Anyone with a high-end home theater sans sub?

I have a highend H.T setup which I have run both ways.I use B+W 801s for mains.I can tell you a good sub still makes a huge difference.I am using a paradigm servo 15 and an Anthem D1 pre/pro.You can spend alot more for a sub but I doubt you will get any better.I am not saying it is the best but it is certainly one of the best.IMHO

Yes you can have a 7.0 system that rocks on movies, and music especially if you own Hybrid type or completely active speakers. All Passive guys will need some serious power to overcome the disadvantages of a passive design, no matter who makes the speakers.

A subwoofer would be an improvement to nearly anyone's system though, mainly due to the fact that where a speaker sounds good for midrange performance is most likely not the same spot for the best bass, even with five to seven bass sources. And the obvious, .1 is a subwoofer channel designed to run to a sub with its own volume controls etc.. so distributing the .1 channel does cut down on some flexibility in setup.

Perfect-Ideal-competent-adequate-good enough all subjective terms, subwoofers in a properly designed system dissappear and become one with the Satellite speakers, especially in surround systems. Even if the Satellites are capable of incredible bass output, a Sub can help merely by increasing dynamic range and better room response/ integration. BUT! your system can still kick butt without a sub.

Reality Check------

This thread is a clear example of how misunderstood multichannel sound is to the average home user, and the dealers who try to put together the systems for them.

Walnder and Aroc with just crazy presumptions about movie sound and center channels and subwoofer quality. Most of my "theaters" sound better (playing music from CD in PLII) than the pathetic I mean carefully crafted "audiophile" systems I hear in people's homes. Multi-channel is something you can't slap together like a 2 channel system and call it art like we seem to do here on audiogon. It requires and understanding of how the components work, and interact and this cannot be done by "feel". Either you know it or you don't. Clearly by your "opinions" and funny statements you have not take the time to get aquainted with these design parameters. Thus you're trapped with what you know. And unwittingly have joined the "Chadnliz Theater Philosophy Club" the motto, "Loud, Proud and Wrong"

Sorry for you both, I am

I actually agree with much of what you have said Cinematic. At the performance level of most systems, a good powered subwoofer makes a huge difference in the enjoyment of the movie experience. I was only responding to some of the over-the-top and condescending comments made by Flrnlamb in a couple of his posts prior to my joining the thread. He was so rude and full of himself without having a leg to stand on that I felt compelled to give him a few jabs.

But just so I am not misunderstood, at the very highest-end of audio and home theater (the state-of-the-art), having a mediocre powered subwoofer (like the one mentioned in Flrnlamb's example) will actually make the system sound worse than it would without it. A Definitive powered subwoofer will not even come close to sounding as good in the bass as pair of big Wilson speakers driven by a Boulder 1000 watt amplifier. My comments were in reference to that ludicrous example specifically. But yes, in the real world of much more affordable components, the same powered sub can be a wonderful thing. The same applies to my comments about a center channel sometimes making worse sound than the much better quality mains could.

Also, you shouldn't assume that a good understanding and of what some consider "wacky expensive" audiophile systems precludes an equally good understanding of multichannel home theater systems. I actually love both, and believe that many who are home theater enthusiasts could benefit from some audiophile experience.

Simply assuming that almost any powered sub, speaker and crossover combination can work and blend well is setting the bar too low. THX requirements are also setting the bar way to low. There really is a reason that not a single respected high-end loudspeaker manufacturer chooses to pay the fees to have a THX logo on their speaker systems. Having to meet the THX requirements wouldn’t just dumb down a loudspeaker, it would render it incapable of making natural and realistic sound.

While theater systems are different from two channel audio systems in a few ways, most obviously in the number of speakers, they require the same techniques and understanding of what makes each channel sound good and natural, and to get each channel to blend and image with the other channels in the system. Your equipment and loudspeakers have no idea what the difference is between a movie soundtrack and a music recording. Their job is to accurately reproduce the input signal as best they can. Because of this, the best foundation for a great theater system is a great two-channel audio system and the people who tend to achieve the best sound are those who have significant experience in high-end two-channel audio.

Oh, here we go again!!!...
First off Waldner, I NEVER MENTIONED A DEFINITIVE SUBWOOFER!!! What I did mention, was the POWERED 500-1000WATT SUBS BUILT INTO (huge difference)a pair of properly integrated Def Tech BP2000/2000tl's (and do a fine job I might add, compared to 99% of the separate powered sub setup jobs most people end up with in their "ill-setup" and ill-conceived sub/sat systems, cause they can't setup/place the darn sub right anyway!!!). (even though that's the way to do it, and offeres the best flexibility)
I've had these Def Tech speakers in a couple of stores, and many many setup's, and they're still most of the way there, bass-wise, to some passive Wilson woofers in the WATT PUPPIES!, yes! There's simply better control pottential in the active woofers from the Def's, properly setup, yes! Still, granted, maybe a smidge more tightness and speed, better damping, whatever, from the better higher end driver Wilson's, sure. Still, get the movies and heavy dynamic stuff rolling full range, and the Def's (bass dynamics-wise)walk away from the Wilson's, which you can bottom out, distort, etc...I know, I've done em on NUMBEROUS OCCASIONS! Not so with practical applications of the PB2000's.
Now I'm basically correcting Walden (who'm I love to chastice, criticize, and basically despise for no apparant reason...lol!), who likes to take what I say, and put words in my mouth, twist things all around, show how much he DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT world class home theater, or even addequate home theater, cause he's in love with his two speakers, that are not capable, full range of doing HT properly, this I know!!!!
Case in point, even though I don't own or promote Def Tech, I still know the old active woofer designs they made are powerful enough for super strong bass dynamics, unlike most full range passive speakers for the home.
Still, as Waldner123 MIS-STATED, I never said anything about an individual Def Tech sub!, not once!!!
Yeah, and for the record, I've used and promoted 2 channel plus a sub (2.1) for many many setups, including my own! Yes, it can be done well.
I just like to chose up sides, get obnoxious, and pick on wiennies like Waldner123, for no apparant reason...mostly cause I can't do it on the job...lol
Oh, and Walden? I'm not in the slightest bit interested in sharing my resume with someone who'd never buy from anyone but the used-gear market on the net anyway! You're in your own little 2 channel closet world anyway...no one on the plannet could sell to these guy's anyway.
I could sit here, expound the most profound and meaningful b.s, about this stuff out there, convince everyone here about how to setup the absolute stone cold best, world class setup's, and it would make no difference to my bottom line!!! This is NOT a place/market for selling! It's a chat room for DIY'ers! I sell to "Joe-blow" off the street, who's not a "tinkerer". Wisely, my customer get's my experience, and world class.
Why sell Honda's to working stiff's all day, when you can sell Lexus's to the white colar crowd?! That's my moto...location is everything I've once heard...and this is "ear-candy central!"
Enjoy all the free advice you moochers!...lol

Cinematic? I think Waldner123 likes you!!!! That's hot!... (Paris Hilton)...lol

This cracks me up actually. Waldner?...if we all come over and play some heavy metal, bass-destroying heavy percussion, bass-laden world-beat music, some rap, serious Techno music from the clubs, and some "dino-romp" heavy DD/DTS tracks through your KILLER 2 channel setup, we're all gunna be mighty impressed, right!?!!!!
I just wanna be sure, so we know what to bring...muuuuuuahahaaaaahhahahaahahaha!!!!
Yeah, that's right, It's all very funny, and I've seen/heard it a million times. So so so so so many of the 2 channel "full range" HT-setup guy's think that they got the end-all-be-all HT system, running dirrectly from their dvd player, into their $10,000,000 preamp and $2000 amp combo, and they think it's the chiznit!!!
Well, ok, but it's just not, really!!
yeah, the audiophile speakers are nice and clear, and pretty, and delicately detailed, on a low-level-dynamics scheme of things kinda way. Personally, we need those attributes from a speaker system, to be true, yes. But in terms of large scale macro dynamics, and an acutal mico-dynamic's perspective for REAL PRESSENCE AND INPACT, they are mostly SERIOUSLY LACKING!!!! Yes, it can be "ok", but that's about it. Don't expect to blow the pants off anyone with your StarWars Demo like this, any time soon. They get better at the local cinema, believe it!
The sad truth, dynamically, and I've said it a million times, is that, ESPECIALLY going the 2 channel full range passive (sans subwoofer)(especially sans the pre/pro) route, is not very powerful, like intended. Dynamically, we're talking a serious lack of dynamic transparancy, realism, impact, and emotion! Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy!!!
If you don't think so, just go down to the local Sam Ash store, and pick up some moderate, even passive designed, "pro audio" speakers, that have little problem dishing out real dynamics! MOstly we're talking a complete dynamic thrashing of what's on the home market! You get into larger versions, and active speakers, and the price of an "E-ticket" dynamic ride just got very interesting!!!!
All I'm sayin, is people just don't mostly know! They think they got it goin' on with their 2 speakers usually, but they don't! There's a lot more to this HT stuff here than meets the eye folks!
There are a scant few out there that REALLY know how to do it right. Everyone else just thinks they are.