1. Home
  2. speakers
  3. 1253598014

Dream speakers and amp for an 11x14 room?

Hi All,

I'm a first-time poster and hate to present an idiosyncratic problem, but I'm getting the impression that the devil is in the details when it comes to high-end audio, so here goes:

I've got an 11x14 living room that serves as a home theater, and currently have a great video projector that I'd like to mate with a top-notch two-channel set up (I've been persuaded to give up on the 5.1 surround idea). My dream is to have a system that's capable of everything - from running quick, delicate, joyful circles around Beethoven's middle quartets to disgorging "Led Zeppelin I" with a massive, terrifying soundstage.

I was initially hell-bent on floorstanding speakers - I've never shopped high-end audio until now, and remember the big floorstanders my father had back in the 80s, with 12-inch woofers powered by a big, late-70s solid-state Scott amp. The Gallo 3.1 were one idea, as well as the FJ (Blumenohofer) Oms. Both of those models attracted me partly because of their wide soundstage and sweet spot (the latter unfortunately lacking in a few other models that have attracted my interest, including the Devore 8s and 9s).

But while I've been impressed during a few recent auditions by the floorstanders, and hate the tiny little images thrown by most bookshelves, the more I read the more it seems that such bigger speakers may be a bad idea for the room in question - I don't have room to be placing speakers three feet away from the wall - two is even a stretch.

A couple of other key constraints: The speakers basically have to fit under the 6 1/2-foot-wide movie screen, whose bottom edge hangs 38 inches from the floor. That's because the screen pulls down alongside the left side of this "front" wall, while immediately to the right of the screen a bedroom door is cut into the wall.

It should be noted that this front wall is of a cheap, hollow construction - courtesy of an enterprising landlord who moved to convert my apartment into a two-bedroom - and I worry that will be a factor when it comes to bass. There's also another bedroom door - immediately to the right of and at a right angle to the first, so as to form a kind of 90-degree void to the right of where the right speaker would be placed.

Opposite this front wall, 14 feet away, is a double-door that opens into a kitchen that's about 10x11. Through all of this, the ceiling height is about 7 1/2 feet and the floors are hardwoods with a few oriental rugs available if necessary.

Now, as a stopgap, I've installed a cheap 5.1 surround system, with a right bookshelf and a center speaker under the movie screen, and a left bookshelf speaker sitting - yes, that's right - in the back corner of a bookshelf that's built into the left wall. This latter speaker seems to have trouble generating a lot of sound, given the few precious inches of space behind it. I've also got a powered subwoofer on the floor under the movie screen.

So given all that data, I guess the first key question is - are there bookshelf speakers, a center and a woofer that could take the places of the cheap ones and sing, despite the lack of space behind them? I really wouldn't want to place them, or any corresponding subwoofer, more than 6 inches to a foot away from the wall (or a few inches from the back corner of the bookshelf, in the case of the left side).

And the second question would be - provided I'm willing to move the easy chair that's in the left corner under the movie screen - is there a pair of floorstanders, preferably less than 36 inches high, much less 38, that could deliver what I'm looking for in terms of sound, given the fact that they'd basically need to be as close as 4 feet together, with one about two feet from the left side wall and the other with a couple of doorways off to its right and back right?

For those of you who have gotten this far and still have a clue as to what I'm getting at, I am both grateful and impressed. Please let me know what information I can provide to clarify the situation. I'm looking to pay up to $3000 or so for a used pair of speakers, probably the same for a used amp. Interested in everything from solid-state to SETs - but seems like I should concentrate on this speaker question first.

Thanks!
coverto
knownothing
1,298 posts
 
Agree that Dynaudios can sound wonderful with moderate wattage tube amps - but more good juice can't hurt either.

Before we go onto amps - don't forget a quality source, or you will be at risk of G.I.G.O.

The amps you list are fine. Lots of power is not a problem in a small space per say, and will provide lots of dynamic head room for transients even when barely idling. But you will be paying for capacity that you may not ever use in current application. You may be better off from a sound quality standpoint to pay for more expensive internal parts in a lower output amp.

Here are a couple of threads with (my) former amp recommendations for your consideration:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1198185645&openusid&zzKnownothing&4&5#Knownothing

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1249063069&openusid&zzKnownothing&4&5#Knownothing

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1248817465&openusid&zzKnownothing&4&5#Knownothing
coverto OP
44 posts
 
Knownothing - "You may be better off from a sound quality standpoint to pay for more expensive internal parts in a lower output amp." This is exactly what I'd been thinking and I took a look at the links you posted. You mention Ayre and Naim, but it's not my understanding that those brands have more expensive internal parts than McIntosh, or some of the other big integrateds?
knownothing
1,298 posts
 
Coverto,

It is a combination of good parts, and how you put them together. McIntosh is a safe bet - my dad had a Mac amp that lasted him 30 years of trouble free service. And many people love Krell's accuracy and authority.

But the proof is in the pudding, or the listening in this case. I just find Naim and Ayre (or SimAudio Moon, or Blue Circle, or Pathos, or Plinius, or Unison, or Musical Fidelity, or other well-made but less well known brands) sound more interesting and engaging to me. If you don't have a giant room to fill or are not focused only on the huge dynamic swings of home theater as your goal, I just think you can do better for music reproduction than a big Mac or Krell for the money.

I suggest you get out and listen to some of these amps in combination with the speakers listed and others to hear what floats your boat. We can point you in some directions, but you ultimately navigate these waters with your ears and your pocketbook.

One last thing (again) - don't forget the importance of a good source. See the latest column by Sam Tellig in Stereophile (Vol. 32, No. 10) where he "waxes" enthusiastic about the new NAD C 375BEE Integrated amp, and then points out the importance of a good CD player to make it really sing. Based on his evaluation, you may want to add this $1300 amp to your list for audition.
coverto OP
44 posts
 
All - just an update that I've done some research in the past couple of weeks, and the Ohms are the front runner at this point (just can't get excited about monitors, for some reason). I talked to John Strobheen who actually recommended that I go with the 1000s instead of the Micro Talls, which he said would give me an extra octave or so of bass to play with.

John mentioned in particular that the two doors in my room that would open to the back and side of the left speaker could make the bass sound thin on that side if left ajar, which frankly makes me wonder whether I shouldn't still be considering some more traditional front firers?

Also, given that the 1000s are bringing me up to the $2000 level, it has me wondering whether there wouldn't be superior alternatives on the used market in that price neighborhood. Again, one key requirement is that they be no more than 38 inches tall (and 36 or even 34 would be much, much better...)

The thing is, I do really like the idea of the huge, open airy soundstage supposedly thrown by the Ohms, and not having to worry about a tiny sweet spot in the middle of the room where nobody will be sitting. I had a chance to audition some Gallo 3.1 semi-omnidirectionals recently and was struck how boxed-in and congested other speakers, including Dalis, Viennas, B&Ws and even Meridians sounded by comparison.

(Yes, I'm still sort of interested in the Gallo 3.1s, although I didn't like the fact that the whole picture changed dramatically when you stood up from your chair, and I've been warned to worry about how the side-firing woofers would fare in my smallish room.)

I've heard that Green Mountains might fit the bill - that they are relatively easy to place (another key need), although they would obviously take me closer to the $3000 level used.

One last key point in favor of the Ohms is that they, like Green Mountains, would apparently have good synergy with Blue Circle, which is the front runner for the integrated amp I'm eyeing and which uses the Walsh drivers for its own Penny speakers.

Thanks again for all the help, it is much appreciated!
audiokinesis
1,872 posts
 
Coverto, one thing you might want to be aware of is that the ear/brain system reacts differently to early-arriving reflections relative to late-arriving ones. Briefly, early-arriving reflections tend to cause coloration, while late-arriving reflections tend to add richness and liveliness to the sound (assuming they're spectrally similar to the first-arrival sound). A fuzzy dividing line between "early" and "late" reflections would be at about 10 milliseconds, roughly corresponding to a path length of 10 feet.

So what I suggest is that you take a look at the radiation pattern of the speakers you're considering, and take a look at where you plan to place them. Measure the distance from the speakers to the center of the listening area, and then look for reflection paths that will give you a path length difference of ten feet or less relative to the direct sound.

The floor bounce is virtually inevitable, as is the ceiling bounce in most cases. How about the sidewalls? Some speakers will give you a stronger sidewall reflection than others. How about the wall behind the speakers? Dipole and omni owners usually try to pull their speakers a good five feet or so out from the wall; or if that's not feasible they often diffuse or absorb the backwave energy.

Different types of speakers are appropriate for different room and setup situations. In my opinion, it's a good idea to minimize early-arrival reflections within reason while preserving the energy of late-arriving reflections by not overdamping the room.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer
More to discover