Supporting Local Audio Stores are we?

I’m pretty sure those folks who can pony up the $$$$$$$$$ for Yachts & Bugatti’s aren’t too concerned with web sales of used audio gear. The one’s capable of laying out such copius amounts of money will continue to do so as the spirit moves them irrespective of current financial prosperity or woes. Speculative buyers, or collectors might well pull in their claws during such instances… or not.

Top tier stuff sells to an entirely different clientele. Dream systems aren’t bought by dreamers generally speaking.

When we were kids we’d all day dream out loud as to what we would own had we the $$$ for it. Eventually someone would opt for a Leer. Shortly thereafter another naysayer would chime in, “If you could buy a Leer jet, you couldn’t afford the gas for it! ”

I always thought if I could afford a private jet, gas would be the least of my worries.

When I was selling electronics, the owner of the building we leased dropped in to discuss the sale of it to us. This fella owned a goodly number of warehouses around the US. He was a car collector too.

He liked Fords especially. He had so many from the line, even FoMoCo would contact his ‘mechanics’ when another collector needed something special from an older model Ford he owned, such as a replacement part. His techs, upon approval, would pull the part off one of his cars, pack it up and send it to FoMoCo. FoMoCo would then fabricate several of this ‘sought out part’, sell the one in question, inventory another one or two, and send duplicates and the orig back to this ‘collector’.

As such, he’s never at a loss for new parts for his old cars.

Have your people call my people… we’ll do brunch sometime.

There are markets which will remain recession proof.

I think the list of buyers for the Hope Diamond, or Fabergee Eggs, were quite short… and financing was not discussed.

Uber expensive items aside… What continues to intrigue me is the ‘actual retail price’ of audio or video gear.

Just what is the actual price? MSRP?

I’ve always felt the ‘going price’ for a thing is simply what it can regularly be sold for.

Over inflation of a products list price is nonsense, and often laughable. Whatever it sells for in the end is it’s price. That’s it. Finis.

Any number of dealers or makers do submit to buyers a Yada Yada amp goes for $10K…. BUT they’ll sell it direct to you for $6K and avoid the middle man.

Hmmm. Then isn’t it worth only $6K?

For a thing to be worth $10K…. sales of it for that amount would be required to substantiate it… just saying it isn’t making it so.

Of course, those “people who have people” might have paid top dollar for it, though I seriously doubt it…. That’s why they have those “people’ around them.

No one, rich or poor, pays more than they can legitimately justify paying for a given thing.

The value of it is another story entirely.

I think that is where we find our own faults… we value certain electronic creations at times, more than needs be. You know… it’s one of them… Man! I just got to have that yada Yada preamp, or some such thing!

I’ve quit telling my friends what I pay for the stuff I get any more. … or anyone else for that matter.

I just tell ‘em to stay behind the yellow tape I have strung up about the rig and speakers, and don’t step on any cables, or touch anything… especially the remotes!

Oh, and yeah…. When they ask about my ‘antiques’, I say, “Yeah… They still make tube gear.”

Blindjim,
What an interesting perspective...a man of great intelligence.

Any product presented, meeting all the base requirements of a given market or human need have what is known as 'utility'. Utility, (going back in to distant memeory of Econ101), is explained as follows.
"A glass of water to a man floating in a crystal clear lake, has 'no value.' Yet the same glass of water is of infinite value to a man dying of thirst in a desert."

Ahhh...enter want v. need. (sounds like a Supreme court decision, no?)

We, all of us here 'want' the latest toy with the cool looking knobs and such, (oh hell admit it). I remember a great writer for one of the Paper Mags, saying one time that one of his guilty pleaures was looking at his system in the dark. (I'm thinking he was auditioning the latest tube system from Mssrs conrad and johnson). He stated categorically, that anyone who denies having done that is flat out lying.

So enter the hobbyiest notions of this 'pricing' discussion, with our interpretatins of 'fair and reasonable.'

How do we determine fair and and reasonable, and need versus want?

Abstract: "Hey Jack, I'm going to compress carbon under hundreds of thousands of pounds of pressure for several million years then present you with the results for your birthday. Want a 1 pound or 2 pound one of those?'
Jack not knowing of which he speaks says 'no thanks'.
Then, show his wife a picture of the result, under halogen lights and get HER answer.
In an audiophiles mind, that compressed carbon has 'infinite' value when we see it. (Think Farrah Fawcett's 1980's poster).
Since money is an elastic for us all, we, like Blindjims example pay whatever when we are flush. As the money contracts, we start to hedge, self mitigating our desire for said product. Then comes the chiseling of price.
Actually, it's none of our business what it costs to make a jar of Peter Pan Peanut Butter, or a gallon of milk from Deans. We only know we need them and buy them because they're food. Imagine going in a grocery and saying, "Hey would you take .59c for that jar instead of $2.59, I saw one on PeanutgoN for .45c. The can was still sealed and it had an acceptable expriation date (see warranty).

We ONLY bitch about pricing because this is a luxury commodity, and we ONLY bitch and care about margins because this is a luxury commodity.

I have sold to enough extremely wealthy folks to know this one thing. "They don't ask what the margin is." They want it to work, follow up, good service.

I'll never forget proposing the most expensive audio system I had ever fashioned together, to a neuro surgeon. I gave he and his wife three options, good, better and best, fearing the price, and thinking that I might scare him off. They studied the proposals for a while as I sweated. Then after what seemed an eternity, he asked, "If I buy this...(wait...wait...wait...) will it be better than Dr. XYX's system ?" (his best friend) exhale!



Jim Thiel and I were having dinner one night, and after a few glasses of vino, I said, "You know, I'd still sell audio if I were ridiculously wealthy." He looked at me for the longest time, then said, "Yeah...but then, you probably wouldn't be very good at it."

It's the same as, "If you had a billion dollars, would you own a Ferrari?" Answer, "Naaaa, I don't like them." RIGHT! Give that man the $1B then visit him later and check out his garage.

"Fair pricing" is only fair or unfair in our personal lexicons, and as I can only hope to gleen from our 'margin and pricing discussions here, are fair only, if WE can afford it. Let's be real here and realize that the business model I showed in an earlier post would not suit very many of you out there. Who would own a business, work countless hours per day and worry 24/7, lie awake at night staring at the ceiling, and WISH to make $3800. per month?
Some genius will shout back, "Well, uhhh, if they don't like it, let them get another job, noone's forcing them." True, but then, we have, no distribution, no demos, no 'used gear'.
I would submit that "Fair pricing" is fair if it is balanced with competition within it's market and performance. Beyond that, some of it seems tend to make pricing fair or unfair if 'we can afford it.'

If the prices as we know them now at the Local Audio Stores were truly unfair, (too much margin, specifically as we almost,repeat, almost have to consider that that manufacturers pricing because of competitive forces has to be at least reasonable), why is it so hard for those B&M dealers to stay in business?

Do I want a bargain? Sure, but the best price is not always the best deal.

Thoughts?

Do I want a bargain? Sure, but the best price is not always the best deal.

Thoughts?
Lrsky (Threads | Answers)

Well, now we're into a discussion of value...the undefinable in absolute terms. Each has his own interpretation of value.

The shrinking number of B&M stores is the clearest indicator to me that value is of less importance than price to the majority of today's buyers.

Either that, or the majority of dealers don't provide the value that their customers desire, or they can't effectively convey the benefits of their service.

Teaching, or demonstrating value takes longer than paying at the checkout stand, and many buyers simply don't have the patience to take the time to understand what they may gain by utilizing a dealer who provides them with extra service and perks...the elusive value.

Tvad says:
"Teaching, or demonstrating value takes longer than paying at the checkout stand, and many buyers simply don't have the patience to take the time to understand what they may gain by utilizing a dealer who provides them with extra service and perks...the elusive value."

You really nailed it. Why, in our ADHD society do we fail to 'take the time' to understand that by gaining a partner (read really good dealer) do we chase the price and not the product. Are we audio nuts all dillitantes or are the sales people that inept?

Someone, Jeff (forget his last name) recanted a story here on A'gon about the best sales experience he had ever had, talking about how he paid 'full retail' and was glad to do it, because of the sales experience.
Really, if it took an extraordinary experience for him to feel that paying full retail was something special, I guess that shows that very few of the sales people out there are doing an adequate job of defining and extending the lines between price and value. That was the nature of my soliloqy on the diamond in my last post.
People buy intangibles, but usually need tangible reasons to do so. One tangible in the buyers mind, would be the 'value received' either in the form of the product or the service rendered by the dealer. When he or she gets both, the 'perceived value' escallates exponentially--therefore talk of pricing would usually evaporate quickly.

I remember right here on audiogon, people paying full retail and waiting for MONTHS and MONTHS to buy preamps and amps from Mick, in Australia. I personally don't recall anyone (they may have) talking about a discount or a special inducement from him to purchase. It was all about their perceived value of the product. That whole scenario seems to be at odds with the discussion here, or does it actually confirm some of the comments?

People felt that they were getting the best price, because Mick was selling 'direct', no middle man, therefore they could perceive a value greater than those run through distribution. So the question now becomes, how many of those people who purchased, actually heard the product personally? How many realized a demo? Would they have paid restocking or a higher price to confirm the sonic qualities of the product?
Levelling the playing field with factory direct and distributed products has always been a knotty question. If it were simple to factory direct, why wouldn't everyone do it? Ford Motor...eliminate the dealer, just call 1-800-MUSTANG and get one?
The nature of audio is such that the vast majority must have a demo, they must experience the magic.

Many years ago in Nashville, TN. I demonstrated the Pipedreams Loudspeakers to a man who actually owned several auto dealerships, and was by any standards very wealthy. He only came in to the store because he was friends with the owner of the Pipedreams (Nearfield Acoustics) Company. After an hour of playing music, (Prayer with Andre and Celine or Brightman and Josh, he left the store with tears in his eyes, REALLY, saying that I had made him 'uncomfortable'. Well...I was stunned...I didn't get it.
A week later he came in with his wife and bought the speakers, for $30K full price. His wife called me aside and thanked me. I blinked, "For what, maam." (again confused).
"You changed my husband..., he was this, macho dude afraid of his emotions, and his experience led us to countless hours of talks he and I, Thanks."
I was really moved by that. I still to this day, shake my head.

"Music hath charm."

So, Grant, given the experience that most of us have had in audio stores, I don't blame ANYONE for being focused on price, because it's not very often that sales people out there do the job well enough to mitigate the price objection.
Least you think I am making a blanket, 'know it all' statement, I will tell you that, I made a living 'shopping and training audio sales people all over the country.' I know how elitist and condescending many in the audio stores act, therefore, chase the customers to price rather than value.

The answer to this whole thread is: what, people?

Larry
PS Good one Grant!

Are we audio nuts all dillitantes or are the sales people that inept?

Most audio nuts are dillitentes to varying degrees, and most sales people are inept (in my experience).

A lethal combination...in most instances.