Are you manufacturer's paying attention?

My point is that I don't think the complaints about the absence of reasonably priced audio gear are valid. I call upon those who feel differently to prove that there truly are no worthwhile audio products available at affordable prices.

I asked for folks to contribute to a list of worthy and fairly priced components so that we could perhaps examine whether those components really do represent worthy sonic performance at realistic prices. Let's agree on what qualifies as good performance for the price.

Do we want to compare the differences between the Atma-Sphere MA-1's (at $10K) and the Cary SLAM-100's (at $5K), for example? Or do we want to discuss the merits of going with the entry Plinius separates as opposed to the best Plinius integrated amp? Do products from ARCAM, Musical Fidelity, Antique Sound Lab, Audio Electronic Supply, and Wright Sound qualify for this discussion?

I also suggested we all have some control over the pricing. If it ain't worth it, don't buy it. Prices will come down if so-called over-priced gear does not sell. (I believe that sonic performance per dollar spent is going UP, not down IMHO.)

Many audio buyers seem to pay a lot for components based on the perceived prestige of owning "pedigree" gear as opposed to superior sonic performance. Is my point any clearer now?

If your reference to the market place finding out about high prices not necessarily offering commensurate performance, and you mean Joule Electra, I agree.

I am familiar with both the VZN 80 and your MA-1's. Their pricing was ballpark similar at the time I heard both. No contest. MA-1's win.

ralph@atma sez:"We would all like to make amps that cheap, I imagine, but the facts are that such an amp has to really have some corners cut to be worth making." I dare say my indirect experience in the matter tallies, lately with a EE friend battling to build a "no-compromise" pre (tube).
The materials research alone has cost him $4.5k and it's not over; already the unit in "beta" form costs ~2.5k to assemble NOT including case, etc and damping matls. The chord linking the PS to the main chassis adds another $100...
And this from a seasoned hobbyist with 25yrs of tinkering behind him!
I hate to think what the retail price of such a unit could be!

95% of the performance at half the price! This is a theory that I adhere to do to my limited funds. If I had an endless bank acount, I might be purchasing differantly. I suppose that the manufacturers are developing products in the market that they think they will most likely succeed in. I typically buy used for economic reasons, however, my last 2 amp purchases were new products, the Odyssey Stratus and the Decware Integrated. Both of these being direct from the manufacturer. This method probably saves somewhere around 40%. Not quite as convenient as your local audio store, but at least as good a way to buy comparing to buying used.
As for a list, I'll stick with:
1. Decware Integrated $1495 (new) or any of the Zen's
2. Odyssey Stratus $995 (new)
I'd love to see others "short" lists

The issue, of course, is not whether one can create an expensive device through the incorporation of expensive components but whether the inclusion of such components yields a discriminable difference in sound.

Is a person who has laid out $10,000 or so for a preamp going to say, "Well, ya know, I don't really hear any difference; I just like the look of the panel face...or the looks on the faces of my guests when I tell them how much I paid"? Obviously not.

This is where the value of blind testing (which is NOT the same as quickie, push-the-button ABX testing) comes in. Alas, we get very little of that in the magazines and none at all in forums like agon. Without careful, extended listening by objective individuals (which excludes owners, manufacturers and dealers) we're really hard pressed to know whether the lavish investment in hand-built capacitors, 6 AWG air core inductors and 0.001% precision resistors makes a difference commensurate with cost--or even any difference at all.

So a few people end up paying terrifically high prices (and defending their decision to do so right to the last breath), while others sag in discouragement, sure they'll never really experience nirvana, while yet others descend into cynicism and begin to write for Audio Critic....

We should keep a couple of other facts in mind, too. One is that not all high priced products are filled with high priced components. There've been enough exposes of high end gear built with low end bits, and megabuck speakers complemented with $25 off-the-shelf drivers. Caveat emptor! Another is that the phenomenon of salon pricing is not limited to equipment manufacturers but extends down the food chain to component manufacturers, as well. One very well respected component vendor charges hundreds of dollars for inductors that any boob with half a brain, a spool of magnet wire, and a ten-buck surplus coil winder can make for himself in half an hour.

The ecodynamics and the psychology of the high end are complex but these phenomena are fairly central to its current unhealthy state, I'm sure.

will