Schroeder Reference Arm

I just don't get how one night of comparison at RMAF is going to tell anyone which arm is better. I do feel that Dan_ed's personal experience will be much more valid (especially for himself). But any cartridge I have ever setup (and a good setup takes time and tweaking, I don't care what expert you are - as VTF, VTA etc all need to be fine tuned over time) needed about 2-3 days to lock in all aspects. The best one will accomplish is an overall character assessment in some regard or other.

On a different note the art of setting up a Schroeder is long and painful but very rewarding in my case. Using different counterweights and different headshell weights all contribute to the final sound. As does the damping etc. I can't imagine many people getting to hear a Schroder at it's best. But, Frank - that is the curse of your arm. It is a setup nightmare and has been confirmed as such in the mainstream press. You should almost include a DVD. But when you change VTA you change VTF and you change azimuth. Anyhow it is as if I circle in on a point and as I keep refining the setup the circles get smaller and smaller until I finally get to the point, where VTF, VTA - damping, Azimuth etc are all locks in. Don't forget HTA as well. The difference I have observed of the Schroeder outside of the difficultly of setup is that the lack of a ball bearing does slightly change the dynamic and resolution in the bass. This is similar to an air bearing arm. But there is a musicality and dimensionality that exists with certain cartridges on Franks arm that has made that sacrifice worth it. Now if a different arm w. a unipivot bearing can combine the best of all worlds that would be great but honestly surprising. But no single night in RMAF will give the complete answer. Just a gimpse of what the possibilities are.

Dgad, you make great points. I, personally, am not really interested in a quest to find which arm is better than the other. I expect them to be very close in performance. If I'm wrong on this, I won't be the first time. :-) As is usually the case, I expect some may prefer one arm/cart combination to another as Frank pointed out before. For me this is simply a wonderful opportunity to meet and learn from some of the best.

One thing I will say that in all of my Talea listening to the present, I have not really fine tuned the setup (No MintLP protractor yet, for instance) of my XV-1s on the Talea. Yet the Talea clearly shows enhanced performance of the three cartridges that have been mounted when I was present compared to the Triplanar. I hate to keep saying this because I still love my Triplanar, but that is the best reference I have. I have heard a Schroeder Ref on several occasions but that is much different than my having hands-on experience.

As Thom mentioned above, the Talea is making me rethink my aversion to two arms on my Gavia.

Dgad's points are indeed valid - in fact, true optimization of the analog front end is a time consuming, laborious task that takes much longer than the optimistic numbers Dgad postulates (unless you happen to have a stroke of dumb luck, or you're sloppy). I believe the only caveat in his example is that all 3 designers (Tri, Frank and Joel) will be in the room, optimizing the setup of their respective arms. I would imagine that a common denominator, such as a Dynavector XV-1S, or a ZYX Universe will be present. All three designers are intimately familiar with the turntable in question; all three will be familiar in part with the rest of the system Thom will be using. I think the biggest variable will be the room and the overall system setup. So, while nothing is perfect, I do think the playing field is at least level. Will each arm be heard at its very very best? Probably not, but I think everyone present will hopefully glean something more useful than a mere 'character assessment' of all the arms in play. Of course, the potential and actual rarely meet, and Murphy is always lurking...

Sarcher, I believe human hearing would be most sensitive at between 500 and 2000 Hz (grossly speaking), and that's why we have 1kHz test tones and why crosstalk, distortion, etc, are usually measured at that frequency. Does the optimal electronic setting for azimuth vary much between 500 and 2K? I do not know. I would guess not.

Darn, this thread has taken off, and I plainly don’t have time to involve myself in the finer points of things analog.

I did want to take a moment to clarify a couple points of fact, as well as to comment about the Tri-Planar, which seems to be coming off as the red headed step child, even though this is unintended by the various posters. We have a tendency to try to read too much into each other’s written word, and sometimes this serves neither us, nor the product being discussed.

Our play session on Saturday night at this year’s ‘Fest (suite 1130 as always) is only now shaping up. Typically, Saturday evening sessions never start up before 8:30pm. We can never close the doors at 6pm on the dot, and the round-trip to dinner easily consumes two to two and a half hours.

Playing with two tonearms in this context is all that can reasonably be expected. In a short session like this (2-3 hours), the mind blurs, and we’ll no doubt want to try some different combinations. Frank typically brings some tasty cartridges to the show, so my guess is that there will be perhaps 2 or 3 setups on each arm.

As many have already commented, there will be no losers. Anyone who walks into this with an impression of a shootout, is sorely misguided.

Also, as far as involving Tri-Planar, Tri-Mai typically hosts some sort of event on Saturdays, so for this reason as well, we likely won’t bring a Tri-Planar into the mix. Don’t read anything beyond that into this.

As I work on the Stelvio II architecture, I’m wringing more and more out of the Tri-Planar along with every other arm. One of the key areas of improvement in the Stelvio II lies in the arm mounting architecture. I’m moving away from the pivoting armboard architecture, as I’ve wrung everything I can out of it. There will still be dual arm capability, btw.

Every arm I’ve experimented with on this new arm mounting architecture has benefited from it. Now, it just so happens that one of the Tri-Planar’s “weak” area lies in the upper mid/lower treble zone, where things can get the slightest bit bright. I hate writing this, because it is very, very slight. Keep in mind that I think enough of this arm to consider it (along with the Schroeder and Talea) as a reference. Still however, this upper mid/lower treble zone is *exactly* where most of the improvements in the new mounting architecture lie.

The other strength in this new architecture (I didn’t think this was possible) lies in the solidity and authority in the bottom end.

I didn’t intend this to be a sales brochure, but rather an attempt to bring a bit of fairness into the conversation about the Tri-Planar. Some of the observations about the arm seem to be a case of shooting the messenger. Where have we seen that before?

For the record, the room is shaping up as follows:

Galibier Stelvio II / Dyna XV1s or Artisan Cadenza (aka Benz LP S-class)
Atma-Sphere MP-1 Preamp
Atma-Sphere M-60 Amplifiers
Green Mountain Audio Speakers (new model, yet to be named)
Cables – either Audio Magic, Discovery, or Marigo

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier