far -- IMHO -- it has to be a toss up between the Boulder 2008, Precision Fidelity C7/A Revised, and Counterpoint SA-5000. |
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I have yet to hear a best phono stage...I own/owned a few good ones: the Aesthetix-Eclipse and Signature both with 2 power supplies and NOS tubes, Lamm lp2 deluxe with Western Electric 417a tubes, Allnic, Manley Steelhead, VAC Renaissance, etc...because there is no single best. Obviously, system dependence plays a major role, but I am not sure one unit can be a "best".
You have to decide on what you are willing to spend, what features are important to you and compromises you are willing to live with and live with them.
If I could plug in one unit that simply is the best, my wish list would include-ultra low noise, huge variable gain, infinitely adjustable settings from a remote, neutral to the extreme, plenty of air and bloom, very low
distortion, and most importantly the ability to play more often than not music that makes me feel like I am at a live performance.
I have not heard one like this yet
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The AMR phono stage has most of the features you desire, perhaps even the last one. |
I haven't had opportunity to sample many high end units, the seduction was great IMO, and the bottlehead Eros is now the best I've personally heard!!! After 8 months, I'm still loving it!!! |
I've never had one in my room, but what I've heard at shows, suggests it is the Ypsilon VPS 100 with their MC20 stepup transformer. If I could afford it, I'd have it. |
Crubio-On paper it is promising but have you heard this unit?
Has anyone else? |
I have heard it and in fact I have the step-up tranny.
This is a amazing phono pre. It is fast and nuanced but still has soul. I have heard this in two completely different systems (same phono pre) and it did nothing but great things.
The Ypsilon gets my vote. If only I could afford it.
e |
