Cables more hype than value?

Danoroo - how cheap do you want to go?

Are you able to make your own?

The spiral design IC's detailed under my System link (below) are excellent performers and depending on how far you want to go with them, they can start from around $70 for an all copper version up to $250 for a silver + copper neutral version.

I currently use the silver + copper neutral version and it's extremely good.

If you want more details let me know.

They same spiral design will also work with speaker cables, but I've only tried it with short cables - longer cables take a lot more effort to construct, but the short ones worked extremely well.

Regards.

Thanks for the info guys. I've never been an advocate of the "cables can improve the system" idea, but I'm open minded enough to give them a chance if I can do so on the cheap. Thank you all.

No biggie.

"Innomarata on 5/15 is from another reviewer, Greg Petan, not Douglas Schroeder. If there is another review by Schroeder on it I'd love to see a link to it."

I was looking at looking at something that Schroeder wrote on dagogo, and I thought that was a link to all of his reviews. I don't know how I missed that, but I was clearly in error. I should have been more careful.

My quote was from the very end of the articles on the ABX comparator. As I said, what he wrote in a thread here on A'gon went even further than the review and was what I referred to in my original post. I just used the link to the ABX Comparator so people would know what I was talking about.

His review of 12/14 would have no bearing being well before the ABX testing and the only review from Dagago on the Wells Audio Innomarata on 5/15 is from another reviewer, Greg Petan, not Douglas Schroeder. If there is another review by Schroeder on it I'd love to see a link to it.

Also, I don't see why he would use the Comparator in any other review since he did it for his own edification and simply became a better, more disciplined reviewer.

All the best,
Nonoise

"I believe that's more than one word."

I was referring to the review he did on the Wells Audio amp on dagogo May 2015. If he had such a profound experience with the ABX tester he just reviewed in April 2015, I would expect to see it take part in any amp reviews he did from that point on. To not do so makes no sense. The Momentum review is there too, 12/14.

Z, it's good to see you've toned it down quite a bit.

Like I've already mentioned, the comparison he made was between two different Wells Audio amps and he found it very difficult to tell the difference between the two using the ABX comparator. It was on a thread here on A'gon not too long ago. It could very well be that he hears a difference between two different makes.

I used this and this to cite his work after the ABX testing and can't locate any review of his on the D'Agostino Momentum amp as a formal review, let alone a comparison done with an ABX comparator. Were you citing from a show review?

As for having any impact on his ability to review going forward, he does address it in the article on the ABX comparator:

I believe the most seasoned listeners who concentrate to a potential orientation error could pass such ABX testing. Frank Van Alstine seems to concur that one can pass ABX Comparator testing with regularity, but it takes focussed concentration. In a noisier environment, or with distractions, even those caused by other listeners, I think the results could suffer significantly.

I believe that's more than one word.

What it will take is someone who can find the thread here on A'gon where he mentions the article and the quandary it left him in at the moment. It was in that thread where he mentioned how it was easier to hear differences between cables than amps. There's enough conventional wisdom on both sides of the debate to make it a moot point but let's let civility rule the day.

All the best,
Nonoise

"09-12-15: Nonoise
Z, you're quickly becoming the resident crank, if not already. Hyperbole is your vessel. You're as over the top with knee jerk reactions as anyone I've seen. It must be nice up there on Olympus throwing those (oh so hurtful, my, my) thunderbolts of wisdom."

I make no apologies for thinking and coming to conclusions that are different than yours, or anyone elses.

"How you came to the conclusion that my mind was already made up is beyond me. Quoting someone to add perspective doesn't translate to a closed mind. It's just another perspective added to the mix (keep your options open)."

I go by your words.

"I'm in no way going full Pete Aczel here but if you if you do match levels and don't clip the amp, the cables will make a bigger difference."

"Also, anyone can go to his website and see the many amps he's reviewed but the ABX comparator review came afterwards. I don't believe he's done an amp review since. There is a timeline here of sorts that would make it apparent to just about anyone who'd care to do a proper search."

You may want to take your own advice here and do another search. He did the ABX thing in April 2015. Heres an excerpt from an amp he reviewed in May 2015.

"Using the D’Agostino as an example of a component that makes an immediate impression in the best sense of the word, so does the Innamorata Signature, but in a very different way. So different in fact I had never really heard anything like it. No, the Wells Audio Innamorata Signature did not best the D’Agostino but it did reveal a bit of dryness in comparison. What the Innamorata has is a midrange and treble that is so creamy and liquid smooth without resulting in any darkness or muting. The overall effect is hard to describe. Textures are downright juicy, they are never harsh or overly bright. Horns in particular just pour out tone and texture. And vocals? Outstanding. Violin and Piano, two of the toughest instruments to get right are handled with such liquidity and proper tone, making for an incredibly seductive presentation.

The D’Agostino Momentum has a beguiling level of neutrality and resolution, particularly in the treble, resulting in every song unfolding into vast landscape to explore. There is simply more information passing through the D’Agostino. That said, the Wells Audio Innamorata Signature’s treble is so well integrated with the mid band making for a seamless presentation on par with the best, it leaves little on the table in the upper frequencies. Very sweet in tone, this is unapologetically beautiful sound. As for the comparison I have been making with the D’Agostino, I have not mentioned that it is nearly 5 times the price of the Innamorata Signature. As for choosing anything near the Innamorata’s price point I’m all over the Innamorata for center stage in my system."

I just don't see what kind of legitimate argument you can make after reading that. Like I said in my last post, this is the complete opposite of the claims made in the ABX test. Not only that, given that this review was published just a few weeks AFTER the ABX review, you would expect that experience to have at least some impact on his reviews going forward. Not 1 word is mentioned.

Z, you're quickly becoming the resident crank, if not already. Hyperbole is your vessel. You're as over the top with knee jerk reactions as anyone I've seen. It must be nice up there on Olympus throwing those (oh so hurtful, my, my) thunderbolts of wisdom.

How you came to the conclusion that my mind was already made up is beyond me. Quoting someone to add perspective doesn't translate to a closed mind. It's just another perspective added to the mix (keep your options open).

Also, anyone can go to his website and see the many amps he's reviewed but the ABX comparator review came afterwards. I don't believe he's done an amp review since. There is a timeline here of sorts that would make it apparent to just about anyone who'd care to do a proper search.

About the two different amps he refers to here on A'gon (the thread I couldn't find) he ABX'd two different amps that I believe were from Wells Audio (the Akasha and Innamorata) and was sincerely puzzled as in sighted reviews he could discern a difference but when ABX'd, it was very difficult.

As for Al's thoughtful and considerate approach (something you could learn from), I believe both possibilities do apply. Nothing is absolute and quite difficult to reproduce in any reliable manner.

But I'll go so far as to say that based on my experience, if everything remains constant in your system and you only have one variable, cables will make a bigger difference than amps provided you listen at the same levels, staying within the limits of the amp. Not a harsh or hard to fathom concept, Z.

Also, if anyone can find that thread with Mr. Schroeder's contribution you'll see where I offered that maybe the ABX device was the equalizer and played an unintended role, which may add weight to my thinking that despite the coloring of the music by the comparator, the cables were able to get in the way of the music more than the amps could. Nothing here to go nuclear over, nothing to see here folk, move along.

All the best,
Nonoise

I have a good deal of respect for Mr. Schroeder's reviews, and certainly for his sincerity. However, when a single isolated experiment yields results which fly in the face of both technical understanding and the overwhelming preponderance of reported experience-based belief, there are two possibilities:

1)The applicable technical understanding and reported experience-based belief are flawed, for reasons that are unexplained and probably unexplainable.

2)The experiment was flawed, for reasons that are unexplained and perhaps unexplainable.

Which is more likely?

Best regards,
-- Al

"09-12-15: Nonoise
I expected such a response.
We're all reviewers of some sort, no? What makes us, here, so special? I tried to find the thread here where he mentions it but couldn't."

It was one of the silliest I've ever heard. It makes no sense. Your minds already made up, so it would be a waste of time discussing the matter.

I'll make 1 quick point. I went over to his website and had a look at a few of his amp reviews. In his own reference system he has a $31,000 amp. And when he compares the differences in sound between them, they are anything but small or subtle.

Its the complete opposite of this.

"My memory wasn't as good as I thought so I went and dug up the article and after quite an exhaustive set up and conditioning, he could discern differences but they were slight. Repeatable but slight. There were enough clues to go on but how many here go to that length?"

Which is it? If the differences are so small, why buy a $31,000 amp? He's clearly not taking his own advice.

I expected such a response.
We're all reviewers of some sort, no? What makes us, here, so special? I tried to find the thread here where he mentions it but couldn't.

My memory wasn't as good as I thought so I went and dug up the article and after quite an exhaustive set up and conditioning, he could discern differences but they were slight. Repeatable but slight. There were enough clues to go on but how many here go to that length?

I'm in no way going full Pete Aczel here but if you if you do match levels and don't clip the amp, the cables will make a bigger difference.

It''s so easy to be an armchair warrior.

All the best,
Nonoise

"There is a thread here, somewhere, where Douglas Schroeder (a reviewer) tried out a high end Van Alstine ABX Comparator Switchbox and it was like a cold bucket of water in the face as it was impossible to tell the difference between amps with levels properly matched but the kicker was the biggest difference was between cables. It was very easy for him to hear the differences."

And people wonder why I don't trust audio reviews. So all our amps will sound the same if we match our levels? But our cables won't? No wonder people buy cables that cost more than their components.

Danoroo,
There is a thread here, somewhere, where Douglas Schroeder (a reviewer) tried out a high end Van Alstine ABX Comparator Switchbox and it was like a cold bucket of water in the face as it was impossible to tell the difference between amps with levels properly matched but the kicker was the biggest difference was between cables. It was very easy for him to hear the differences.

So use your ears and try out some within your budget and you'll find some that suits your needs.

All the best,
Nonoise

......Al that's what I was getting at ...and also ....as we all have said many times here on Audiogon ...cables react differently in each and every system and the most expensive is not always the the best for your system. I found that one out $$$$

09-11-15: Garebear
how can the Cardas sound better when they are about 40% less than what I paid for the Purist.....?

For some thoughts on why a high degree of correlation between cable price and cable performance should not be expected, see the posts by me and others in this thread.

Also, see the two links I provided in my post above dated 9-8-15, which are here and here.

Also, see the current thread " Looking for really fine cables at really low price", in which several highly experienced audiophiles have reported that they prefer the sound of cables made from Belden 8402 and vintage Western Electric wire, those cables costing not a great deal more than Radio Shack cables, to cables costing multi-thousands of dollars.

Regards,
-- Al

......I am in the cable quandary here .....I currently have Purist Audio Design 20th Anniversary cables throughout my system along with the PAD Limited Edition Power Cords. My thinking is / was the more expensive the cable the better the sound which is true in many regards but when I was looking to upgrade my speakers cables I ended up buying the Cardas Clear Beyond as going up the Purist just got ridiculously expensive. Nice cables and during this time I was moving up the Esoteric line in equipment. The Cardas Clear sound real good ..to me in this system and the my speakers also changed from Avalon's to the Sonus Faber Olympica III's ......but in my mind how can the Cardas sound better when they are about 40% less than what I paid for the Purist.....? So I an looking at changing one interconnect out one at a time and see what happens ....but the Cardas interact better than the PAD in my system for less money .....don't know

Danoroo - some very wise advice from the posters above.

Cables are fickle and perhaps the most difficult to attain success with.

I have tried lots of cables with differing architectures and also had some amazing opportunities to get to my current cable base.

The best approach is to try to find stores that have loaners you can borrow and tryout for a week or so.

Or you can buy and return them - but there is the cost of returning to consider.

Some cables take 2-3 days to "settle" so trying to discern improvements can take at least that long.

The more affordable cables I like the look of are from Anticables, Stager Sound Systems and JW Audio. The cables I use are from KLE Innovations - but they get pricey.

For me - the right cables add great value - but the search can be frustrating.

Regards...

Danoroo,

I may be able to give you some insight with regards to cables. After reading your post, it looks like you are approaching the cable issue from a purely subjective standpoint. Like you say, there's no consensus, so if you want answers you'll need to take matters into your own hands. I think I can speak for the majority of people on this site when I say this how we had to do it. And we get different results due to the variety of factors involved.

The only advice I can give you is don't spend too much money until you know what you're doing. And even then, be careful.

Mr D- Every cable/wire in your system is important. Between every component; your signal is transferred and there are a plethora of nuances that can be lost and have a profound effect on your presentation. Imagine viewing a very high-def 3D movie, through a number of glass panes. If one of those panes was dirty or otherwise distorted the image: would it matter which one? I fully agree with Almarg about ditching the optical cable. One caveat there: don't buy a digital cable shorter than 1.5M(digital reflections being the demon to avoid there). My last was a Kimber Orchid, which if I were to ever need one again, I'd try to find. An inexpensive starting point would be the more basic Kimber, Analysis Plus or Synergistic Research lines of interconnects & speaker cables, just to see if your system will resolve the differences. The Cable Company can provide good advice(based on your components) and sets, at a nominal rental fee, for your testing/tasting. Found here: (http://www.usedcable.com//default.aspx)

P.S: Apologies for the misspelling of your screen name.

Regards,
-- Al

Danaroo, as with the original question posed in the thread I doubt that a consensus can be reached concerning your question. One reason for that, IMO, being that the answer will be dependent on the designs of the specific components that are involved, and in ways that don't have much if any predictability. The answer is also likely to often be dependent on the lengths of the various cables in the system.

See my post here for discussion of some of those dependencies.

My post here, earlier in this thread, may also be of interest.

Without knowing anything about your system beyond what is stated in your post above, though, my guess is that what may make the biggest difference would likely be changing the optical cable you mentioned to a coaxial S/PDIF or AES/EBU cable (depending on what your DAC can accept). With the odds being in favor of that difference being for the better, although not necessarily.

Regards,
-- Al

OK. I read all 13 pages of this thread and there's no consensus as to whether or not cables are more hype than value. So, let me approach this subject from a slightly different perspective. If my current connections are all "stock" wire that came with my components, except for my speaker wire which is minimum length(about 8 feet) 12 gauge copper speaker wire from radio shack terminated with monoprice banana plugs that I installed myself, which connection do you pro-aftermarket cable proponents think is most critical to improved sound quality? Is it the optical cable which gets the digital signal from my music server to my DAC? Or is it the speaker wire? Or is it the wire that provides the power from the wall socket to my amplifier? I have spent many hours improving room acoustics and experimenting with speaker and sub placement and am inclined to believe that these simple steps will do more for (or to) sound quality than any change in wires. Which wire is most important?

Zd - thanks for that feedback. I think it just goes to show that one amp in different environments can sound very different.

However - I am the first to admit that the NAIM can be very finicky - they seem to work well with their own components/speakers, but when mated with components from other brands they can get more than a little "quirky".

Early on I spent some time "adapting" my components to the NAIM. It's design requires that all sources be properly grounded at their mains lead - so my Cambridge Audio phono stage with its Wal-wart power supply and the Pioneer Elite DVD player with two pin plug presented some challenges to get the best sound out of them - grounding each chassis to a central point seemed to fix many of the problems.

My more recent components, all having a grounded power supplies, seem to be a much better match.

Add to that the many different cables I have tried, i.e. IC's SC's and PC's are crucial to get it to its current level of performance.

So I am not at all surprised at what you experienced.

But once you get it all figured out they can sound very sweet indeed.

One other thing I know is an issue with NAIM is high capacitance speaker cables - they can cause the amp to throw a "wobbler".

Having said that - I found these details on the NAIM web site

NACA5 specifications are as follows:

Capacitance: 16pF per metre
Resistance: 9 milliohms per metre
Inductance: 1uH per metre

Minimum length: 3.5 metres per channel
Maximum length: 20 metres per channel
25 meters can be tolerated

lets take a range of cable length 3.5-20 meters

NAIM amps amp can easily accommodate values in the range of...

Capacitance: 56pF to 320pf per cable
Resistance: 31.5 milliohms to 180 milliohms per cable
Inductance: 3.5uH to 20 uH per cable

In my current listening space my cables are in the 3.5 metre range

- so this affords me fair degree of latitude in that...

- I can actually use cables up to "91pF per metre" without and issue

But the 16pf/meter, which is a bit of a "red herring", seems to be what most people latch on to.

But I did find that Kimber Speaker cables did not perform very well - compared to Van den Hul

Moving on....

From the link I posted it seems that different people have widely varying success with passive and active line stages

I think your observation about good active line stages being expensive, may also apply to good passive line stages also, since sound quality seems to depend on how it is implemented e.g. transformers vs stepped volume controls etc...

It also seems that a good passive line stage can be as expensive as a good active line stage.

One thing for sure - I'm a little wiser now :-)

Many thanks for taking the time to post - it was very enlightening

I bought the 5i because I was looking to put together a small system for a house I rented in CO for a year. I was curious to see how good an integrated in this price range would sound, given some of the positive comments I was hearing. If you don't have a lot of experience with passives, the main reason people use them is because its very difficult to get a good sounding active line stage for a low price. Many people feel that is you can't get a good active preamp, use a passive or a source with a volume control instead. Needless to say, I'm one of those people. I should also mention that I'm very sensitive to high frequencies, so some of the things that bothered me about the 5i, may not bother you.

The best way that I can describe the overall sound of the Naim is that its not clean sounding. (There was nothing wrong with it. I was able put it next to another one in a store and the sound was identical.) When I first tried it with a pair of B&W LM-1's I had on my PC, the Naim sounded fine. But the B&W was a fairly dull sounding speaker with not too much detail. I needed a real pair of speakers, so I went out and bought a pair of Vandersteen 1's. When I put the Naim on those, it just fell apart. It's true that the Vandersteen is much more detailed and resolving, but its easy to drive and I don't think it was unfair to the Naim to pair it with that speaker. Naim said either the 1's or 2's would be OK.

What let me to believe that the Naim had a passive line stage, was the high frequencies. They weren't refined at all, as well as an overall harshness. It just sounded like a typical, cheap active line stage. I also had 2 other amps I bought to try; a Creek 5350SE and a Musical Fidelity A3.5. The MF was a bit cleaner sounding overall, and had a lot more power, but the highs sounded, more or less, like the Naim. The line stage in the MF I know is definitely active. The real test was when I put it next to the Creek. The 5350 does have a passive LS. When I put that in the system, there was an immediate difference. The highs were completely relaxed, but had more detail. There was no question that I was listening to a much better quality active preamp, or a passive. The difference was not at all subtle.

I should also point out, prior to my time with the Naim, I had quite a bit of experience using passives, so the Naim wasn't really a learning experience for me. I kind of know what to expect when I hear both designs. Not only that, don't read too much into what I'm saying here. You have the Naim and are getting excellent results. That's all that matters. It wasn't the right amp for me, but it definitely is the right amp for you. Don't let me, or anyone else, talk you out of enjoying your system.

Zd - to quote you...

"Surprising, because it didn't sound like one"

what about the 5i made you feel it was active?

I bought the 5i because of it's sound, and at that time I didn't even know it had a passive front end.

I seem to like the sound of the limited Passive gear I've heard - a friend has a passive stand alone front end and I find both his system and my 5i sounds very detailed, open, dynamic and natural.

I've never really thought about active vs passive (or the differences), so it would be enlightening to get your feedback regarding the sound of Active vs Passive.

It will provide me with some indication of what to listen for in future.

There is this thread over on amps and Preamps...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1186277547

But your thoughts would be very welcome especially since you owned the 5i.

Many Thanks.

I definitely had a 5i. I guess it had a passive line stage and I never knew. Surprising, because it didn't sound like one.

Zd - The 5 had Active, but the 5i(italics) had a Passive

From the NAIM forum...

NAIT 5 (active) preamp:
• electronic switching
• buffered resistor ladder volume control
• through-hole construction
• fully isolated from power amp ("split")
• six DIN-5 inputs (including powered phono input and three tape in/outs)

NAIT 5i(-2) (passive) preamp:
• relay switching
• passive potentiometer
• surface-mount construction
• +10dB makeup gain in power amp stage
• four RCA phono inputs (two with DIN-5 inputs, one RCA tape out) with 1/8" priority mini-jack on NAIT5i-2

Regards...

"It's NAIM's entry level - but the reason I liked it soooo much was it's amazing clarity, natural tones and punch - and the reason for that is it's passive front end."

Are you sure about that? I had the same amp and it certainly didn't sound like it had a passive line stage. To me, it sounded active.

ZD542 and Mitch - I can only speak to what has transpired in my system, here goes...

A few years back I purchased a NAIM 5i integrated amp - mainly because it was the one amp that impressed me under around $6k and since my budget was much less it was a good fit

It's NAIM's entry level - but the reason I liked it soooo much was it's amazing clarity, natural tones and punch - and the reason for that is it's passive front end.

Moving on - Shortly thereafter I was asked to review some cables - I've gone on about the KLE Innovations stuff on this forum countless times, so I'll cut to the chase.

The Interconnects and Speaker cables have enhanced the performance of this little 50 watt amp so much that it now performs way above it's modest price point of $1700

I have compared my system against others costing between $30-50k and it's right there with them - and even bettering some of them :-)

So - are cables worth it - since my system costs around $14k - $3k of that spent on cables - in my mind - damn right their worth it, i.e. if you can get the right cables - the trouble is which one is the right cable?

The KLE Innovations cables have surprised me time and again by how much better each next model in the product lineup is.

Even their entry level cables has outperformed many of the "established" brands for significantly less cost.

Moving on...

Fortunately, I have been able to fabricate many of my own cables, but the one thing that came out of that exercise was my realization that cable geometry (or architecture) and connector quality is paramount for the best performing cables.

Exotic materials will suffer the same effects as copper if the architecture is the same old twisted pair - resulting in performance that is less than stellar.

Having said all that ZD is correct - if you don't see the value in them then don't chase expensive cables.

I would also add - if you don't have the inclination to learn about "cable science" - don't chase expensive cables either - many of them are not worth their price.

But if you are inquisitive, investigate companies like Anti-cables, Nordost, Shunyata, KLE Innovations and others - especially those that have more interesting cable geometries and theories.

Unfortunately - it is really difficult to acquire knowledge in this area - cable science is relatively new and most companies guard their secrets very well. And to protect copyright they often cite "strange theories" that sound absurd and can be construed as "marketing hype".

Sometimes you just have to read between the lines.

Personally - I have found the spiral geometry - where the neutral conductor is wound around the signal conductor - like Anti Cables Interconnects - to offer extremely good performance for cables of all types - even for power cables!

The other thing is - to get the full benefit from cables - ALL other cables in your system have to be of similar quality.

So - I'm on the "quality cables" bandwagon - but I research the heck out of any new cable and try before I buy.

But I can see why so many others claim otherwise

They just haven't tried the right cables - yet :-)

We all need to make our own choices. If, for example, you don't see the value in buying an expensive pair of cables, then don't. It would be foolish to do otherwise. If someone else wants to spend more, that's OK too. And when people make expensive mistakes, I'm more than happy to buy like new cables at a huge discount.

I agree that some brands display very high construction quality but my question remains, "is the price justified relative to the level of sonic improvement provided by using uber-expensive cables?"

I do hear sonic differences between cables, and I prefer the sound of some cables over others, but IME the "level of improvement" resulting from changes in cabling comes nowhere near the level of improvement possible by changing source components, amplification or speakers.

When you factor in the high cost of many cables for what is really just wire with increasingly fancier ancillaries such as stainless steel collars, carbon fiber coverings, electic bias systems, network boxes, etc., one could argue the cable industry is a magic bean that has grown beyond all proportion based on the need that audiophiles have to keep up with the pack on the road to audio nirvana.

Its interesting that you bring up Naim. Personally, I like the concept of Naim, but I don't think the performance is equal to the cost. The Naim components I've owned, over the years, wasn't in the same league as comparable products from other brands. And I understand that may not be the case for all of their products, but that was my experience. Getting back to the cable discussion, I was thinking about trying a Naim CD player, so I went out to a dealer to demo one. I brought a CD player along with some cables that I normally use with it. To make a long story short, the AQ cables I brought with me made the Naim cables sound defective. They were just in a different league. Not to mention Naim cables are balanced and mine were SE.

I wonder how they would like this story over on the Naim forum? lol.

"08-21-15: Williewonka
Macdad - the investment in developing cable architectures, choosing a wire and plugs, spec-ing you own cable designs is significant and a whole different science compared to circuits and quality parts."

That's another good point. People always use the argument that cables are just wires and they're not as hard to make as a component. In many cases I would agree with that, but like anything else, there are some products that genuinely stand out. Here's a couple of examples I use that usually win people over. Cardas is one. If you search on the internet, you can find pics of Cardas cables that are stripped down so you can see how they are put together. To view it in sales literature is one thing, but when you see the actual cable, its just amazing. Nordost is another. Aside from the connectors, they have to make everything in house using special designs and machines. If you look closely at some of their work, the attention to detail is flawless. The way they apply the dielectric to the conductors looks like something NASA would make. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if they needed Al to help them.

Anyway, I could give more examples, but with some cables, I feel the price is justified given what it takes to make them. And of course, you still need to know what you are doing when you buy them or you can waste a lot of money.

Mitch2 - I used NAIM as an example because their customers seem to be extremely loyal and believe NAIM can do no wrong.

I was on their Forum for a while and it seemed that anyone that even dared to mention another brand would be labelled a heretic - People actually seemed scared to admit they used another companies cables.

With this hobby/obsession getting more complex - if more companies offered their own cables I think you could see more of the NAIM customer mentality.

But thankfully not on this forum :-)

Just thinking out loud.

Do you think other companies are going to sit back and let them rule the roost?

I think that horse has already fled the barn and is into the next county. Sure, some companies offer their own cables (another is Ayre who offers cables constructed by Cardas) but folks are so into buying what they want that whether a manufacturer offers cables or not is virtually a moot point.
Sure some manufacturers will offer their own cables as a convenience to customers, but more likely as another way to make money because, the cable industry has been a money-maker for many...for the very reason stated in the question that started this thread.

Macdad - the investment in developing cable architectures, choosing a wire and plugs, spec-ing you own cable designs is significant and a whole different science compared to circuits and quality parts.

I asked a manufacturer the same question and his answer...
- why should I bother
- the customer will do what they want anyway
- it's a waste of my energies.

And he is right.

At this point in time though, component manufacturers will give you as cheep a cable as they can get away with. It's called designing to a price point.

Most components can perform way above what their provided cables will allow them to - I've personally demonstrated it time and again to others.

And that's why there is a whole cable industry out there!

As for seeing component companies develop cables - it has already started - NAIM has carried their own line for years and their new amps have caused them to bring out a whole new line of cables.

Do you think other companies are going to sit back and let them rule the roost?

I doubt it

Only time will tell :-)

Regards...

Mapman, well said.

But some still believe Cables are Magic!!

If they were I think you would see real audio companies such as ARC, Cary, VTL, Sanders, Soundsmith, Magnepan, Wilson, Vandersteen, etc really stress cables.

They don't, and just tell you to use a quality cable.

Check out what these guys use at Audio Shows if you want to know what really makes a difference.

"Value." Isn't that usually in the ear of the listener? Hype? Sure, reams and reams of hype, not only regarding cables, but for a lot of high-end audio, period.

A friend of mine uses all Shunyata cables in his reference system. These wires alone cost more than a new economy car. He maintains the cables give him the "final 5 percent." I don't know if that means resolution, sound stage, etc, or musical enjoyment or if, in his mind, they are one in the same.

All you folks who figure bigbux wires are "worth it" and "must-haves", go for it. Bless you.

Even if I were wealthy, I can't imagine spending umpteen thousands of dollars on wires, no matter how highly touted they are. Earlier this year I auditioned Magnepan 1.7 speakers at a local dealer. The speaker cables he was using retailed around $50,000 for a 12' pair. The entire staff of the store was said to have been able to hear the "difference" between those cables and much more modestly priced cables that sold for about $2500/ pair, even when they weren't in the listening room. For me, $2500 cables are still pretty darn expensive.

Past a certain point, I think most audiophile are certifiably crazy, including perhaps even myself, although my system is relatively modest and based on vintage tube electronics which I've had for decades.

I've found very good cable options for modest price.

If these did not fit the bill, I would consider spending more, but I am not inclined to do that. I get hours and hours of listening pleasure every week out of a very modest investment in wires.

So my advice is stick to the most common well reviewed (by user) options for modest cost to start. Consider changing and maybe paying somewhat more only if good reason. You should find something that works well for modest cost.

last thing I would recommend is to spend a fortune out of teh gate on any wires thinking that will solve all your problems. It almost certainly will not and you may find you have change yet again later once the real issues at hand have been addressed.

So basically, walk before you run, don't jump into teh deep end without testing the waters first, etc., all those good old cliche good practices that tend to almost always work best, including for getting the good sound you want.

Lastly, be very cautious of anyone who tells you wires are the main key to good sound. They will likely contribute as a tweak to get you to a better place perhaps but alone can do little.

"08-12-15: Williewonka
ZD542 - I think it makes more sense to some people that a more expensive component provides better performance rather than cables - after all, they employ things like quality circuit boards, quality electrical components, quality power supplies - these are bound to sound better - since they do cost more!"

I was responding to Tpcarter's post only and not comparing how much of a difference cables make vs active components. I wrote this last week.

" I've read some reviews online and it seems very difficult to purchase cables without auditioning, but this is my situation. I really want to bring out the best of the Olympica III's, the soundstage, midrange warmth, instrument/vocal placement, and overall seductiveness of the speakers."

The only thing I can tell you for sure is that its not going to happen. What you're talking about are major component differences and qualities. Amp, preamp, speakers etc. Cables may effect those areas, but nowhere near the level that components do. When you read reviews, the descriptions they use make it sound like a pair of cables will have the same impact on your sound as a pair of speakers. The differences with cables are usually much less.

The second, and more important thing that reviews lack are difficulty levels. If you're new to audio, its not easy to pick through a bunch of cables looking for differences. The differences are there, but there's no guarantee that you're going to find them. It takes a lot of listening and experience to do this. The last thing you want to do is rush in and spend a lot of money.

So my recommendation would be to keep your 3k in your pocket, and spend about $100-200 on speaker cables. At least for now.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)

Old news somewhat but I did notice an improvement with the Pangea power cord on both my DACs and on my ARC sp-16 pre-amp as well but to a lesser extent.

I employed isolation as best possible prior. Adding shielding in my case was worthwhile as it turns out. And the Pangea's did not break the bank in the process. So I can easily recommend them to potentially add teh advertised benefits. Not to say they or any other product always will in each individual case, but they seem to do what is advertised at least in my cases which is all one can ask for.

ZD542 - I think it makes more sense to some people that a more expensive component provides better performance rather than cables - after all, they employ things like quality circuit boards, quality electrical components, quality power supplies - these are bound to sound better - since they do cost more!

But cables ?

It's only a piece of wire! AND they're passive!

How could they possibly improve sound quality simply by having...
- better quality conductors & connectors
- more effective cable architectures
- noise cancelling conductor geometries
- etc...

Unfortunately, I've also met people in the business that don't believe in, what I consider some pretty basic cable science, like the a technician that repaired high end gear for a very hi-end hi-fi store...
- he didn't believe high capacitance speakers cables could be responsible for driving a SS amp into oscillation
- he believed the reason for the amp blowing was that the cables had shorted somehow.
- now he is a little more educated.

But as you pointed out - for the most part trying to convey the benefits of quality cables is very much PITW :-)

The optimist in me likes to think the tide might be turning
- just - v e r y.....s l o w l y

Regards... ;-)

Tpcarter,

You're right, but you're pissing in the wind. I've tried to make the same argument at least a thousand times. The only thing I can tell you for certain, is that for people who argue the opposite position, this has nothing to do with cables. You won't get anywhere with them.

Tpcarter - cables can make a difference to systems of all price points.

Personally, I've had great success upgrading power and speaker cables on my Yamaha mini system ($340) and my neighbours boom box ($250) benefited in clarity and bass control with just a simple power cable upgrade.

What cables you select and how they work with your system - i.e. synergy can be significant as to whether you hear a difference - or not.

Personally, I think the order in which you upgrade can play a role - I start by upgrading power cables, then speaker cables and finally IC's - that way I can hear the subtleties IC's bring to the party :-)

As for why others do not hear improvements - this hobby/obsession can be fickle and complexities like room acoustics, speaker placement, musical tastes and other anomolies can play a significant role masking the subtleties cables can bring to the performance.

And these are just a few things I've experienced in my "cable journey" over the years.

Unfortunately there is no sure fire formula - wish there was :-)

Regards

I have a very “clear” system that reveals subtle nuances, whatever they might be. The system itself cost around $25,000, and it took me about three years to piece it together. Which means I auditioned a lot of components, getting the chance to hear them together in my house. And yes, one amplifier did indeed sound different than another. Same with speakers. And SAME WITH CABLES.

So, do cables make a difference to me (and my non-audiophile friends) in my system? Absolutely. Clearly. Indisputably. Since I have listened mostly to different interconnects after deciding on my speaker wires long ago, I’ll address those primarily.

One interconnect reveals a very different sound than another. Some highlight the midrange, some the bass. Some are well-balanced; some are not. Some sound “round” and “warm,” and others sound “flat” and “cold.” Some reveal a very airy and “floaty” sonic image that hovers in a huge soundstage; others reveal dense images that seem much less delineated. Some sound “real,” with lifelike timbres, and others sound electronic, metallic, or otherwise artificial. Even digital cables which some skeptics state shouldn’t make any difference at all … can make a HUGE difference.

My latest purchase was a digital cable that revealed a very well-rounded sonic spectra; when I compared it to several others of equal price, even, the difference was so clear that even my wife (an admitted non-audiophile) heard it. No mistaking the difference.

So, it baffles me that some skeptics can’t seem to hear the difference (or they’ve decided there couldn’t be one so they don’t even try?). I’m not sure what’s going on there, since the difference is so incredibly obvious to me and thousands of other intelligent audiophiles. (While I can only guess at this, I imagine I’m not the only skeptical and intellectually-capable audiophile out there. I’m not easily duped, let me assure you; my critical thinking skills are quite well-developed!)

It is potentially telling, though, that many skeptics mention Monster cables as if they were supposedly excellent. Now THAT’S a marketing scam right there! Monster cables are just one tiny step above $1.99 cent RCA interconnects available at Radio Shack! Most people who have taken the time to truly listen to hundreds of cables (aka “audiophiles”) know this about Monster, just as they know the same about Bose! That said, I do use a Monster power strip, having found (after much auditioning) that it has a great synchrony with my system, ultimately resulting in the sound that I like best.

Anyway, to any potential purchasers of audiophile equipment who think that “if a skeptic says it, it must be true,” I suggest you listen for yourself. If you have a very low to mid-range system that doesn’t reveal much of the characteristics of its components, it might very well not make an audible difference what cables/interconnects you use. (That said, depending on your ears and musical sensitivities, it might!)

But … if you are going for an ultimate system that you’d like to tweak for optimum effect, please trust me (and thousands like me) enough to listen for yourself. While cost is not the significant element (some cables costing less will sound much better than those that cost more), different cables DO SOUND DIFFERENT.

Thanks for reading. And please, don’t just believe the naysayers because skepticism is often equated with a more discerning intellect. I’m a skeptic, insisting on more critical research and independent assessment than most sane people could stand before I’ll believe anything (:-), and I have “heard the light”!

I don't know if this helps or helps but here is a lecture headed by stereophiles john Atkinson. After the 16 min of intro he turns it over to Keith Johnson. This is the guy you want to listen to. And even though it's mostly about digital jitter and such towards the end He gives a little insight on cables.

http://youtu.be/QsVqCID029g

Ebm is an expert at the hit-and-run post.

Love hype !!

Mapman. Your digital hash goes straight through your power cord. Don't be too hopeful about the effect of sheilding. Try some isolation.

I am about to try my first explicit power wire update experiment ever.

The insulation on power cord to my DAC is a bit frayed near the connector, so I am using that as an excuse to replace it and see if I can do better.

So I have ordered a $200+ Pangea cord that is on sale for $70 currently.

My justification for picking that particular cord is I want top try something that is designed to work well with digital that should produce some improvement/change of significance over my current stock cord which is heavy duty and well suited for an amp perhaps but nothing special for digital.

FOr digital, shielding against both emmission of noise through the wire by the digital DAC and reception of noise from other nearby wires/devices (which I know can be a problem with my setup based on history) is the main technical benefit I can see on paper with this particular power cord.

I'll report back when I get it and have a chance to assess.