Cable vs. Electronics: biggest bang for the buck

Oh come on Muralaman. I come in this morning and nothing. You say you want "Peace" - which was nice - said you'd thank me if I listed my system publicly and then contacted you - which I did, and nicely, notwithstanding that I'd invited you to contact me three times and you hadn't, and had said I was a "bully" etc. - then you replied, privately, by saying that I was "authoritarian" (read: dictatorial) in my posts, "insulting" and "thin-skinned", and no "thank you" to be seen. So, I take you to task for making absolutist statements in your last post - once more revealed in your position that, somehow, your friend has been converted by your faulty, one-off experiment on a flawed system against your pre-less, mid-level CD system - and not even a burp. Actually, psych was right; it was bread on the water, bamboo across the back, 6ch's koan-like utterances, a bear trap for your ego, so I applaud your restraint. With that said, my points in content remain outstanding.

Thank you detlof. I will call this morning first thing.

Nrchy: I didn't mean to say that you didn't or couldn't hear the difference - I think you DID. But, many people don't and I didn't think it was such a good idea to just say to Muralman that he should just get a piece of Dominus and he'd find out. Nor did I think it would be fair because I know that Muralman wouldn't do that and the expense and hassle would be prohibitive for him given that he probably wouldn't be interested in purchasing it. Yes, a piece of Dominus can be heard on many systems of all different levels, and it can even "do" more in more advanced systems. Again, whether it is worth $7K is a matter of financial relativity. I couldn't afford it, but that doesn't mean that it might not be a valid choice under certain circumstances.

Which leads me to this. Yes, I hear you, Gregm. A way to look at it is symmetry breaking. If you are flying above the earth at a lower altitude, the coastline looks like a jagged line. But higher, it looks more like a staight line. The higher knows the lower, but the lower, if it claims that you can't ever go higher, claims the coastline is only jagged (knowledge is state-specific). Interestingly, if you say to the low flyer that he can remember being lower and the coastline was different then too, so why can't he believe that it might be different higher than he goes, he continues to illogically say, no, there is no higher; thus, by his attachment to his level of sight he limits his own possibilities; the "donkey" sees two equidistant stacks because of the assumptions he brings to them. All the flyers are equal in their potential to fly - they all are in the same type of planes - and it is only your limitation upon yourself that limits how high you can go. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within and all around but men do not see."

Psych, house in the woods, house in the woods, house in the...but the same world is there too, albeit a little quieter (my choice also).

Psych, well now, that is a different consideration, one of pragmaticism and relativity. If a wire is "extruded" - and I take you to mean that because it is less complex in its manufacture then it should be priced less - then what of the situation where someone builds an amp using old design theory that doesn't sound very good vs. someone who designs a wire with new technological know-say, say, electromagntism, that sounds great?

Here's what I think the real problem is, and one I sympathize with: many people believe that the "technology" or design creativity behind wire, regardless of its complexity in structure or lack thereof, does not justify the price vis-a-vis other more complexly constructed "components." And, that wire being so expensive - while admittedly being important in a system, and perhaps even increasingly important in systems as they advance - nonetheless, the DISPARITY in value of construction vs. maginal utility of performance is so imbalanced as to be suspect. Moreover, since wire makers seem to rely on scientific theories ("Golden-stranded") that appear less to do with science and more to do with marketing over-priced wire, this suspicion becomes heightened. In this heightened state, therefore, we should be on guard towards over-priced wire that claims that it will transform your world.

Sounds like a valid argument to me, pragmatically speaking. Yea, if a guy is taking advantage of a good product by hiking the price, then we should perhaps look elsewhere. The problem with that argument is that this is not the country that you live in; capitalism is premised upon the assumption of infinite greed, with the further assumption that lessened demand will result in corrections to over-priced product. Its not robbery to take money from people who pay, which why some people here did not take that tack, instead choosing a "scientific" or "empiric" approach. So, if its not the seller's fault - given the theory of our economy - then it must be the buyer, which is what the real motivation for what alot of people are saying but not saying: not that wire isn't a "component", not that "complexity" is determitive, not that the capitalist system is flawed (which, er, could be your next argument, another kettle of fish), but that people who buy such wire, regardless of its subjective performance even if true, are STUPID for spending that much.

But again, its relative: would the Bangladeshi think that your stereo purchase is STUPID in his/her context? You see what I mean?

I don't spend that amount on wire because I don't believe in a system premised upon infinite greed and don't respect the wire maker who takes advantage of the flaw of that assumption - I simply don't want him to get the rewards of an allegiance to the assumption of infinite greed. I don't think its a good way to set up a system - encouraging everyone to prey upon each other mentally because you won't take the courage to think of something better - so I CHOOSE not to buy it; my philosophy and orientation determines that choice, not an inauthentic "scientific" argument. That doesn't mean, however, that its not great wire in performative terms.

An extruder is a very sophisticaded machine--a good one will cost about one million dollars. My last job was in idustrial inkjet sales, mainly to the extrusion industry (yes, the coding that repeats itself on and on and on...).

Quite the contrary, because a good extrusion machine is capable of putting out a well made, sophisticated product in one run that's why good cabling shouldn't have such high prices. Look at companies that have their own extruders and what they can produce for the money (Belden & Monster among them). Extrapolate this to state of the art product and one can see that there's no reason (in a capitalist system) for the prices to be unrealistic.

Psychicanimal, if there is little or nothing to the construction of these $7000 cables can you make a few pairs for me? I will pay you $1000 per pair for every one that sounds as good as the cable I currently have, which by the way is not as good as the Dominus. You should be able to get rich on this deal.
Why are people willing to justify the cost of expensive electronics but not cables? Electronics degrade the source signal more than cables can!
There seems to be a degree of inconsistancy here.

Psych:

Yes, just based upon construction costs, but a capitalistic system is based upon supply and demand dynamics; the system should be based upon cost IMHO, and competition forces should drive prices down, but with "unique" products cost of construction is negated, ie a painting. This is where the mega-buck cable manufacturers fall in performative terms, or so they would contend. The question then becomes: is the performance worth it to you, in the context of such an economic system? Again it is relative. Reject the premise of the system, the capitalistic God, or reject the idea that mega-buck wire is unique. Saying it is not unique may be an argument, ie mega-buck cable is not sufficiently different in performance terms than cheaper stuff, but unless you make that argument, you can not point to construction expense as the determinitive factor in determining marginal utility, or value of use (read: performance). A factor to look at, but one that becomes incresingly irrelevant as demand increases and you have uniqueness of product. The mega-buck cables prices suffered from both, as did all components. Specifically, in the 90's the Japanese SE market propelled prices exponentially higher, and particularly in wire like Purist and NBS that excell at stae of the art tube systems; the Nordost Valhallas/SPM's which are consumed by bothe SS and tube afficionados came later. We are still suffering from this escalation. And although I may consider its escalation artificially high based upon irrationally high demand, capitalism doesn't care about irrational demand or not; it absorbs infinite greed, buying or selling.

So, again, you are left with the idea that people are stupid to pay so much. But then again, our economy is premised upon the climb towards such objects, the incentive to become "somebody" through acquisition. If you want to argue that some buy mega-buck cable simply to say they are owners, adding to their idea of themselves, that's a valid argument because surely it occurs. But again, is it determinitive of value in terms of performance?

Yes, agreed, extrusion of metal is not as complex form of construction as an amp, either in terms of matter arrangement or labor or means of production. But if that technology performs better, regardless of those factors, and IF it cost you nothing, which one would you pick?

You see, its the COST OF PURCHASE that bothers people, the $7K, not the construction cost. But if you were to make that argument, then you would have to argue that the cost of other "components" in a stereo is also not justified based upon construction complexity, ie. a tractor would have more absolute "value" than an amp because its more complex. You know why that doesn't sound right, like comparing apples and oranges? Because value is not to be considered in a vacuum but considered in terms of a tool's USE. "Use" describes, in stereo terms, its performance - so there you are back to that.

Then, you are left making the argument that construction costs do not justify that level of performance, the DISPARITY thing again. But again, that's relative based upon income and you desire (your demand).

Is a Van Gogh worth $54 mil? Should wire be considered tha "unique", or since the NBS's of the world have been caught up with by the Virtual Dynamics of the world, is the disparity not justified.

I would say incresingly less so, and thankfully so. But yet, the Dominus does "do" something in state-of the-art systems that people who have them say is critical - the space and harmonics thing. Is that true, or are the Porter's and HP's of the world merely hearing things?