Why no Tori Amos

Marco again I hear where you are coming from.

As part of the explination we need to look at the original post which was at least partly based in the media reaction to Tori or the lack of it that's perhaps why we've headed down this way.
I started off trying to put that question in context.

I think it's important to state I do not consider my opinion any more important than anyone else's,I truly believe that at a fundamental level.
Arguably it gets more complicated depending on how much you value how informed the person is making that argument.
This is one of the reasons I mostly stick to music threads on this forum because although I have opinions on cables,burn in etc. based on my experience it's clear to me it's less informed than more experienced audiophiles,of course I'll chip in if I think I've got a valid point to make.

Needless to say there is points made from time to time on various threads that seem uninformed,I think I got one on my records of the year,the person who was clearly intelligent really felt no need to qualify his statements (basically my musical taste was naff),in the same thread another 'goner whom I respect a lot said there was little he felt compelled to hear or like in my list.
What can you do?
Such is life,I can't get too precious about it all,all that matters to me is that I shared something positive inevitably you won't please everyone.
Audiogon is about opinion inevitably that will happen on all different kinds of levels.

As regards your stance on crticism intself I admire that stance,I take the same viewpoint that an opinion is only an opinon BUT I am totally at the other end of the spectrum regarding criticism,I read a lot of it,an awful lot of it (3 or 4 music mags every month and a constant stream of music related books etc.).
However I read it for knowledge and for information and I try hard to take it all with a large pinch of salt but I enjoy reading about music so I do it,I doubt it influences anything much that I listen other than letting me know it existed and that I read an opinion on it.
I also realise I'm quite unique,it's what floats my boat but it's clearly not for everyone.
And I really do not try to be snobbish about it,we are quite similar I think in that sense,music is only music.
Entertainment to some,art to others.

As regards your value system again I admire that stance but I cannot listen to music without evaluating it and of course that is personal.
Ultimately I decide in some sense the artists I take very seriously,the ones I enjoy in a light hearted sense,the music that seems 2nd rate,the overrated,the underrated etc.etc.
It doesn't matter much outside my own world nor do I expect it to.

To get away from this rambling I made this kind of assessment (rightly or wrongly)about Tori Amos a long time ago and since I'm opinonated and passionate about music I will voice that opinion because that is what these forums are about,debate.

I've maybe been a little unkind about Tori Amos with some of my descriptions but that's how I regard her,a talented quirky individual but that doesn't make it a fact.
Nor does the fact I spend too much time thinking and reading about music.
I apologise if I can you that impression that I consider myself superior.
However I will argue till the cows come home based on what I believe in.

Both of you Jax2, and Ben campbell make your points well. However Jax2, I do agree with Ben campbell that this site is about debate. Passionate fire-breathing debate when it comes to opinions on music/artists. To be a music lover you have to feel passionate about it.

Where I would, i think, agree with Jax2 to some extent is that I would criticize a piece of music or artist but not the person who posted the opinion I disagree with. I'm not saying that Ben campbell did that, he didn't.

I totally agree with frank discussion on the merits of individual artists/groups. In fact I like a good discussion/argument with other passionate people on music or artists. A personal philosophy is attack ideas not the person who delivers the message. This would be a boring site indeed if people didn't give honest opinions and criticism.

How is one to learn who is good or bad if people don't frankly discuss the merits. It is equally as valid to criticize as it is to praise. One cannot exist without the other or it would be pointless. Every artist or piece of music is not good.

If a person is honest, they would say their taste in music is good (the best?). That doesn't mean it is, but honestly when I think I'm right, I think I'm right. If you disagree your wrong. That doesn't mean I think I'm better than anyone. It's just my opinion. I am open to change or exploration if a good argument is presented. I have changed my views on artists before. Usually I've either grown up into liking their style of music, or they made something better. Sometimes someone even convinces me to give them a try.

Great conversation folks....thank you! Man, what a different approach we have Ben. The respect is mutual, yet I'm still struggling a bit to understand your perspective. I actively avoid reading criticism, especially about the arts. No, I'd put little to no weight at all on a person's knowledge and experience where judging music is concerned for the very reasons that have come up here. I don't consider myself necessarily well-read and up-to-date and so thoroughly educated regarding music as yourself and perhaps many others here, and that is a most deliberate choice on my part. Yet in no way would I let that stop me from sharing my opinion on a subject I am passionate about. The only way that knowledge and experience may pay a part in my respect for another's opinions about music, is if I knew the person had a history of appreciating similar things as I appreciate. Beyond that one's knowledge of musical history as well as having one's finger on the pulse of current trends and artists means absolutely nothing to me for the very reasons that I've already cited: None of that head-trip has anything whatsover to do MY appreciation of the experience of music.

The high-end hardware criticism is another matter altogether. There I would lend some credance to experience and knowledge as there is a far greater amount of objectivity mixed in with the tremendous subjectivity. In the judgement of the arts it is just the reverse, IMO. High-end gear is subject to so many variables in creating the synergy that makes the magic that, even if you had the best advice, the gear you purchase may not necessarily sound good to you in your room, to your ears, with your music. I would still think observations like "tubes blow SS away" to be patently ignorant and a sign of a lack of experience, lack of perspective, or both (and I'm not speaking about the literal content of that statement at all, but the essense of the statement, or perhaps the intent). However, as much as I read similar statements over and over here on A'gon, they do not bother me as much as the objections I've brought up here for some reason. I guess it just seems much more ridiculous to me to think one can objectively categorize music into "better and worse".

Some interesting observations Wildoats. I would however suggest that you determine for yourself what you prefer and need no one else to tell you - in fact, no one else can tell you what YOU think is good or bad. It is not something to be learned because it is entirely relative to the individual. On a far more simplistic and perhaps more objective scale, as I've pointed out: Someone with vast experience here on the Gon' who's been in this hobby many decades, reads all there is to read, has degrees in acoustical engineering, etc. can tell you what they know, and pass on what may seem like wisdom of great value, given their experience. They can tell you with certain assurity that Au24 speaker cables are the answer you've been looking for given your system and your preferences. You go out, find a pair at a good price, and set out to compare them to say the $90 pair you got from member "DIY555". To your ears, in your system, in your room, with your music, those DIY cables somehow sound better than the $800 pair of Au24's. Yet you were advised by an seasoned expert......what gives. It happens......all the time!! Now that's an example in an area with a certain degree of objectivity. Music has no such leaning.....appreciation of music is entirely subjective. There are no figures or graphs to be plotted, no statistics or numbers to look at, unless you care about popularity contests which I don't give a rat's ass about. Why the f%^$ would I need anyone advising me what is good and bad in something so subjective as music. Again, the only credance I may give such advice would be if I knew my tastes ran similar to the one advising me, but I'd still not lend any respect to statements like "Kate blows Tori away".

I'm going to have to think about this one some more as it is getting late.

Regards,

Marco

I can be satisfied with my gear because it sounds good to me. I can also audition other equipment if the need or desire arises. Mostly because I can listen to a large amount of very good equipment in a not too long of a time.

However, I need help with music. Not because I don't know what I like, but because there is so much out there. If I here mostly bad things about a piece, I'll go listen to the ones I hear mostly good things about. There just isn't time to listen to everything and there has to be a way to separate the wheat from the chaff. Other people's critiques help me do that. That is the main value I get from reading other peoples opinions. Without that I'm alone in the vast wilderness without a compass.

I agree, Wildoats; constructive criticism and comments about music can certainly provide some guideance in the vastness of what is out there. However what I was suggesting is that you need no one to tell you "Kate blows Tori away". Were you to follow such advice and just listen to only one, you'd be missing out on some very rich possibilites of musical enjoyment IMO. A compass is fine if you know how to use it , and where you are, and have some idea of where you may like to go. I would suggest that following advice to the nature of some of the criticism I've objected to in this thread would be not at all like using a compass, it would be like putting on a pair of blinders and being lead on a path like a donkey.

Regarding your equipment: Precisely! The point I was making there is that absolutely NO ONE can tell you what DOES sound good to you. ONLY YOU know that. What sounds good to me in gear may not sound at all good to you. If you put my speakers into your system, you may think I was nuts for listening to them, yet I think they sound wonderful. So again, what use would it be to follow my lead if I were to say "Horns are the only way to go as far as speakers are concerned", with the caveat that I've been in this hobby for twenty plus years. Following such advice on face-value is absurd. However I do believe, as I said, with the gear there is a greater degree of objectivity, so an educated guess may be more helpful than an "educated" guess in the realms of enjoying music (far more subjective IMO)

Marco