speakers for classical music

Dcstep, until you have heard all the tube amps in the world its hard to say that they all sound the same isn't it? That was all I was trying to get across, not that tubes are inherently superior.

Of course I do believe in what I am doing. Making tube amps for a living is not the easiest way to make a buck- I don't do this for the money, I do it because I like it.

I also am convinced that someday it will be possible to do as well with solid state what I am able to do with tubes. The access to this is understanding the rules of human hearing and creating a solid state amplifier that obeys those rules. Right now there might one or two solid state amplifiers that are really successful with that. Both of them have limited power, the biggest being the Ridley Audio amp which makes 100 watts.

So- making really musical power is hard. So if you want to reproduce classical, which has the widest dynamic range of any musical form (generally speaking), you need a speaker that will be easy to drive. 20db BTW is a 100:1 difference in power.

The CAR is all of that and with a 60 watt amp you will not need a subwoofer and in most rooms you will not be able to clip the amp either. Plus it is as revealing as anything out there including the best ESLs, so if anyone wonders why they should care? -that's why. I own them but I don't sell them.

If your speaker is only 90 db, you will not be able to reproduce an orchestra at life-like levels. A live orchestra can reach 115db peaks BTW. Most speakers and electronics would be too oppressive at those levels to be tolerable, and the vast majority would be lucky to get within 10db. Most people are happy with 95db; imagine not ever having to think about even coming close to clipping the amp. Taking advantage of tubes' softer clipping is not a good idea in audio, although that works great for electric guitars!

I don't think tube vs transistor discussions are useful because I have come to understand that the conversation is never about that. Take a look again at the link that Duke and I posted earlier, yes its on my website, no, its not actually some sort of marketing thing, its simply the way audio has turned out. Astute readers will see that it generates an access to making a solid state amp that conforms to the rules of human hearing as well as tubes; the discussion of tubes/transistors is the same as objectivist/subjectivist.

"until you have heard all the tube amps in the world its hard to say that they all sound the same isn't it?"

Very true, a premature induction step is a dangerous thing. . . likewise, unless you have heard all SS amps. .

We are all cooking in this audio kitchen, I have tried SS chip amps with horns and it was very good actually, the one I tried (have) is DIY but I guess a more refined amp could do very well, a very close friend has the Avantgarde Duos also and just changed from a class A PP Jadis amp to a Meishu SE Audionote, on his system this change was very good I was with him during the AB comparison stage, both amps there...on my system PP class A tube amp (Leak TL12.1) sounded much much better that AN P4 go figure...
There is a big horn guy I emailed with in South Africa who is using Pass First watt amps for midbass and tweeter....but for mids he still uses SE tubes.

A live orchestra can reach 115db peaks BTW. Most speakers and electronics would be too oppressive at those levels to be tolerable, and the vast majority would be lucky to get within 10db

Agreed and distortion is the primary reason why it sounds oppresive on most systems. My experience is they just sound dull and boomy and unpleasant - so you turn it down.

Since distortion is perceived as loudness most systems will sound perceptively way too loud long before they reach realistic sound levels/dynamics.

I think Dgad is on the right track to getting those 115 db SPL peaks or "Barks" as someone called it.

Whatever he chooses it will almost certainly require large bass woofers (possibly even a multitude of 12" + bad boys), absolutely massive cabinets and coupled with either a compression horn mid/mid bass or an extremely high ouput dynamic midrange driver (or a pair of them on each speaker). And all using pro type drivers that dissipate the heat rapidly and compress only 1 or 2 db rather than the usual 6 db or more that you get from Scan drivers...

Have Fun!

06-11-08: Atmasphere said:
"Dcstep, until you have heard all the tube amps in the world its hard to say that they all sound the same isn't it? That was all I was trying to get across, not that tubes are inherently superior."

Well friend, (I consider this a friendly discussion, BTW)it's hard to listen to more than a few tube amplifiers without concluding that each sounds more different than alike.

Unfortunately tube amps get a bad name because many seem to be designed to color the meet some "need", such as lack of transparency or soft highs or rounded lows. I know that doesn't need to be the case, but many audiophiles think that's the right path. I'm fine with them taking that path.

I'm about transparency, accuracy and clarity with controlled lows and sweet (but accurate) highs. If the source has a nasty edge, then let that nasty edge through. (In this digital age it can be very hard to get a source that doesn't add hardness and I understand why that steers some away from SS). Fortunately for me, I can afford smooth, stress free sources.

The speakers that I tend to be drawn to need relatively high power and high damping (or driver control) capacity (I didn't say damping factor, so don't launch into that lame arguement) so, it's easy to see why I'm drawn to high powered, extremely quite, SS amps.

You can write all the papers you want, and I appreciate that you do that as I do indeed read them and add them to my store of knowledge and concepts, but I make my audio buying decisions with my ears. I like what I've found in SS and if my amplifier isn't on your list of approved SS devices, I could care less.

BTW, the dynamic range that I experience in my listening seat is around 65dB to 110dB. My speakers are properly placed (thank you Sumiko Master Set) so that IM Distortion is minimized and the system stays musical within that range. This is VERY IMPORTANT because minimizing IM distortion has a big impact on the perceived sound and loudness in the listening position. Before alignment I was listening several dB lower, avoiding "shout" and hardness that IMD manifests itself in. Whether the amp is tubes or SS is irrelevant in regards to this issue, assuming it's not generate IMD.

The OP wanted a speaker that worked well for classical music. I think that got answered with a nice variety of options. I'm not sure why we're talking about tubes however, but we are. I'm not anti-tube BTW. My favorite guitar amp (except for gigs were it does a poor job of giving me both the tone I want and the volume I need) is tubed and my headphone amp is tubed. I bought them because they sounded good in those applications, not because I need tubes. (BTW, on gigs I get a great replication of tube amp with a mix of Class D amplification and a multi-effects device that'll give me the sound I need from 20dB to 120dB}.

Dave