A Perennial Debate For Which I Seek Help

Baroque lover, like you I am very sceptical about a lot of cable pricing in terms of value for money. I can understand why some cables might cost more. They may be hand made in small batches. Ot they may use exotic/expensive materials. However, for most cables this is not the case. Any audio retailer will tell you that cables are high margin items. That's why the big box stores push them so much, to add some profit to the low margin TV or CD player they are selling.

As to the value of the cable in improving the system. I think a distinction has to be made between a cable making a "difference" and a cable producing an "improvement". A difference is not necessarily an improvement. I think many cables produce differences, but not always improvements. Certainly, many people will swear up and down that a certain cable imnproved their system. I think this can be true. A cable can compensate and mate with what it is attached to in the same way that a component can mate well, or not so well, with another component. But I would expect cable improvements to be more subtle since there are fewer variables to work with when changing a cable as opposed to an entire component.

And if you do a good job inside like Totem, there is little to compensate for with an extenal cable, which was the point I was suggesting in my original comment. In this circumstance, cable changes are more likely to produce "differences", but not "improvements". Or if it is an "improvement", it is an improvement in terms of the person's personal taste, and not in an absolute sense.

I am always surprised that one of my favourite manufacturers, who make some extrememly expensive stuff, don't seem to give much of a rat's tail about cables. All they recommend is a good quality 4 mm multi stranded copper cable. They don't seem to have any regard for all of the exotic material and construction (and marketing) that's behind a lot of expensive cables.

I'm not wealthy enough to experiment with a lot of cable changes anyways. So if my thought are wrong, I remain happy in my ignorance. I feel no need to change anything.

As for connectors, they seem to be a necessary evil, like cables, unless you have all of your components hard wired together. I don't think bare wires by themselves produce a strong enough conenction.

Nycwine1 -- to return to your question, yes -- if the terminations are iffy, it will affect the sound.
SO, do solder solidly those driver terminations. If you wish to change the internal wire, try single core, thicker for the woofer than the tweet; do not forget to twist the new internal wire!
On the bright side, better (i.e. low tolerance) components on the xover do make a difference of course.

I talked to Richard Vandrsteen about this wire issue. He uses specific wire for specific applications. A particular wire to connect the crossover to the tweeter as an example has different properties than the wire from the crossover to the midrange, because of the different frequencies handled, and the different power requirements, etc. On another thought, I built my power cables. I first used the best quality plugs and cables I could get from a professional electrical supply house...they sounded very good. I then changed the plugs to audio grade plugs from a high end audio vendor...a very great upgrade. I then put the plugs on bulk wire from the same hi end vendor. The results were that the plugs made the biggest difference, but that the changeout of the wire produced a much less but still significant improvement.

I also upgraded the crossovers in my speakers.Some of the
parts i replaced were very cheap. The upgrade made the speakers a lot cleaner, and I mean a lot.
As with your connection question,why would a well known speaker builder go to the trouble to make sure the cabinets
and drivers are just right and skip on the internal parts?
I guess they don't expect anyone to open them up.

Markphd, I assumed you would return with such a response. I need not have an identical agent internally and externally to make my point.

Pray tell precisely HOW the components on the INside of a speaker will improve the cabling running TO the speaker from the OUTside? It can't. To assume that if the INternals of the speaker are superior the EXternal link is less critical, or need not be improved is flawed logic. The only way this logic is sustained is if the external cabling's efficacy is largely written off. I assumed you had taken that position, and it appears that you confirmed it in your last post.

In fact the better the speaker is constructed (assuming that performance will follow), like a fine race car (with high performance engine) the more critical the external cabling (like tires) is, if one is to achieve the best performance. In this particular case, the external cables become more important as the performance of the speaker rises, since the speaker will reveal the quality (or lack of it)of the speaker cables, ICs and PCs. (I could alternatively suggest the higher performing speaker would reveal superior synergy between components, or the lack of it.)

You seem to fall prey to the faulty conclusion that if the component is made well enough, the wire leading to it is negligible. Wrong. In a system every part is critical. Any element which deals with electricity and the signal are equally important. You first post here simply dismisses (or downgrades the importance of) the external element - the cable. That's a huge mistake. The statement, "If the inside was done really well, there wouldn't be anything to improve upon by changing the outside wires," shows ignorance on the subject.

It is inconsist to suggest that futzing with speaker components internally will yield improvements, but that the wire externally is negligible. The reason you have reached this conclusion, it appears, is that you have a limited budget, or in principle do not want to spend a lot on cables. (I am not judging you; I do not know your financial situation. However, you seem to make it clear that money is a major influence on building your system.)

You seem to speak authoritatively with(it appears)little experience. You say, "But I would expect cable improvements to be more subtle since there are fewer variables to work with when changing a cable as opposed to an entire component," and "I'm not wealthy enough to experiment with a lot of cable changes anyways. So if my thought are wrong, I remain happy in my ignorance. I feel no need to change anything." Those are the words of an intellectually stubborn man.

In other words you have nothing to offer other than your logic. No experience, no direct comparisons, just a judgment. You seem to dismiss cables as less important because they are not as complex as box components). Which is more critical, the brain or the artery? For the circulatory system to operate at its optimum both must be functioning at a high level, even though it might be argued that one is more complex than the other. Similarly, both the "brain" (components) and the "arteries" (cables) in the audio system must be of a high level to assure optimum performance. I think the illustration is clear. You may disagree, but if it is without experience in matters of testing/comparing cables, then you have nothing other than your assumption and (in my opinion)faulty conclusion.

I agree with you on this point, that the distinctions between cables are subjective. However, with fine equipment and in an excellent listening environment the changes often are anything but subtle. Pricing is going to be every man's own issue; I have on the whole found that cheap cables sound cheap. Not exclusively, but many times you do get what you pay for, and of course, different brands may offer better bang for the buck.

Recently I visited an audiophile nearby. He had AntiCables throughout his rig. He was not satisfied with the sound of the rig. I brought over one pair of Wire World (I wrote the review on Equinox 5 Squared cables for Dagogo.com) ICs, and after a moderate length listening session put them in. The difference was shocking, even for me. He immediately began asking for information on obtaining them. I heard the difference clearly in two seconds, and it took less than a minute for me to conclude that (at least in that system) AntiCables do not sound good to my ear. They left a huge amount of information behind which did not get transmitted through the speakers. Based on that experience I likely would not use them in any of my rigs, as I would be gutting the system's performance. On economical rigs their effect would likely be less noticeable.

If you have a lower end rig (I never dismiss or disrespect persons who have a limited budget, and have equipment at a modest price point. What gets me upset is when they try to dictate what can happen using gear at the higher end of the spectrum) you will likely feel justified in your conclusion because you have not heard such differences. If that is the case, you need to realize that your experience does not preclude others from experiencing extremely significant/important benefits from cabling leading TO the speakers.

You are an intelligent man, and think things out well. However, in this case I believe that experience would impact your perceptions and conclusion. :)