high power tube amps vs ss

05-20-13: Csontos
I would venture to guess that Al, but especially Ralph believe it's not possible to arrive at life-like sound without tubes given some of their prior posts. To that end I would like very much for either/both to cite some tube amps that are as fast as any ss amps they've heard so far. Imo, you can't get there without serious speed in an amp.

Hi Peter,

No, I for one would certainly not make any such claim. In part because my listening experience with solid state amps during the past decade or two has been minimal. Prior experience led me in the direction of tubes, with which I've been very happy, and in recent times I've simply had no interest in high end solid state. And my speaker preferences have always tended to be in the direction of those having impedance characteristics that are benign and tube-friendly.

For examples of tube amps that are "fast," for starters consider Ralph's OTL amps. Although I haven't had the pleasure of hearing any of them, by all accounts I've ever seen they have that characteristic in spades.

And among tube amps having transformer coupled outputs, my VAC Renaissance 70/70 Mk III certainly doesn't disappoint. While I realize that you "don't care about published specs," I'll mention that they are rated as being down only 0.5 db at 90 kHz on a small signal basis, and at 58 kHz at full power. At -3 db those ratings are 103 kHz and 85 kHz, respectively. Not very different than the very highly regarded Pass XA.5 series solid state amps, which are rated to 100 kHz (with no specification of power level or how many db down that is based on).

Yes, I know, a few solid state amps, such as those made by Spectral, go out to 1 or 2 MHz or more, but whether or not that is overkill, and whether or not it may even be sonically counter-productive, are certainly debatable.

As a point of reference, I'll add that I frequently compare listening results between my amp + speakers and my Stax electrostatic headphones + Stax solid state headphone amp. I doubt that anyone would ever accuse the Stax components of being "slow," yet I am not disappointed with the "speed" of the amp + speaker combination.

Tubegroover, thank you most kindly for your expression of appreciation.

Best regards,
-- Al

I understand that speed and other sonic parameters are subjective and individually just personal perceptions. I've found good tube power amplifiers to present a wonderful realistic sense of timimg, pace and musical flow.The presentation is very fluid with well preserved continuity. The two Spectral based systems I heard (if they're considered typical of a"fast" SS amplifier) were not even close as far as retaining the believable and natural musical flow and timing.The sound was mechanical and artificial in character But again, this is just my own observation.
Regards,

Csontos, I think that I might understand where some of the tube skepticism among the solid state crowd comes from. Quite often, tubes are used in applications that are less than ideal. I hear them all the time. That’s not to say that a mistake was made. A person has the right to consider only the elements of music that are important to him, and choose a tube amplifier/speaker combination accordingly. But while this person is satisfied with his tube application, others of us might listen to his system and hear musical compromises that we wouldn’t make for ourselves. What Atmasphere, Almarg and others are trying to tell you, is that many of the shortcomings that you perceive to be inherent to tubes, are more likely to be common application flaws.

Dammit! Al, I would love to spend an evening with you listening and drinking. Here's my question Al. I have never tried tube amps and I am fearful that I would miss some SLAM and Impact of the presentation. Does your system belt it out pretty loud and non fatiguing? OR does it seem to be very detailed and airy, but when you turn it up loud, can you listen for long periods? (I guess loud would be above the 35w range)I would love to hear some good tube amps with a different speaker that works well with tubes. There are no stores I can visit nearby. My Dynaudio Contour 3.0s are really great.But they are 86-87db and require a lot of power to open up. My MC352 can drive them over 350w easily and the speakers are rated at 200w. I was thinking of switching to a pair of 70w monoblock tube amps. but I really dont think my dynaudios would like that. of course I have nothing to support this really.what do you think AL. Am I missing out on goosebump city,or is my hybrid system the best I can hope for with these speakers.

Hi Matt,

I have no experience with Dynaudio speakers, but my instinct would be to proceed with caution before going to tube amplification with them. In addition to the comments by Ralph and Mapman just above, I would emphasize that high quality high powered tube amplification tends to be quite expensive. And you clearly need lots of watts.

Based on the impedance curve of your speakers, shown in Stereophile's review here, I would consider their 86 db/2.83V/1m sensitivity to be roughly equivalent to 84 db/1Watt/1m. At typical listening distances (say 10 to 12 feet or so) that would mean that 70 watts into both speakers would produce a maximum SPL of around 96 db or so. While that is adequate for most listeners when listening to highly compressed rock music, I suspect it would be very disappointing with a lot of material having wide dynamic range (i.e., a wide difference in volume between the loudest and the softest notes).

My listening is about 90% classical (including a lot of wide dynamic range symphonic material), 5% rock, and 5% miscellaneous. I've measured some of the classical material I listen to as reaching 105 db at my listening position, which my 98 db/1W/1m speakers and 70W amp handle comfortably.

Although I haven't heard them, if you do want to consider tube amplification you may want to look into the higher powered models from Rogue Audio. Some of them provide close to 200 watts, at relatively reasonable prices, and seem to receive generally favorable user comments.

Best regards,
-- Al