The whole point of the review and the subsequent comments is that outrageously priced cables add a bigger improvement for less money than buying the electronics. I have listened to $7000 monoblocks and not heard as much improvement as I did with the $7000 cables. So ultimately which is cheaper, or a better value? |
One of the factors in my review that I think perhaps gives it a little credibility is the fact that the cables were not mine and had to be returned to their true owner. I had no investment to justify and really felt no obligation to the owner to like the cables. The problem arose when the cables were broken-in and sounded better than anything I have ever heard before.
The question was raised as to whether the cables I used up to that point were of poor(er) quality. They were not. Up to the point when I was loaned the Dominus cables, the best I had ever heard were the Purist Colossus. The first time I heard them I was sold. Unfortunately I could not afford them and they went back to the store. Over the past few years I was able to purchase them and have never regretted the decision. The Dominus are just that much better.
I don't know about the physics (I only got A's and B's in college physics) or the bench test measurements. To a large degree I don't even care about them. I leave things like that to smarter people like Sean, whose opinion I value. I buy based on what I hear in my room. I believe I have a fairly well balanced system, which is not to say it requires no improvement. I calculate it to be in the $30,000 range. At the level I'm dealing with I can justify based on my experience spending a disproportionate amount of money on better cables because results are there!
I am not suggesting spending $3000 for cable on a $1000 system. I think these purchases need to be balanced (although I prefer single-ended).
Better cables tend to do less bad things to the signal, so anything less than better cables are resticting the ability of your system to sound it's best. If I can follow this logic it seems as though everything spent on better cable is justified while what is spent on electronics is suspect at best. BUT you can't listen to cable without electronics.
My conclusion? I will be buying the best cables I can afford right now even though it is enough to upgrade my amp or speakers if I chose to go that route. |
I guess there's a lot of places to spend your money if you don't care about how good your system sounds. I'm not sure if some of these people are kidding or if they really think zipcord will sound as good a better cable. I guess, to each his own. |
There have been many comments made about how the cables are functioning as filters, as well as having other negative effects on the signal. Is there any reason this wouldn't be true of every piece of equipment in the chain? Amps and pre-amps are not passive. Everything has a sonic signature! When there are large amounts of capacitors and resistors and powere supplies the signal is going to be altered even more. It stands to reason that electronics detrimentally effect the signal more than cables will.
Maybe all componants are crap, but some are less crap than others. |
Bwhite there is a huge gap in your logic. Not to mention the fact that you make a completely unsubstantiated statement :(
How can the poor transmission of an inferior signal benefit it? If this logic is true wouldn't the best playback source be putting your ear to the cartridge of your turntable and skipping the electronics? Maybe you could run the cartridge leads into a stethascope.
The circular reasoning of your second paragraph evacuates it of any meaning. Inferior cable is cable which degradates the sound, it has nothing to do with price. The concern is solely with the sound and the point of this thread was intended to be that $$$ were not the issue. What makes a cable excellant?
I understand that there will always be a divergence of opinions but this reasoning makes no sense. |
I'm afraid I've created a monster! |
You guys are way out of my league. I am not an electrical engineer but isn't it silly to talk about $300 cables on $30,000 systems. I'm pretty sure no one is talking about a disparity like this. I guess I was assuming a certain level of quality that most of would consider to be HiFi (I know, I know, I'm going to get ripped for this statement). I think most of us would agree that the majority of the equipment available is pretty good right now. Most of the purchases of equipment beyond mid-fi is personal preference.
The point I was raising was on a level playing field upgrading cable is more cost effective than upgrading electronics. I wondered if this was a consensus issue or if there was still a lot of arguement about it.
After all this I'm still not sure. |
Audioengr, if you listen to .wav files how much further could you still lower your standards? I have sacd and find it to be disappointing compared to analog. The sound doesn't compare. All the rest of those formats are dramatically poorer, so why bother? |
I find SACDs and especially CDs disappointing in comparision to vinyl. I have a $3500 SACD player and when I do direct comparisions with music I have on both formats the SACD falls short. CDs are fine for having something on to listen to while you're vacuuming or working around the house, but they sound so small and compressed that for actual listening they are practically unlistenable. The only time I will buy and listen to something on CD is when I want something by a particular artist but it is not available on a better medium.
For him who has ears to hear... I can sit and listen to SACDs for a longer period of time than I could CDs. Their sound is much more "real" or live sounding where redbook CDs sound too artificial. I bought the Sony SCD777 ES because I got a real good deal and for what I paid I'm not disappointed pricewise but my Sota/Rega/Benz combination sound more like live music.
I don't know what your cables are but I use Purist, Kimber KCTG and Cardas and have been happy with them. I still con't understand how cables could overcome all the design flaws of CD though. It is a bad design that has been tweaked about as much as is possible in the last twenty years so it is almost comparable with poor to moderate quality turntable now, but it will never be capable of producing what a good turntable/arm/cartrtidge can.
I'm not trying to be dogmatic but I wonder how this question is still debated. My brother-in-law Greg has a friend who is an electrical engineer who questioned the accuracy of his staements about TT vs CD so Greg had him listen to his system and then brought him to my house. The engineer was shocked to hear the quality difference. He came in convinced digital sound was better and went home muttering under his breath something about buying a turntable. This is a guy who designs and builds his own equipment for fun not some neophite who knows nothing about musical reproduction.
For him who has ears to hear... |
Sometimes this site is better than a Marx Brothers movie, and I do mean the better ones. I have owned lots of CD players, maybe too many. I guess they all must have had either the wrong DACs or just plain bad DACs. None of the CD players I have owned ever compared to vinyl regardless of which TT I owned at the time. How is it possible for a medium that only reproduces part of the music recorded to sound better than a medium which reproduces all of it. I prefer all the music to BITS of it! The BITS I have heard BYTE! |
Psychicanimal, marry me. You take me and I'll take a vacation. If I married you I'd need a vacation. Ahhhh I can see it now, you bending over a hot stove, but I can't see the stove!
Say, you better get out of here. I hear they're gonna tear you down and put up an apartment building where you're standing. You know you haven't stopped talking since you got here. You must have been vaccinated with a phonograph needle. If you don't like that you can leave in a huff, and if that's too soon you can leave in a minute and a huff.
GO and never darken my towels again! |
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Psychicanimal did you get your speakers back yet? What do you think of the mods and the filters? I have been considering the filters since TWL recommended them a few months ago. I'm curious about the results. |
I still believe that the biggest problem we have in most fields of science is that we cannot get down to the smallest or most basic elements of physical existence. We try to measure what we cannot simplify. We still don't know the beginning or the end but we try to measure the middle. |
So what conclusion can we draw from all of this anamus, or has the original question been utterly lost? |
I'm not sure what some of the above comments mean, but I did a review of Albert Porters Purist Dominus several months ago now. If I understand correctly some people don't think my system is of sufficient quality to hear subtle differences in cables. I will say again that the difference between the Purist Colossus and Dominus was not subtle in any repect. I exhaust the list of superlatives when trying to describe how HUGE it was.
Purist Dominus is by far the best interconnect I have ever heard in any system, regardless if the owner prefers tubes or SS.
The crux of the matter remains: would I find a greater improvement spending $7000 on Dominus ICs or in a $7000 amp, pre-amp, speakers, or front-end???
If I had the money I'm not sure if I would buy a better amp or the Purist ICs. That's how good they were. |
Psychicanimal, if there is little or nothing to the construction of these $7000 cables can you make a few pairs for me? I will pay you $1000 per pair for every one that sounds as good as the cable I currently have, which by the way is not as good as the Dominus. You should be able to get rich on this deal.
Why are people willing to justify the cost of expensive electronics but not cables? Electronics degrade the source signal more than cables can!
There seems to be a degree of inconsistancy here. |
It strikes me as somewhat interesting that Jung has so many fans here, inasmuch as he was a Nazi sympathizer and sometimes fan. So much for a solid philosophical base! |
How much of who Jung was do you attribute to the prevelence of occult activity taking place around him? As you know the Nazi party was more of a religious movement than a political movement. I have come to believe that the fear of Socialism and Communism was more of a pretext than a true reason for many of the events which took place between 1919 and 1945. The real reasons were much more sinister. Did the OTO, Thelema society, and numerous other similar pagan groups influence him, or he them? Who made who???
At that point in history one did not gain acceptance and move up in the political party without involvment in religious aspect of the party. What was the basis for Jungs acceptance?
Being of German descent I have studied this abberation in history, but admittedly have not studied "the man" Jung. Any opinions or fact based evidence??? |
Does this mean we're done with these deeply profound discussions of the relative value of cable? Am I on the right thread? |
It is nice that this was able to be resolved by the end of the year.
Happy New Year all!!! |
It must have been the "Peace on Earth" thing! |
What thread have you been reading 6chac? There was all kinds of excitement, even though everyone was having fun. I sure did. Differences of opinions don't make anyone wrong. They are just opinions and lots of people got to share their opinion about a broad range of topics from history, philosophy, and cables. That's how it should be! |
I don't know if anyone is still following this, but I bought a new amp. It is not a $7000 amp, but it was too darn close for comfort. After it is broken-in I will have to resolve in my own mind whether the improvement was greater with the Purist Dominus or with the new amp.
Maybe I should give up on all of this a persue the study of philosophy! |
I listed it in "my system" but I should have written it on the thread too. I bought a Krell FPB 200.
From what I've heard so far deciding which sounds better is going to be a real struggle. It's been quite a while since I had the Purist Dominus in my system.
The amp sounds much better than I expected. The dead black background and level of detail are just incredible. The sound, all across the listening range is beautiful. I only have five days on it right now. Thank goodness for the PAD burn-in disc. It really accelerates the break-in period. |
They are very heavy duty. The FPB 200 which is the smallest of the series weighs a fuzz over 100lbs. It is hard to get out of the box by yourself.
Krell has come up with some design changes that have helped with the heat issues. Even when being driven at a good pace I can put my hand on top of the amp. It's hot, but not too hot to keep my hand on.
Krell gets more heat from non-Krell audiophiles than it produces on it's own! |
TWL has told me to change to tubes also! I know everyone like different things. It just seems like for some reason there are a lot of snipers gunning for Krell. Plenty of people take pot shots at them over this issue or that.
In my opinion the FPB 200 amp sounds great. It is definately the best sounding amp I have ever owned. I have thought about doing a review. It is better than the Aragon I owned previously in every way concievable. Midrange treble and bass are all much improved. The soundstage is so much more defined. It's just better.
I'm not sure what you mean about the cable. I have a little mix of cables. Mostly Purist and Cardas, with a little Monster thrown in. I will replace the Monster once I buy new speakers. Speakers are a bigger priority. |
