Tubelike SS Power amp

No You must accept this miserable truth.
The sound of the music when initially played to make a recording, is not the sound that you hear when played back. It is impossible for your speakers to move air in the extremely complex way the combined sum effect from the waves of instruments being played simulteaneously yeilds and your mind percieves is not possible. Unless of course you have a very unusual speaker that would be a full sized orchestra of instruments arranged in the manner of the live event playing the instruments like a player piano robitically in your listening room.
Most peoples homes do not have a space equivalent to a studio recording booth and the size of live venue spaces that popular groups use only an extreme example to get ou thinking when people say . My gear sounds so nuetral it is exactly as if it is the actual thing being played live.
Please to those who think this way stop for a second and actually listen to what you say.
In order to make it possible for you to have some type of media containg the music, a disc a tape, a digital reprentation of information that is usable to remake an analog sound etc The following seems to be the only known method used. The music is played into microphones the first thing is that the receptors for the sound have a circuit some are tubed some not this information is intentionally engineered to meet parameters trhe engineer deems is desirable and I hope understands the inention of the musicians. Other criteria that is decided by the producers aiming at pleasing a specific target or demographic audience. limits imposed by other factors observed such as the presumed method of playback.
The recording engineers are coordinated with marketing and try to responding to the anticipated playback scenerios in particular the interior cabin of a car or truck with 70db of road noise and compression by the radio transmission to a dynamic range. I understand at most 10 db.
The home system uses a mastered altered version of music that has been subject to manipulation of duplication and that stereo you chose. It is not a person playing a cello like Starker or Pablo Casals or Starker or whomever is alive and willing o pop by.
It is an electronic set of devices all of which differ to some degree. The one you chose I hope was of your free will with limitations of finite budgets but otherwise I expect choices and reflect of your preferences. There is no known audio system that can play what was never put on the media you use to select the music you want to hear that can tell what the actual musical instruments and singers did and therefore be the correct system if you want accurate absolutely faithful live sound out of your system. At the same time rebuilding your listening room and seating position and so on. This applys to each time you choose a song any record recording even tracks you want to here.
I certainly hope you have had the good fortune to have made your own choices with regard to the equipment you use. I did and made some bad picks but always thought I was going to hear what I liked when I had heard that equipment while auditioning it. I know pretty much what I hope to get ...what my subjective likes are and know that what I choose makes a difference. It is silly to even argue that audio systems are different sounding. It is you who decides as I said that you can afford fit in your space or whatever defined limits exist that you had some choices, this is the case.
I am generally never this assertive I always belived there is room for disagreement. Now I say my system is colored and that was my intent. I like it that way. The holier than thou insane audiophiles who insist that there is a true better or more correct choice and the psychotic belief that they know that the system they put together is not some approximation of an actual live performance but honestly beleive it is the same as the live event. Need medication for their delusion.
Tubes are as TVAD said all about imagery the soundscape. And no SS no matter what even the adored truly nice guy Nelson Pass knows that the tube amp is wildly distorted compared to an SS amp. I know this I like this type of distortion it is the right ordered one that is pleasurable not overdriven clipped horror. I want a tube amp and if you like that sound stop being afraid of the "tube" hassle it is trivial compared to the pleasure. the investment spent in realizing that younwill need to replace the tubes or may need advice on tweaking the tone a little by rolling the same tube type is worth it if you are serious otherwise please don't ask me to validate your irrational overhyped fears anbd agree with you that you can get the tube magic from any SS amp. You can't and I would take some time listening to real tube power amps and all tube integrateds. No hybrids that is a silly joke and the incredibly ridiculously uninformed "a tube any place in the chain will make the system sound the same an all tube system . That is just plain false.
I will lend you a freakin tube amp to use so you know what you are saying by "tube amp sound". Otherwise put non your boots and do the honest thing and admit I want a tube amp because I know what they do and I like it . Or say I guess I am uncertain and spend time learning enough to say I want an SS amp that sounds like this one and stop the blather.

dang...

From Tvad:

"A tube preamp used with a solid state amp will not produce the same magic."

What does everyone else think? I have one system with a SS pre and tube amp, but my other system is the reverse and I find they aren’t that different – at least in terms of tonal balance, meaty midrange etc.

Having owned Pass XA (fantastic) and most recently CAT/Atma-sphere/Music Reference RM9SE tube amps (fantastic) there is no doubt Tvad is right, the Pass gear is tube-like in the way he describes it, but it still doesn't recreate space the way tube amps do, I suspect it is impossible for SS gear to do it. That being said, the Pass gear is great SS gear that is a perfectly reasonable alternative to a tube amp that you can live with. SS does things tubes can't do quite as well too, it is all choices. But I've yet to hear an SS amp that really does tube sound, if I found it I would own SS. I also don't think a tube preamp will recreate that sense of space with an SS amp, it seems it is part of the way the amp interacts with the speaker.

A tube preamp used with a solid state amp will not produce the same magic.

As what, a solid state preamp with a tube amp? My experience with ss and tube preamps and ss and tube power amps indicate a very different conclusion here. My focus has always been to assemble a system that excelled in the portrayal of space, ambiance and decays; detail and coverage at the frequency extremes were only relevant if I got the 3D issues first. And still today I have not heard any system with a SS preamp that comes close to this area like the few great tube preamps I have owned or compared at dealers. If somebody knows of a ss preamp or line stage that excels here, I'd sure like to hear about it.

The only thing that gives you the tube personality the wonder and magical soundscape not fuzzy warm tone its all about the sound layering image yes tone but not rolled off slow droopy sound. they are the only thing that give you tube sonics that is tube power amps. And no no no for the trillionth time a tube pre is not able to do it.

This is absolute nonsense. And after you have found that most coveted tube amp (with all the glorious harmonic structure and depth) to match your speakers, please drop in a Classe, Spectral, Klyne, Krell or Levinson (Madrigal) line stage. Compare this to something like the Aria WV or Aesthetix Callisto tube line stage and take note that nearly all the magic you paid for with that amp is now gone with any of these ss line stages in the chain.

Upon hearing the ARC SP-8 and later the SP-10 that I purchased in the mid 1980s, I became well aware of the significance that tube preamps play to convey the dimensionality of the music. Even in the mid 80s of a system with a Linn TT, Vandersteen II and an Adcom amp, it was very clear how the SP-10 destroyed the Krell, Klyne and Spectral preamps of that era to simply bring on the portrayal of space. Sure, bringing in the ARC amps at the time, D115 that I heard, brought on greater magic. But putting a ss preamp in the system with the D115 resulted in a most sterile and boring sound. I would have taken the SP-10 and a budget ss amp any day of the week than any ss preamp in its place with a tube amp.

Just as an experiment a couple years ago, I tried my Aesthetix Callisto Sig with one PS, first with my CAT JL-3 amps and then the budget Adcom 555 I bought back in 1987. The CAT amps are expensive for a reason, but the Adcom with the Callisto was more impressive than I expected. The Classe preamp (either DR-5 or 6) I had been auditioning at the time coupled with the CAT amps clearly had far more detail, clarity and extension at the frequency extremes than the Callisto/Adcom, but this latter pair conveyed harmonics and structures the former pair could not match. And it confirmed to me once again how destructive a solid state preamp can be when it comes to the portrayal of space. The speakers were the exceptional Talon Khorus, a far underrated speaker.

A tube preamp with tube PS's is an absolute must in what I need a system to do. The sad commentary is that only a handful of tube preamps out there that I have heard in my system or in direct shootouts at a dealer even remotely came close to the dimensional "magic" often associated with tubes. And sadly, this continues on today. The bottom line is that if you're not hearing the magic that a tube preamp provides, you've got the wrong tube preamp. If you are basing any conclusions on a preamp loaded with stock Sovtek, EH or JJ tubes, coming to any conclusion about the preamp's capability is silly at best. And from my experience, a preamp with a tube regulated/rectified power supply is mandatory to get that last level of 3D performance here.

No hybrids that is a silly joke and the incredibly ridiculously uninformed "a tube any place in the chain will make the system sound the same an all tube system.

Hmmmm........I own an updated Counterpoint NPS400 hybrid amp: 6922 input, tube rectifier and ss output stage. Compared to the tube amps I have owned ARC VT130, Wolcott 220 and CAT JL-3's, while owning the NPS400, the NPS400 is very very impressive in how it handles the 3D....and with a not so easy load like the SoundLab A1.

Mechans: I'd love to put the Aria WV5 XL tube preamp with the Counterpoint NPS400 hybrid amp or a smaller Rowland ss amp against your reference tube amp and any solid state preamp of your choice and compare the result driving anything like Magnepan series 3 or 20, the big SoundLabs or easy speaker loads like a Talon or Proac, etc. But I get to pick the music: piano, acoustic guitar, vocals. And yes, the Roger Waters "Amused to Death" LP would be fine too. Mechans, I think you'd be quite surprised at the results.

First and foremost, the solid state amps lack the three dimensionality of the tube amps I have owned.

I would not argue with this, but who cares unless you have a top-performing tube line stage in the system as well. Without this, your coveted 3D was already out the window.

Sadly, there are far too many tube amps out there that fail the 3D test miserably all on their own. And it is not always due to a mismatch of the amp to the speaker. They are simply bad designs or designed with that intended sonic signature.

There is a lot of gear out there, tube and ss, that get high ratings by the reviewers, that I have dismissed in a matter of seconds because it fails the 3D test. If someone can not experience an incredible level of depth, ambiance and decays, structure, etc., as conveyed through piano, sax, and female voice, in a system with a tube preamp (line stage) and all solid state elsewhere, there's a very good chance they don't have a top-performing preamp that excels in these areas. It's just too easy to blame everything on the remaining solid state gear.

What does everyone else think?

Obviously, quite differently here: If I wanted to keep tubes in my system to a minimum, I'd start at the line stage, then onto the phono stage and/or Dac and then finally the amp(s).