Which watts are the right watts in SS amps?


Hello Sports Fans!

More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.

Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.

An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.

I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.

After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.

I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.

Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.

The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.

I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.

However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.

IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.

I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.

Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.

I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.

Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.

A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.

So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?

Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?

Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.

Please, share your experiences if possible.

Tanks muchly!

blindjim
@blindjim 
One could just as rationally say amp designers should just build amps that have much more authoritative grip on the speakers. I don't see the reactive nature of many speakers as a problem. A well designed speaker uses those characteristics as a means to an end and it's really the fault of the user who doesn't select the appropriate amp. The goal of a speaker designer is to design a speaker that sounds good, not treats the amp kindly. A competent amp deals with it. 


@kosst_amojan . design a speaker that sounds good, not treats the amp kindly. A competent amp deals with it.

Blindjim > I have no argument for that what so ever. Wisdom filled words. Thank you. However, it doesn’t seem to resolve the question presented herein.

Unreproachable built amps with solid power resources seems the solution, although the exact output or capacity of the amp and how one determines it beforehand with respect to any speaker remains elusive.

Naively I thought out there somewhere was a formula, theory, or practice apart from practical past experiences which would satisfy it. It looks like there is none.
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@atmasphere > @blindjim that description really sounds like the amp clipping- all bets are off at that point.

OK. lets be clear on what clipping actually is for a change.
I thought it was an insufficient supply of power to a drivers demands or desires to produce a set of frequencies at a particular volume level..
Or IOW, a driver being starved of necessary voltage.

EX. Sony HT receiver w/120wpc + BW 9s, and later BW 802s. replacing the sony amp with a Krell KaV 250 no fuzziness or softness was perceived..

EX 2
Jamo R909s with BC 500 mono blocks.

I can’t help but feel after the upgrade in EX 1, and the Jamo + BC 500 amps, clipping was not an issue.
Please, correct me if I’m flatly wrong.


@atmasphere > are you nutz even suggesting any of your amps would compete with the Gryphon I mentioned on a speaker such as the Wilson Alexia, or others even with similar hard varying loads.

Blindjim > huh? Sorry Ralph, but You obviously have my remarks confused with someone else’. I never alluded to anything remotely disparaging regarding Gryphon amps. Nor did I make any reference to Wilson speakers.

Check your reference… you must have meant someone else yet did not include their handle to indicate your words were directed to them..
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What about McIntosh amps? With their autoformer, weather you use either the 8 ohms, 4 ohms, or the 2 ohms tap you get the same power. So why have three taps when each taps produce the same wattage?
Mike, as I understand it the rationale for the use of autoformers in McIntosh solid state amps is to enable the output stage of the amp to "see" a higher load impedance when driving low impedance speakers.  Specifically, to "see" the same load impedance when a 2 ohm load is connected to the 2 ohm tap as when a 4 ohm load is connected to the 4 ohm tap, and as when an 8 ohm load is connected to the 8 ohm tap. Thereby making life easier for the output stage (i.e., improving its performance) when the amp is required to drive low impedances. Of course, that benefit will trade off against whatever sonic downsides may be introduced by the autoformer itself.

Regards,
-- Al

Most tube amps are the equivalent of a graphic equalizer - hence a no no for me.
If the amp employs about 20 db of loop feedback, it is capable of acting as a true voltage source, whether it can double power into half the impedance or not. IOW, it can be within 0.5db if there are no limitations in the bandwidth of the output transformer. The trick is not to look at things at full power, but to observe what is going on at 1/10th full power, where most of the amplifier power is likely spent. At those power levels you will see any voltage source acting like any other voltage source, doubling power when it needs to or cutting it in half when it needs to.

Most of the time the coloration that people really complain about in a tube amp is the 2nd harmonic, which adds richness. Solid state amps usually lack this on account of being fully differential. Its possible to build a tube amp fully balanced and differential as well, and if so built they too will lack even ordered harmonics as they are canceled throughout the circuit, not just in the load.

However there is a price that solid state exacts of its owners- they too have coloration, only in this case it is higher ordered harmonics. They are certainly at a low level, but the human ear/brain system uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure (likely because pure sine waves are non-existent in nature and so are not part of our evolution) ; as a result humans are very sensitive to higher ordered harmonics and can hear them easily. The audiophile terms for this are 'bright', 'harsh' and similar turns. This explains why two amps can have similar bandwidth within 0.5db yet one might sound bright and the other not. IOW we respond to distortion by perceiving it as a tonal coloration.

This simple fact is why tubes are still around decades on after being declared obsolete. If you can eliminate the oppressive nature of the top end in a system, then the system might get more listening time.

IOW the real reason behind the tube/transistor ad nausem is all about distortion.
Check your reference… you must have meant someone else yet did not include their handle to indicate your words were directed to them..
 R
@blindjim , my remarks were quoting George from the other thread by the same name in the amps section.