Back to analog ..was it a mistake???

Dear Missioncoonery: Good that comeback.

All what you say is ok but you have to make changes in that analog rig.

A dealer recomendation on a cartridge means almost nothing: that's what he sale and not what you need.

Don't diminish that Ortofon vintage NOS cartridge only because the 160 beats the MM you own.
IMHO the M20E Super is so good that you need to spend at least 3K-4K on other cartridge to beat it.

IMHO too, first step to achieve good quality performance depend on the analog source quality performance that in this case that analog source is the cartridge.

Your call.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

There's an element of truth and fear that I think almost all of us recognize in Missioncoonery's OP-that's why it has drawn the attention. As others have said already, getting a vinyl rig to the point that it consistenly sounds better than current high quality CDs played through a current era $2K CDP (or arguably even an $800 CDP) is no easy task. Why d'ya think the majority of reviewers at S'Phile don't have vinyl rigs in their systems? Clearly John Atkinson, Wes Phillips, Kal Rubinson, et al, they just scoff at the idea of vinyl. You have to be an optimist. You have to be a zealot. You have to like the routine, the active engagement (in a hobby dominated by fancy remote controls!), the adherence to detail. I only occasionally have heard great soundstaging with vinyl in my system. Great bass, yes, great dynamics yes, beatiful voice yes, but soundstage depth and width and height are rare qualities. But then again, my new VPI 30th Anniversay Classic just arrived at my office in two separate boxes as shipped by VPI, the platter in a separate 22lb (!!) box and my heart is skipping and I am more optimistic than ever before. You have to consider the entire picture-the fun of hunting for great vinyl, the admiration of the engineering that goes into a table, the Protestant work ethic of working to get that vinyl ready to set the needle down, it's the whole picture that must be considered. And one must also consider that though the average current era CD may sound better than the vinyl record, CDs almost never sound perfect or even much beyond a B+/A-.

Missioncoonery
I am not defending either side of the coin here... However there is one guarantee, I have an analog setup including table, HUGE isolation block out of solid maple, perfect custom Phono amp matched with cartridge sporting the Sound-smith ruby contact line stylus and it would put a smile on your face vs. anything you could muster in identical recordings on a vinyl or cd as long as you could have comparable recordings on each.

HOWEVER, this is SO dependent on the original recordings you are trying to play, some are Dogs, some are just bad pressings of Great albums that 1 out of 5 are just bad, the other 4 are great same label, same series, same year etc...

This takes a lot to get down to the bottom line best, I went thru 3 different versions of several "Vinyl" recordings to match and or beat a very good Red book remaster on CD for example and this to many is just not worth it.

It is much more hit and miss than digital these days, however if you hit not miss there is no other equal to a perfect vinyl playback in general vs. CD.

A lot of patience, work, and simply understanding of what issues cause what lack of sound you are getting are keys to this game. Some recordings just can't be saved or perfected, but another copy of the same thing all of a sudden sounds perfect.

And types of music becomes even more difficult to pinpoint, for example the Beatles, Zeppelin, and even most good Pink floyd Cd's sound like a joke once heard on an excellent copy of vinyl. Another couple of great sets I just grabbed that NO CD even on a 15 k Wadia sounded as good are almost all the Police albums, and Peter gabriel on Vinyl are just way beyond.

Again its hit and miss, not a direct answer to your issue. Again many times this does not come all the way down to gear and setup, but just some times people have to realize you can't fit a round peg thru a square hole.

If you just want to throw something on, not think too much, be happy than this is not the game for you. For audiophiles in general this is not the game, this is for the real deep tweaking, money spending, gotta find the end all be all drive tweaking audiophiles for sure.

I would try a few more carts before you give up.

I recently bought a used 89 non circus LP12 from a dealer with a new Hercules 2 power supply, Rega RB300 arm, and Rega Elys 2 cart. Also bought a Rega Fono as I was starting from scatch.

With this combo I was not very impressed.

About 5 years ago I bought my first turntable. A VPI Scout with a Benz Ace HO. Also bought a $300 Gram Slee phono pre. This combo was not bad sounding but was not much if any better than my digital setup. I figured I would have to spend alot more to get better results. I sold it a year later to upgrade something else.

Back to the LP12. I was not happy with the sound so I decided to upgrade the phono stage first. I picked up a used Plinius M14 for a good price on this site. This was a huge upgade and more like what I was looking for. I returned the Rega Fono to the dealer.

Next upgrade was the cart. My dealer let me use the Elys 2 while I waited for a Rega Exact 2 to show up. Once the Exact was mounted and a few hours put on it I was fairly happy with the sound but still not beating my digital setup in alot of areas like soundstage and bass. It was quite musical though.

Then I rewired the rega arm with the Cardas incognito kit and installed a Michell technoweight. This extended the highs and lows and evened out the frequency responce a bit. A more refined sound.

The output of the Rega Exact is very high about 7 mv. and the the lowest setting on the Plinius M14 is 56 db of gain switchable to 60 db. I had to use the bottom of my preamps volume dail which I did not like. So on to my next cart.

I did not want to spend more than about $1000 but wanted to get the best I could find.

Made an offer on a retipped van den Hul Frog for $950. Next day the seller said I was second in line and would get back to me. I figured it was gone so I made another offer on a van den Hul retipped Colibri for $1300. Ten minutes later both offers were accepted. I guess that will teach me to be more patient. Oh well I get the chance to try them out and sell the one that does not synergize with my system.

I read online that the van den Hul stylus are sensitive to vta so I ordered a vta adjuster from Pete Riggle. This makes adjusting vta a snap. For the price its a no brainer over the Rega shims.

The Frog showed up first. At .65 mv output this solved my volume problem. The bass is now on par with or slightly better than my digital rig. Much more transparent than the Rega carts. Soundstage nice depth and width. Much better focus now on par with digital but the highs are more natural. This is with only about 30 hours on it.

One week later my Colibri arrives from the Netherlands. This is the xgp model with .25 mv output. I only have about 8 hours on it but it sounds fantastic. Even more transparent and lifelike.

I think your denon cart has a spherical stylus. You might want to try one with a eliptical or fine line for lower noise from ticks and pops.

Cheers,

Sean

I agree with undertow, vinyl is hit and miss even with a great set up, so you just have to be patient. Maybe the discs that you were listening to were dogs? I have no doubt that a properly setup analog system can beat a comparably priced digital one in terms of soundstage, imaging, bass etc. So if good sound is worth it to you, I would keep trying... maybe try another cart, look at your setup again, try some LPs that are proven to sound great. I did and I haven't turned on my CDP in years. However, if the inconvenience is not worth it to you, get a great DAC and rip a few thousand tunes onto your HD and don't look back. Oh, btw, you might want to fix the space key on your keyboard.