I Just Know It's BS ... But I Have't Tried It Yet

Mapman, I think you missed my point on the sandbox. There are social skills that should be learned at an early age and not forgotten or abandoned when one matures. I understand the world is not a sandbox, and believe me, I can play hardball with the best of them when necessary. But I take no pleasure in doing so, nor do I derive my sense of self worth by belittling others. This is a hobby. IF the AG forum becomes a frustration or irritation, I don't need it. And, there is absolutely no reason to allow it to become so. This actually can be a "sandbox" in which we interact, learn, teach, socialize and have fun--or not.

I spent my entire adult life in science and engineering. I did see and experience first hand how things work. On rare occasions, I saw chemical reactions proceed in ways that seemed to make absolutely no sense based on the laws of chemistry and physics. No doubt, the explanation was there, but it eluded even my most brilliant (world class) colleagues and consultant professors. My point is that there is a place for empiricism. Especially amongst those of us that are far from world class EEs or physicists.

BRownsfan,

I agree with you in theory and hope for the same in reality.

"On rare occasions, I saw chemical reactions proceed in ways that seemed to make absolutely no sense based on the laws of chemistry and physics."

I see things in my companies tech labs all the time that make little sense. THey do not go "to production" as actual products or solutions until they do. To do anything otherwise would negatively affect the business and its customers.

I'd bet no products based on those unclear chemical reactions were sold either until better understood.

THe stakes in audio are lesser I suppose, so not quite the same. What's the worse that can happen? Someone ends up unhappy and feeling cheated I suppose. OR not. So its a different game there for sure. It's largely about what people think or feel which is totally subjective. The good thing about a placebo is the worst thing that can happen to you is ..... nothing. Not much downside other than money spent. Products are marketed based on this principle all the time. Nothing so special about home audio there.

So Sabai you have all the money in the world to try every tweak? I sometimes want to try these tweaks but at times I question what I'm paying for. An example is the WA Quantum chips. I can't get myself to pay $7.50 for a sticker to place on my fuse that will supposedly make great changes to my system. $7.50 for a little sticker. I'd rather put that money toward a record. Or you have stuff from Synergistic Research where you pay $400 for 4 things that look like socket wrench ends to place on your wall. This will then improve sound drastically. Sorry I just can't pull the trigger on that either.

Mapman, what you say is correct. In many respects, a movement away from statistics and toward first principle understanding and modeling provided a better level of certainty with respect to outcome. However, in early development proceeding with interim manufacture with minimal understanding is quite common. In industries where the attrition rate of developmental products is quite high, it does not make sense to spend that much money until it is clear a product is going to go to market. In my industry, a lack of understanding at a mechanistic level does not represent a potential risk to the customer.

Not only are the stakes lower in audio, but the ability and resources of the average Audiogon poster, be they skeptic or innocent gullible fool, does not permit that level of analysis. I've never seen the sort of thing Sabai is complaining about addressed via a first principles argument. It usually runs more along the lines of you're a stupid idiot, na na na na na na.

I know I won't spend my time pursuing that level of understanding in audio.

Even if such an argument were presented, it does not address the far more unpredictable human response. Assuming the tweak produces even a marginal difference in sound, that difference could be objectively either "better" or "worse," which may or may not correlate to a listener's subjective response to that difference.

I think Jedinite's comment is a good one. Some of these products could have some scientific basis, but if they are marketed behind metaphysical mumbo jumbo, I'm probably not going to bite.