Directionality of wire

@jea48

No, Jea, I didn’t read it - I skimmed a bit, and what little I did read seems to be perfectly covered by Al.

Thanks Al. Somebody's got to speak up for science.

almarg
7,421 posts                                                                      08-18-2017 6:10pm

Quoted from AA:
If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....

On the other hand, though, if the signal and return wires are run in opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then if the cable is constructed in a symmetrical manner (i.e., both conductors identical, and not having a shield grounded at just one end), then reversing the direction of the cable should make no difference **even if** the conductors are intrinsically directional. Unless, that is, the dielectric (as opposed to the conductors) somehow causes a difference.

If the two conductors in a symmetrically designed cable are run in opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then no matter which way the cable is connected the two conductors will **both** always be in the allegedly "correct" direction for half of each cycle, and the allegedly "incorrect" direction for the other half of each cycle. That follows from what I said in an earlier post in this thread:

Almarg 8-14-2017
When "the current" is traveling away from the component in one of the two conductors it is traveling toward the component in the other of the two conductors.

And it is **always** traveling through the input circuit of the component in one direction or the other, aside from the brief instant during each cycle at which the applied voltage crosses zero, and the direction changes.

(To add context, I had put quotation marks around "the current" to distinguish it from the electromagnetic energy of "the signal," that being conducted via the dielectric).

So the AA member’s statement seems to me to be self-contradictory. He’s saying that wires are directional, but putting the two wires in directions that would allow the cable to exhibit their alleged directionality will produce bad results.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al,
I tend to agree with you on this statement,

On the other hand, though, if the signal and return wires are run in opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then if the cable is constructed in a symmetrical manner (i.e., both conductors identical, and not having a shield grounded at just one end), then reversing the direction of the cable should make no difference **even if** the conductors are intrinsically directional. Unless, that is, the dielectric (as opposed to the conductors) somehow causes a difference.

Rereading Bob’s post he says solid core wire is extremely directional. He is speaking of the wire itself. His comments in his post are about running the direction of the hot/signal and ground/return in opposite directions, as you well noted. Bob really doesn’t say, I don’t believe, the final product build of the two wires, interconnect, is directional though. In fact the thread is about the construction/building of the interconnect and running the two conductors in opposite directions.

Al, did you read this post of Bob’s.

Re: maybe rcrump... I don’t know, but... rcrump 08:15:38 10/01/00 (0)

In Reply to: Re: maybe rcrump... I don’t know, but... posted by surround on September 30, 2000 at 20:41:31:

Glad I could help! I think once that there are definitive FM measurements available on wire that this swapping ends will become clear, but in the meantime building wire is an artform once you get beyond the simple measurements such as inductance, capacitance and resistance....Jon Risch posted a bibliography recently and I noticed that some folks are doing some FM measurements trying to get a handle on some of the effects that are easily heard in a good system....My partner, John Curl, has a wonderful bench and can measure down to one part in a million as respects AM measurements, but it is obvious that we are measuring the wrong things as respects wire. These are exciting times and the music will be better served once we can measure these effects that are so easily heard.....In the meantime enjoy your project and note that some of the cost of the commercial interconnects went into a lot of time spent listening to different permutations...

Thoughts?

.

SOooo back to square one, other than cables using a shield that is connected to one end how come some cables are directional? I for one have heard it for myself. I have a few pairs of old Audiquest solid core silver Diamond X2 SE and solid core silver Lapis X2 SE ICs and years ago I could hear a slight difference when they were flipped end for end.

A few years ago I borrowed a pair of Clear Day solid core silver SE ICs which are also sold as being directional. And yes through experimenting with them they are indeed directional. At least on my audio system. I should mention my son could also hear the difference with the Audioquest cables as well as the Clear Day cables.

And then there are the digital cables which you and I have discussed before. And I agree with your reasoning why they are, can be, directional. The fact still remains, they are, can be, directional. And as I still say today, flip them digital cables with RCA ends end to end to hear what sounds best. One way will sound slightly better than the other.

Cheers,
Jim

Note: there is no reason why stranded cables shouldn’t also be "very directional," since even teeny tiny wires suffer the same indignities when being pulled through the final die as thicker wires -- assuming all the tiny little strands of wire are all pointed in the same direction, resistance wise. I suspect that is probably the case since it doesn’t make sense that stranded cables would be constructed any other way, in a random way. But who knows? Be that as it may, directionality of stranded cables can be controlled during manufacture just like solid core cables. Power cords which I’m pretty sure are usually stranded should be controlled for directionality just like fuses in AC circuits, right?

Jea48 8-18-2017
Rereading Bob’s post he says solid core wire is extremely directional. He is speaking of the wire itself. His comments in his post are about running the direction of the hot/signal and ground/return in opposite directions, as you well noted. Bob really doesn’t say, I don’t believe, the final product build of the two wires, interconnect, is directional though. In fact the thread is about the construction/building of the interconnect and running the two conductors in opposite directions.

Yes, I see that now, Jim. He does not say, at least in that thread, that cables are directional; he is just addressing the wire itself. Yet it is also true, as we are saying, that the cable configuration he recommends would negate the intrinsic directionality he is attributing to the wire itself.

As for the "why" of whatever intrinsic directionality wire may possess, I note that even he says "I don’t want to speculate why wire is directional." Although he also says that "it appears to be an FM distortion." FM distortion, phase distortion, and timing jitter are inter-related concepts. And as you alluded to, and I indicated earlier in the thread, timing jitter resulting from VSWR (reflection) effects figures to be the basis of directionality in digital cables. But I have no idea how at analog audio frequencies a symmetrically designed cable might introduce differing amounts of FM or phase distortion depending on which way it is connected.

Best regards,
-- Al

Without all those arrows on the cables, how are those little tiny electrons going to know which way to go?  They'll get lost!

If the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math, then high end cables are a tax on audiophiles who are bad at science.