Anyone with a high-end home theater sans sub?

Flrnlamb -
No, not talking about gay porn here, please don't take offense at my question. Just wondering because there were a couple of very lively and informative threads on the 'Gon several months ago regarding proper bass management for home theater and "Exertfluffer" had lots to say on the subject.

The info/opinions and style of the writing by that author is very similar to your posts here. For example, check out a thread started on 12/31/04 titled "Too many speakers for theater?". The response from Exertfluffer on 1/02/05 sounds almost exactly like your posts above. Just wondering if you had changed your Audiogon handle.. no big deal.. and if that wasn't you, the coincidence is very interesting. JZ

Huh?...who dat?...who der?...dat you mama???
Sorry, wrong person.

Flrnlamb said: "YES, EVEN A PAIR OF OLD DEFINITIVE BP2000'S WITH 15" 1000WATT ACTIVE AMPS DRIVING THE BASS, WILL STOMP ANY WILSON GRAND SLAM, JM LABS UTOPIA FULL RANGE, or anything else you can think of that's passive, even being driven by, YES, Bolder 1000watt monos!!!!!...graantee it, every time!!"

Nothing could be further from the truth. The active subwoofer section of a Definitive BP-anything is not capable of high-end bass reproduction any more than Flrnlamb is capable of writing a respectful, modest, or believable description of his own knowledge on the subject.

Most powered subwoofers like the Definitive (and actually 99% of powered subwoofers) are incapable of the kind of accuracy, control, lack of boom or overhang, and integration that defines high-end sound. I would argue that systems which contain state-of-the-art amplification driving very accurate full range speakers are far superior in every qualitative way to all but the very rarest few powered woofers. By telling your surround unit to route the LFE information to the much more accurate main front channels, which are in turn being driven by a far superior amplifier, the result his high-end bass.

The vast majority of active subwoofers can, when dialed up to exagerated levels, provide much more bass quantity, but very poor bass quality.

Well, another "arm-chair quarterback" audiopile has spoken here! I respect your input Waldner123, but Lucas film, THX and anyone who's built high end custom theaters will dissagree with you!
BTW, (and I already know the answer), since this topic is about "high end theaters", how many high end custom HT's have you do professionally, or otherwise?
Oh wait!...No need to answer...I already know the answer. And so does everyone here listning!...lol

"Nothing could be further from the truth. The active subwoofer section of a Definitive BP-anything is not capable of high-end bass reproduction..." (Waldner123)

"Most powered subwoofers like the Definitive (and actually 99% of powered subwoofers) are incapable of the kind of accuracy, control, lack of boom or overhang, and integration that defines high-end sound. I would argue that systems which contain state-of-the-art amplification driving very accurate full range speakers are far superior in every qualitative way to all but the very rarest few powered woofers. By telling your surround unit to route the LFE information to the much more accurate main front channels, which are in turn being driven by a far superior amplifier, the result his high-end bass."(Walnder123)

"Folks FOR A HIGH END HOME THEATE, what Waldner said, is WAY OFF BASE!!
I've sold Wilson's right off the floor for a living, and have driven Wilson WATT PUPPIES with the likes of Pass Labs X1000's, Krell FPB 600's, Theta Dreadnaughts (400w/ch), $30K NERO Mono's, and more!!!! What Waldner123 is stating is WRONG WRONG WRONG! We're talking about movie playback capability here, not typical music bass output!...HUGE DIFFERENCE! There's WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between the dynamic output of DD/DTS and 16/44 digital music or analog!!! DD/DTS is about 5x's more potent and demanding in the bass than most any music content!
Yes, your audiophile speakes like Wilson Grand Slams, JM Utopias, etc, have tighly tuned "high Q" bass response,which "holds together for modest music dubties", granted But that all goes right out the window when dynamic movie material hits em!!! passive crossovers just suck the control right out of the drivers, they bottom out, distort, get blown, flatten, and just plain fall apart!! Been there, done that...It doesn't work.
If you listen at a "flee's volume", and don't mind dynamicially constrained and "untransparent" sound from your bass on movies, PLEASE run your Wilson's and others full range for movies!.
And while a Powered bass speaker like the Deftech 2000's I menitioned might rate a 9/10 for bass speed and acuracy through out, and the Wilson's get a 10/10, the fact is the Wilson's will fall apart and get a 4/10 for THX playback full range bass info, and the DEFTECH'S get a 10/10 here!!!
Audiophiles who've done 2 channel for a million years will argue this point to no end!...but then they don't do HT for a living. They tinker with tubes and turntables. Who you gunna believe?
Yes, a good powered commercial subwoofer (Paradigm Servo 15, M&K MX5000, Rel B15, etc) needs to be properly integrated, placed, phased, level matched, calibrated, EQ'd, whatever to work right. But that's still far more ultimately effective for handling movie bass than the passively controlled,relatively inefficient woofer config in a full range audiophile speaker!!!
yeah, they sound fast for dynamically limited music material, but that's about it. And even at that, try rap, techo, hard rock, heavy metal, dynamic "world beat" music, etc through some Wilson WATTPUPPIES or JM Utopias, and see what you get! You'll be wantin' your $20-30k refunded back, like, IMMEDIATELY!!!
I've been around high end for 20 years plus, and have done hundreds of custom jobs. Sold, it all! Believe me, if it was what Waldner said, I'd be doing it that way, for sure....but it ain't, sorry.
Lucas Film spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours, and millions of dollars getting this stuff right for the home. Waldner, I'm sure you could show em a thing or two about HT..why don't you petition them to change their standards around. Oh, and BTW, send em your resume while you're at it...lol

Whew. sombody pushed a button. I can live without a sub, although I recently listened to a supercube and I did like it......