In case anyone is interested, I was able to integrate Sonos connects without issue after messing with for a couple of days. In short, connects should run wireless and not share the same router (wired) as the Rock. I am not sure why that is, but I found this piece of advice on another forum. Also I changed the wireless channel of the connects. Once those 2 steps occurred I have not had any issues. IN fact, the queuing up of music is extremely fast, much faster than Sonos UI.
Thus far I really like Roon.
Now the dilemma of if I should get a MQA/DSD capable DAC.
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I had an old NUC around I hadn't been using - about a year ago I bought a Macbook Pro and the need for a windows based system is no longer needed. Today I updated the BIOS, formatted the drive and made the NUC into a Room Rock. I have the Room Rock connected to a Synology NAS drive, 2 4TB drives used exclusively for music. The library is slow to analyze and I have had to squelch the library processes to improve performance, but other than that I have had no issues with streaming.
I have integrated my Sonos Connects and will use those in secondary listening areas. For my main listening room I haven't completely figured that out. I have a resolution cantata that is not Room compliant, but that doesn't mean it won't work - just not tested. I will experiment with that and see if I can integrate.
My initial thought after 1 day is it is a lot of $ for the info Roon provides. It definitely improves upon the streaming experience, but it is still streaming and I find myself putting the music on and not using Roon's features.
I suppose streaming will never be as intimate as vinyl where I consciously grab a record, choose side A or B, look at the cover art, read the liners and then either flip, put away, or chose a new record in 15-20 minutes.
I spoke to soon - After 4 hours of streaming I get a message similar to , "Roon lost control of the audio device". I simply hit play
again and music started to stream. Doing a quick google search this seems to occur quite often. I have 13 more days to analyze, but will not keep if Roon is at all fiddly.
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If all I care about is sound quality (not interface) and I am looking to feed a MSB Renderer (no DSP use) overt ethernet, would people recommend Roon run on Innuos Zenith MK3 with isolated ethernet or the new Aurender ACS10 with double isolated ethernet?
Again the application is a server with ethernet output to Dac Renderer with no DSP where sound quality is only criteria.
Thanks! |
I want to feed my MSB Renderer with the best sounding Ethernet feed possible. I am looking at the isolated Ethernet approach used in the Aurender ACS10 and the Zenith MK3. Based strictly on sound over isolated ethernet, which of these three are best: - Aurender ACS10
- Zenith MK3 using Innuos’s software
- Zenith MK3 using Roon
Thanks. Paul |
Thanks thyname. The dealer let me use a Roon Nucleus until the Zen 3 is in. I love how simple this unit is to use with a Roon and a Tidal. Took me 5 minutes! Nice.
However, the sound is just average and nothing special. My old tricked out Windows based computer with SOTM Usb card sounded better for sure. Sure hope the Zen 3 is a huge step up as I already sold my computer/server.
I wish a had a LPS to power the Nucleus. I bet that would help greatly. |
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Just purchased the Innuos Zen 3 with 1 TB of storage. Will use it with my SOTM TXUltrausb reclocker and SOTM 500 power supply.
Hopefully will get it mid February. |
mrdon are you looking for a server or a streamer?
The Naim Ndx 2 oor a 555 are expensive streaming dacs, the NDX is $7500 for example. The Lumin D2 is excellent but it also includes a dac while the U1 does not.
The Aurender and Innuous products are mostly streamers, although the Innuous Mini has analog outputs and the Aurender A1 has its own built in dac.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Ok, so far it appears Aurender was kicked to the curb at some point in favor of the Innous then Lumin D2 or Lumin U1 in that order... Then I heard NDX 2 XPS 2 or a 555 [Nad?} which I am now going to look at.. I was favoring the Lumin D2 for the fact it has AirPlay and updates which the Innous? Hey
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Twoch, Roon is one big boat anchor? What are you smoking Roon rocks, if you notice more and more manufacturers are making their products Roon compatible endpoints, we just put out a new Krell K300i integrated amplifier for example and I can seemlessly send music to it from Roon as well as being able to send music to dozens of other devices all over my store.
Sure some people are not Roon fans, and yes it does suck to have to pay for software but Roon has a huge ton of advantages.
You may also forget we do sell and really like Aurnender products, and they make a fantastic little server, what we pointed out is that not having Roon compatibility is hurting their sales, their hardware is excellent which unit a client prefers is up to them.
Roon is getting more and more traction because it is fantastic software, if you are only going to stream Tidal or Qbuzz, or Spotify or Internet radio then the Conductor app is fine and it is free it does have some nice features. We do like the built in Airplay function of the Aurender servers and wish the Innuous would have that.
Thyname we do agree with you, we sell: Lumin, Aurender, Baetis, Innuous, Naim, and Nad servers and streamers plus a whole lot more, the Innuous is one of our absolute favorites for all the reason mentioned in this thread, is it perfect no it isn't but the company continues to make better and better products.
Mrdon the Calia is supposed to be an excellent dac so unless you are unhappy with its performance I would concentrate on the sever part.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ: Innuous, Aurender dealers
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Troy / Dave is 100% right to recommend Innuos! It is a great server, one of the best out there, especially for the money.
And to be clear, you don't need Roon to use Innuos ZEN or ZEN Mini or ZENith. You can use use it with SqueezeLite endpoint, or any UPnP and DLNA streamer / controller.
If you do use Roon, it is an excellent Roon Server, AND, an excellent Roon Endpoint too. Something to keep in mind too. One solution for Serving / Streaming.
I have the new ZENith MK3 for a few weeks now, and I am very happy with it. It is so easy to use, and excellent support from the company (when I needed some help with Backup to my NAS they did a remote session and fixed it). |
@mrdon if I may offer a response to your question: How do you feel about the Lumin D2 or Lumin U1. I already have a DAC (Prism Sound Callia) Placing the U1 in front of your Callia would work great. The D2 offers analog outputs, and will sound different enough from the Callia that it really becomes a question of your personal preference. If you preferred the D2 then you could sell or repurpose the Callia. If you preferred the Callia, you'd be spending a little bit extra for analog outputs you wouldn't be using and giving up the other digital outputs found on the U1 (or U1 Mini). In addition, while the Callia accepts digital inputs from a variety of sources the LUMIN units can only operate as a streamer. For example you could not hook up a CD player or your TV's optical output to the D2 for it to act like a DAC. |
I'm not so sure about this
guy Troy He chimes in too push some Zen Server he is selling that is the greatest thing . But the Roon is just one big old P O S big boat anchor
Big Troy what some ppl. do now a daz no class just to make some $$
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It's a very difficult 'section of our systems' to get fair comparisons and importantly end results that can be qualified. There are too many factors and too many ways to go about this. |
I denied the Aurender against the Auralic Aries a few years ago and much preferred the Auralic which I purchased. The Aurender gimmicks just didn’t do it for me. Also, the DS Lightning app was far superior to the Aurender app. A year ago I decided I didn’t want any type of server in my dedicated audio room, didn’t want to use usb any longer, so I went with a dac with a network card using Ethernet and running Roon on a Mac mini, no need for the nucleus. Far superior than a music server connected to a dac using usb and Roon is far superior in functionality. |
@audiotroy,
I have been looking into Aurender and oc course i then heard the name Innous being mentioned. How do you feel about the Lumin D2 or Lumin U1. I already have a DAC (Prism Sound Callia) & streaming Tidal (minus Roon for the time being) to to PS 700 M's..
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I have a Innuos Zenith Mark III and use it as a Roon Core. I have it hardwired with an ethernet cable. I output using a WyWire Silver USB to a Lyngdorf 3400. I've integrated Tidal with Roon and my digital library. I sorta wish the Lyngdorf would do the final MQA unfold but, really, I'm very happy with the SQ. IMO, the Lyngdorf DAC is excellent.
I really enjoy the ability to search out new artists on Tidal, read their bios, and see the lyrics. The Roon Radio function is awesome as well. The Masters (MQA) on Tidal almost always improve over the standard redbook versions. |
Larryl we have the Ndx 2 xps 2 combo which comes close to the 555.
Our favorite streamer the lumin x1 it sounds amazing.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
I will still use the SOTM combo. Thanks for the additional info! My current server sounds very good and I do hope the Innuos sounds at least as good. Just won’t know until I get it I guess. I have my current Sound Science Music Vault Ultra II pretty tricked out and analog sounding. I am intentionally curious and want to try the Innuous. |
Very nice! It seems like you know what you are doing.
You can still use your SOtM txulraUSB / sPS-500 combo on your ZEN USB out to your DAC. Most likely it will provide further improvement vs. simply USB out from ZEN.
If you can afford it, go for ZENith instead of ZEN. I demoed both at my dealer before deciding on the ZENith.
Another heads up, although by a long shot: Innuos will come up with a separate beefed up USB interface similar to that found on Statement. It was on a video the Nuno posted comparing Statement with ZENith MK2 SE, and I also confirmed with him directly via email. Release date: unknown |
audiotroy,
You mentioned that you carry Naim servers as well. Have you tried the 555 server, and if so, what do you think about it? |
I use a Lyngdorf 2170 heavily modified by me. Also use the SOTM TXultrausb and 500 power supply also modifidied. My own brand of USB cables and upgraded Poe based DC cables.
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@grannyring : what is your DAC? |
@grannyring Bill, I think you can. Let us know how it goes.
I'd love a one box solution, but experience suggests separation of the two functions for sound quality reasons and for avoiding any hiccups. I say this despite not utilizing DSP or other advanced Roon functionality. |
I sure hope I can take Innuos at their word on this Roon DSP question. Stephen Healy sure gave an strong and certain positive answer. |
The comparison is the sound quality. I am willing to keep the window based computer as a Roon core and the SOTM Trifeca as the endpoint. The Innuos allows me to sell the windows computer. The two can be compared from this standpoint. Just two different ways to accomplish great sound with the Innuos being less expensive. Will it sound as good? Not sure. Perhaps not, but still a nice jump from what I have.
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William:
I think you won't be disappointed with Innuos. They are great!
I am a bit skeptical on using them for heavy DSP duties. Still.
And I don't know how the comparison is relevant with the SOtM trifecta. None of those components is a Server. Innuos' main function is as a server, with streaming capabilities as a "bonus", and a good one.
Good luck with your purchase. I love my ZENith MK3! |
Very impressed with Innuos response time! Goodness they are very good. Here is what they just said to me....
”Hi William,
Well spotted, we will need to update this as this would have been relevant to the MkII series.The new Mk3 units can handle DSD128 upsampling with no problems at all.”
I will be buying one for sure as I will no longer need my windows based computer.
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I don’t bait ever. I just asked an honest question as I am deciding between the Zen and SOTM Trifeca. You must not know me🙂, By the way it seems like a very good and reasonable question. Innuos replied to me saying it will handle up to DSD 256, not 512. I upsample all files right now with a powerful windows based server. Looking to improve SQ and still have this ability. I am sure others would also like to know.
Here is the answer I was given directly from Innuos,
“Hi William,
The ZEN Mk3 will be capable of all DSP tasks up to DSD upsampling 256. It will not support up to 512 however. The processor noise created by such an intensive task is so great that it actually outweighs the benefits of the upsampling to begin with - we find it keeping it close to bitperfect as possible is best.”
The info on the website conflicts with what I was told directly. I will point this out and see what they say. I hope the website just has outdated info. They seems quite confident in their direct response to me. I just want DSD128 as that sounds best to me in my room and rig.
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Is this a question or a bait @grannyring
From Innuos website: ————- ROON LIMITATIONS WITHIN INNUOS SERVERS
innuOS Servers currently use Intel Quad-Core CPUs which are powerful enough for music server duties whilst maintaining the system fanless and limiting the amount of power-noise polluting the audio system. The main task requiring very heavy computational requirements is the DSP processing within Roon. With the current hardware, upsampling CD-Quality files to DSD128 and DSD256 will not work properly. Upsampling CD-Quality files to DSD64 works when this DSP setting is being used stand-alone, as well as upsampling to PCM 384KHz. Combination of DSP settings which require more computational power than currently present will result in stuttering music.
If you plan to use DSP on Roon heavily, we suggest to install Roon as scenario 3, using the innuOS server as a Roon player only and using a powerful PC (Windows/Mac) as the Roon Core server.
—————- Innuos is being 100% honest about it. Draw your own conclusions. I do use my ZENith MK3 as a Roon Core, works perfect, but I only do simple DSP to PCM up to 192. |
Question on Innuos Zen mk3. Audio Doctor may know the answer.
I use a Roon DSP and need my server to be powerful enough to run the various Roon DSP options including upsampling to DSD, EQ settings etc...
Will the Zen mk3 handle this? My current windows based PC does and never drops below 3.2x. I want to replace it with the Zen for sound quality, but not if the Zen is not powerful enough for Roon DSP.
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Most likely user error. Nucleus is pretty much set it and forget it with no maintenance whatsoever
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I bought the Roon Nucleus $1,400 model two months ago.
Paid for the Roon Service and Tidal HiRez .
If I was doing it again I would have bought the Bluenote? 2i at $500.
Reason, this technology is evolving everyday. I will likely toss this
unit in 2 years when some better more reliable, equipment is available. Not just talking SQ but user friendliness. Seems an issue with something each time I turn it on. And I am ethernet hardwired to the router.
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I will say i recently connected an Ideon Audio 3R Renascence between by Imac and Dac (Prism Sound Callia) Within a short time it dropped out meaning i had to disconnect and reconnect so it would recognize the Dac again. It was also pretty warm to the touch but that was to be expected. This dropout happened several times before i just disconnected it and returned the item. I never had the time with it to experience how much improvement the system gained, too bad. So, all of the talk about noisy USB connections is with merit. On the other hand, i see that Aurender and others have addressed that to some extent, why else would a streamer be a viable choice if the noisy/jitter factor wasn't addressed.. |
Anybody with these dedicated music servers ever compared or done a shootout with a Ethernet-2-USB converter. The reason I ask is that I have a very busy (though audibly quiet) work computer running ROON server and I stream my music to my DAC via a mid-priced Sonare microRendu. No matter how I stress my computer I cannot make the sound on my system to degrade. It seems to me that the music bits over Ethernet are immune to the computer noise with a Ethernet-2-USB converter. I also use ROON's up-sampling because I have the computer horsepower.
My impression was that these expensive music servers being mentioned on this thread are all computers under the hood with a dedicated OS to curb internal noise pollution of the server. Now what if the server's badness for audio quality was eliminated via a Ethernet-2-USB adapter.
I ain't preaching here just asking since I have not gone down the road of demoing these expensive "computers". Anybody done a comparison? |
@audiotroy,
I understand your predicament as a dealer for two very good competing products in the same category. So why not jump on the Roon bandwagon and promote the Innous over Aurender.
The point I was trying to make is when files in its native resolution sounds so good, you don’t need that upsampling crap. If you’re a purist, you want to hear or watch your content in its native form....none of that upscaled or upsampled garbage.
I can clearly see you rather promote a brand that has a pedigree of several discontinued models in such a short span and as pointed out by @grannyring, don’t have a handle on production and demand realities. Good going! |
Seriously tho, Audio Doc, If I already have a Aurender and external DAC connected via USB 2.0 using the Conductor app How can I incorporate ROON? Also, If my main listening taste is Classical music is ROON even worth pursuing?
Matt M
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Audio Doctor, I dont know anything about ROON really, I just wanted you to tell me ...Thanks :-)
Matt M
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We have three on order, most new orders are shipping in three weeks.
We can always lend you a server if you need one.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
How long a wait Audio Doctor if I order an Innuous today? Their site still suggests they are not filling orders. |
Lalik man it is nice to see you love your N10 but some of your comments are totally off, "the N10 has no peer other then the N20," I guess all of those people who are building other reference streamers such as Innuous, Antipodes, Baetis, SGM and others are making totally inferior products?
As per upsampling only the N10 and N20 offers that with Roon based servers you have upconversion and transcoding available at many more price points and certain dac's sound better as higher bit rates or better with DSD files, so with comprehensive upsampling all of your files from 16/44k files can sound like high resolution files.
As per 480p to 4k it is more like 1080p to 4k and that is what a lot of highly rated projectors have been doing including JVC and Epson and we have an Epson 4k Laser projector which actually uses the same wobulation technique and our 1080p content shown via their upconversion technlogy looks amazing.
We love Aurender and they make fantastic products but don't kid yourself that Roon compatibiity isn't hurting their sales and that many people prefer the comprehensive feature set of a Roon based server.
It all comes down to what you are comparing a product to.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Aurender and Innuous dealers
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Ah OK @grannyring I thought you were asking me, as your post was immediately after mine. I admit the Audiogon Forum format is confusing, as there are no features like "reply" or "quote". My bad.
So you were asking @audiotroy ? |
+1, mattmiller.
IMHO, Aurender is not missing on anything by not having ROON compatibility. The conductor app is second to none and it’s ease of use easily trumps anything else out there. I have owned N10 for 4 plus years, it’s outstanding sound quality has no peer (other than W20). The customer service is top notch and they are very receptive to customer feedback. The brand has stood tall and remained unshaken despite of stiff competition from Antipodes and Lumin.
I am currently subscribed to Qobuz and many of my favorites tracks in 24bit/192kHz sounds outstanding through my N10 > DA2 DAC. I have some experience with upsampling files. You can certainly take a 16 bit/44.1kHz file and try to upsample it and decide for yourself if it floats your boat. Upsampling is like compensating for other shortcomings in your system or components, you can’t possibly extract any more information if it’s not there to begin with....it’s like taking a 480p video and upscaling it to 4K 😉
I can only suggest OP to spend some time with Conductor and Roon based hardware at a local dealer and then decide.
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I was not asking you thyname. I was asking the dealer who is posting here. |
.docknow many people purchase the more expensive version which is $2500
If you add a linear power supply you are approaching the Zen.
We would love to do that shootout. |
@audiotroy My Nucleus was $1,400, not $2,500. I don't need DSP. This is a completely different price point than the $2,600 Innuous Zen server. Bring one over the Hudson to my apartment in FiDi and we can compare the SQ :).
Linear power supply is coming from Roon, or one can purchase various LPSs from ~$150-$500.
One can build/buy and Intel NUC for less (half?), but I wanted something very turnkey. |
So far i have seen quite a bit of discussion, some with an aim to resolve the original question/s and others maybe not. Never the less, i am getting something out of every post and greatly appreciate the bigger picture some of you are painting.. Keep-em coming (suggestions).. |
@audiotroy
Thanks, but no thanks.
I wanted to offer the OP my opinion between the two manufacturers he asked about. But, now that you have injected a third company, I feel it only fair to point him to a fourth- Sam Laufer's Memory Player. Though not in the same price range, he does offer the Mini Player at a very reasonable price, as well as software that can be implemented independently.
I only post this so the OP has as many choices to make a informed decision.
B |
kingbarbuda, Roon software can be added to any home computer on the network as well.
Nad M50.2 is your server and can be picked up as a Roon endpoint, also any Sonos device is the same way.
The idea of getting a high end server like a Roon Nucleus or an Innuous would be to replace your Node in the music room with a direct connection via USB to your dac providing your dac accepts Usb.
If you have a modern dac that can do DSD or high resolution PCM you can output any of these frequencies to your dac and we have found that high res PCM or DSD files generally sound far superior to the 16 bit 44k original sample.
We would recommend that you look at the Innuous products as they are true audiophile grade servers that can also house the Roon program.
You could selll both the Bluesound Node and the NAD M 50.2 and replace them both with the Innuous server and get far better sound quality out of your dac.
The difference with the NAD M50.2 is that is has a built in raid drive and analog output a Nucleus or Innuous would require an external back up drive.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Innuous and Aurender, and NAD dealers |
