2. speakers
  3. 1211169304

Harshness in tweeters: the price of transparency?

Hi,

I can't help notice a correlation between ultimate tweeter transparency and having to put up with harshness at loud volume levels. It can be very transparent and smooth to an appreciable volume, bit exceed that and it will go harsh if you apply the materials necessary for max transparency in those drivers.

I owned titanium dome tweeters in Avalon Eclipse speakers that ultimately caused me a case of a decade-long bout with tinnitus from the titanium dome tweeters, even when using a smooth Music Reference RM-9 tube amp.

I then owned a pair of horns with lightweight metal compression driver diaphragms. Again, unbearable harshness at loud levels where the metal "breaks up".

I now own a pair of beryllium dome tweeeters in speakers that again are volume limited before that metallic glare and harshness comes in. When I had silk domes none of that happened to me, but the details and transparency are markedly down for those drivers at all volumes.

The most transparent drivers I heard were the best tweeter horns but at the cost of harshness. They exceeded electrostatics for dynamics and transparency and detail, but at that cost. Electrostatics seem to me to be the best compromise in midrange on up detail and smoothness but with a real decline in dynamics.

Maybe diamond is the answer with its extreme rigidity and hardness. But I'm not rich enough for that yet, and probably never will be.

What's the scoop on the best tweeters out there for all of what I'm asking for here, but at a reasonable price? One possibility that intrigues me is the ceramic tweeter, but again, I don't know and those are not cheap either.

I want to play horns and cymbals loud and clear, without that bite in my ear. Soft domes aren't enough for me, at least not the ones I've heard after hearing horns and beryllium.
ktstrain
tvad
9,467 posts
 
From Stereophile:
The Focal-JMlab Diva Utopia Be's ported enclosure was tuned to approximately 27Hz, with minimum impedance of 3.38 ohms at 100Hz. I would judge this speaker to be of average difficulty to drive for any amplifier comfortable with a 4 ohm load, and I would rate its nominal impedance at 4 ohms. The speaker's sensitivity measured approximately 87dB/2.83V/m.
Maybe this isn't your speaker?

The Redwine may be able to drive 4 ohms, many amps are, but that does not mean it doubles power into 4 ohms compared to its power into 8 ohms, and since Redwine does not publish the 4 ohm spec for the 30.2 there's no way to verify it. I recall Vinnie stating on another website that it did not. The Street dot com says this in their review:
The amp is capable of delivering 30 watts per channel into any speaker load from 4 to 16 ohms.
That's essentially what tube amps do...deliver the same power into various impedance loads, and it's why many tube amps don't sound right on speakers with wide impedance swings. 30 watts into 4 ohms produces fewer decibels than 30 watts into 8 ohms, thus perceived pronounced upper frequencies.

You have Voltage Paradigm speakers, and two Power Paradigm amplifiers. A mismatch. Ralph Karsten has a white paper on this topic here.

This is a moot point since you state you will not change amps.

So, perhaps a change to Power Paradigm speakers (like Devore, Coincident, Merlin, Audiokinesis...) will help get you closer to where you want to be.

Anyway, good luck.
kana813
956 posts
 
Ktstrain-

If you want to play horns and cymbals loud and clear, you need to follow Dcstep's example.

First, learn how to play trumpet.

Second, wait 40+ years to get a system that sounds good.

Next, get some small rear ported floor standing speakers with a laid-back tonal balance and woofers that are connected with inverted polarity, see:

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/506vienna/index4.html

Position these speakers very close to the wall behind them,
place a gigantic armoire in the center of the speakers,
and put a small reflective table directly in front of the left speaker. See:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1198908516

Finally, claim you've reduced Intermodulation Distorion using the "Sumiko's Master Set," without ever taking any measurements to confirm your claims.

Did I miss anything Dave?
tvad
9,467 posts
 
I noticed the speaker specs I copied into my post above were incorrect. These are yours, yes?

Micro Utopia Be 2-driver, 2-way, ported-box speaker
Drivers: 1" pure-beryllium inverted-dome tweeter, 6.5" W-cone woofer
Frequency response: 50Hz–40kHz, +/-3dB
Sensitivity: 89dB/2.83V/m
Impedance: 8ohm nominal, 5ohm minimum
Crossover frequency: 2.5kHz, 24dB/octave
Maximum power handling: 100W (musical program)
Dimensions: 16.7" x 9.8" x 15" (HxWxD)
Weight: 38.5 lbs
Price: $6000/pair

5 ohms minimum impedance, as you said.

The Stereophile measurement specs I listed were for the Diva Utopia Be, which is a different model from yours.

Just wanted to correct the error.
ngjockey
1,042 posts
 
Seems to me like Kurt is a candidate for some Selah line arrays with lots of ribbon tweeters. No affiliation. In fact, I've never even heard them but I know they'll handle SPL's and dynamics beyond his imagination. If you want concert bass with that, ask about the Incredarrays or custom built.
shadorne's avatar
Ag insider logo xs@2x
shadorne
7,333 posts
 
It's a harsh ringing tone of dome break-up sound, not hard clipping hash or soft clipping hash.

Like I said light rigid materials all tend to ring like a bell.
More to discover