life without audio dealers

With regard to recommendations, there's simply no point to a review if it's completely subjective and no recommendation is made. Recommendations (particularly best of listings) are an invaluable tool in assisting purchasers in whittling down available products to demo. Recommendations also permit a consumer to determine the credibility they assign a reviewer in the case of future purchases. If Reviewer A likes x and y products and I try such products and find them not to my liking and/or poor performing I then know to give very little weight to any other reviews from such reviewer and vice versa. So while your ears are the ultimate arbiters, recommendations are an invaluable part of the audition process.

With regard to conflict of interest, in an ideal world, that may be the case, but in the real world no store carries all products/all people are biased, so to single out audio dealers regarding conflict of interest is a peculiar argument to make. There is simply no substitute for a consumer doing some research prior to a purchase; particularly with the wealth of information available on the internet. A knowledgeable consumer is his own best friend and can much more easily gauge the validity of a salesperson's comments.

mrtennis said:

this hobby needs more small manufacturers who offer in-home audition and less audio dealers. ket [sic] the consumer decide for him/herself without influence from a person who has a vested interest in selling something. how can such a person be objective about a product he/she doesn't sell ?

and...

the best an audio retailer can do is lend gear at the request of the consumer, perhaps for a small fee. then the consumer can buy it direct from the manufacturer.

First... the small manufacturer is going to be, if anything, less objective in comparing his/her products against products he/she does not make. If potential audio buyers do not need the advisory-type of hand-holding, then they do not need it and the existing brick-and-mortar plus internet plus direct-from-mfr plus audiogon plus whatever model allows them to do so. Others want that help (it's called 'service') and I bet there are many people on this forum who once used a b&m dealer and got something out of it, even if they have 'graduated' to a new level now.

Second... there is not 'just one' true audio system for any given person. There are lots of appropriately put together and matched systems out there at any given budget level. Dealers should not be expected to carry all possible systems, just some - acting as a filter for what is out there in the world. And if people don't like what the dealer carries, too bad for the dealer.

Third... any number of threads here have produced screaming hordes who were upset that a dealer wanted to charge for a demo. Dealers are not Blockbuster. If the whole dealer system moved to something like an "interior designer" type of economic model, where the "stereo design consultant" (not "dealer") could provide anything, and do so at a 20% discount to retail (while still taking a 10% spread), then the 'SDC' could be objective (until the 10% creeped to 15-20%?) but that would require something like equipment libraries where SDCs borrowed the equipment from their regional library and then set something up in the home of the potential buyer.... then because it's a big world, there would have to be a bunch of these depots, and then, well, rather than schlepping 5-8 different pairs of speakers over to a customer's house to have him listen, he could listen in a listening room in that regional equipment-lending depot, or there might be several listening rooms. Oops, this is beginning to sound like a brick & mortar dealer. FWIW, I think the idea is interesting, but who pays for the hundreds of little lending depots around the country? Is there something like a CostCo warehouse of audio equipment outside of every medium-sized city in the USA?

There are lots of people who do not have access to years of experience of going to shows, or time to spend hours or days at the next one, the experience which would allow one to filter down to the top 5 systems of a given price that one would want to audition at one's home. If I wanted to buy that experience, what would that cost me in hours? in dollars? If I wanted to bypass that with a dealer I trusted, would it be worthwhile to pay cash for the dealer's service to instantly get some ways up a ladder? Lots of people would say yes. But those people might not 'waste' their time here on Audiogon...

I tend to agree with MrTennis on this topic. As an analogy, consider digital photography. Look at dpreviews . com and study the style of the "reviwers". They patently will not tell you what they would buy, but how the products perform; both measurement and subjective viewing experience. Digital photography has no real dealers per se and you can buy direct from many makers. While they offer a unique service that the internet can not, dealers bias the transaction. An audiophile needs to audition at home with as little stress as possible. Must sleep now...

After reading these posts I would like to add that if the manufacturer became the primary source of sales for the audiophile/customer, then we would all lose out. The reasons are several, first off, the direct sales will have to also rely on stocking merchandise or the one off specialty designed products where the lead times are long already may result in even longer waits for such products because the direct seller must now cater to more people, thereby increasing workforce to ramp up production or shipment and delivery. These come with added costs to the company.

I think the demographic of people who would go to the dealer has changed due to the internet and people becoming more savvy way to spend their money. This does not preclude them from wanting to spend their money. Suppose a manufacturer states their is only one direct sale point of contact, then what would people do to audition products across the states. I as the direct seller now have to arrange to box, ship and insure a product to some other state to allow someone to demo a product (in which case I support home demos 100%), however I now have incurred an extra cost, these costs will go up exponentially as more people desire to listen to products at home. I will in effect have to track more products coming and going plus deal with the insurance claims. Some manufacturers that are small to begin with will not be able to support this financially while the larger ones will. So we will see more mass market products able to be demoed easier versus the small manufacturer production base. I personally do not want to wait long to demo products either, however, we must realize, that we cannot influence small manufacturers to simply drop their direct dealer network. I have been dealing with the same dealer for almost 10 years and now have a reputation with both the dealer and manufacturer as I have some unique requests to experiment using the equipment I have purchased and going to trade shows and talking with the manufacturer directly to tell them about their products. This has led me to be on their "list" of allowed customers to do home demo's with their high end equipment. But, I have to wait another 2 months for the home demo equipment to make its round to me because other people are also home doing the home demo on the same product. This is a very small manufacturer and they do not mass produce, but what they do is in great demand and people are willing to wait to get a demo. If they were to build more home demo products, this would take away from the availability of off the shelf products they already sell or add costs to production to hire new people. It is a tradeoff. So direct sales do work, but the smaller companies will not be able to support the demand of all customers leaving some people just as frustrated as with a dealer network.

Just a few more facts about small businesses, that could effect local communities if they are active participants in events, programs or local hires providing jobs:

#1 Small Business is America’s No. 1 Job Creator

Small businesses represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms, employ half of all private sector employees and pay 45 percent of total U.S. private payroll. Small business has generated 60 to 80 percent of net new jobs annually over the last decade. (U.S. Small Business Administration, Office of Advocacy)

#2 Small Business is a loud voice in Public Affairs and Politics

Disproportionately large percentages of small-business owners are registered to vote (95%), usually do vote (84%), and run for elective office (3%). (NFIB National Small Business Poll: Political Participation)

#3 Small Business is a Steady Part of the American Work Force…and will continue to be.

Forty-six (46) percent of small employers intend to never fully retire. Another 23 percent will retire at 65 or older with half that number retiring at 70 or older. Sixty (60) percent of those intending full retirement at some point expect to phase-out, rather than to retire abruptly. (NFIB National Small Business Poll: Retirement)

#4 Small Business Contributes to Local Communities

Ninety-one (91) percent of small employers (small-business owners) contributed to their community in the last year through volunteering, in-kind contributions, and/or direct cash donations. About 41 percent contributed all three ways. The estimated average value of contributions is $6,600 per small employer, contributing and not, for a total of roughly $40 billion . (NFIB National Small Business Poll: Contributions to Community)

I really cannot see a good business model without the benefit of the small business. If we were to have only direct sales, then we would displace a viable workforce, adding unemployment, I know increasing sales directly implies that we will add or create jobs at the manufacturer, but tell that to someone in the middle of nowhere where they depended on the income for survival. That business would surely go under and effect the some people, while the manufacturer would likely increase work force lets say in Washington State, far away from the dealer that was.

Enough of my thoughts….
Happy New Year,
Audioquest4life

there is a difference between infoirm and recommend.

the inform is like the "what". it tells the reader what the product is doing in a stereo system. what is the relevance of then adding : "i like what the product is doing". a reader can make his own decision if he is told how a product performs.

it is like the expression "you report, i'll decide".

with information, a decision can be made. the indication of preference does not inform, rather it persuades.

i would rather have the reader make up his mind than try to influence him/her. read my reviews and tell me what you think. you can read them at audiophilia.com .

the most important function of a dealer is making the product available for sale. it would seem that this should be sufficient for the educated consumer. also provide an opportunity for home audition. a dealer needs to have one demo of each product he carries. withn such a model, i can see the viability of dealers.