Clearaudio Innovation Wood or shoot for the stars Techdas AF 3
I would go with the ClearAudio Innovation wood with Universal arm and upgrade your phono preamp. I own a ClearAudio Innovation wood with Universal arm and Benz Zebra wood cartridge. My phono preamp is an Audio Research Ref Phono 2se. This is a truly excellent sounding combination. Turntables are difficult to demo. There are just so many variables. |
So in effect you have $34k to spend? $27k for the table and $7k for the arm. In my opinion it really matters if this is it or if you think you will have room for more upgrades in the future if this is really the end then as @lostbears suggests you would be best off to set some money aside for the phono stage and a better cartridge as the ones you now use will be a limiting factor. You can consider the used market for the phono stage, plenty of Ref 2SE available and I’d consider adding a step up as the high gain in the ARC phono is its weak point, I just added a Music First step up ($3k) to mine and it is a game changer However if you want room to upgrade further the AF3 is the ideal choice as you can add a second or third arm, and the compact size allows all sorts of clever bases to be used (like the Herzan). But this is basically setting you en route to a $75k LP system one other angle to consider is how you apportion the mix in your LP system. I personally would not spend over 50% of my budget on the table, instead think more like a third for the table, a third for the arm/cart/interconnect, and the last third for the phono stage. Hope this helps |
This is tough. To choose maybe the last turntable. There is a sad finality to it. I do hope this is not really the case, only no turntable upgrade for a long time. Could you list the rest of your system including cables and power management devices, so that we could see the whole set-up? Generally speaking, my thinking is close to folkfreak's - about 50% spent on the table. But that's general. You absolutely want to compare the tables in similar systems if you cannot do home audition with both. The dealers must understand. You might only need an hour or so, they could stay with you while you are at it. And you could offer to pay them for this. I would. |
Inna, The rest of my system Pre -ARC Ref 6 Power -ARC Ref 75 Speakers - Von Schweikert VR 44 Active Phonostage - Simaudio 610 lp CD/SACD/DAC - Esoteric k07 Streaming - Macbook Air with Audioquest Diamond USB Speaker cable - MIT Matrix 28 IC's - MIT Oracle 3.1 ( front end ) Tonearm Cable - Synergistic Tricon IC to power - Masterbuilt Performance ( 6m) PC's - Shunyata Alpha Series ( various models ) Power Condtioner - Audioquest Niagara 1000 ( front end ), Shunyata PS 8 ( power amp, active woofers ) Furutech Gxtd- R wall receptacles TAOC racks Aside from no turntable for a long time ( hopefully versus forever ), no other upgrades for a while since I will be a poor man after this ( if I go the AF 3 route ). folkfreak, My initial budget is closer to 15k, 11k for the table and 4k for tonearm ( 9" Kuzma is around that pricepoint, IIRC ). So going from that amount to 32K is a very big price increase. Lostbears, I agree it is very difficult to demo tables and yes the the Ref 3 phono has 2 inputs. In fact, my ARC dealer has been bugging me to upgrade to it for a good price. But I feel the upgrade is useless unless/until I upgrade my TT 1st. |
Attymbb, You have a good system. I cannot be of much help since I haven't heard either of those tables. I suggest you contact member albertporter directly and ask for his advice, he might've auditioned both. Your wife didn't seem to actively object to possible future phono stage and cartridge upgrades, and cartridges wear out anyway. If the TechDas is truly far superior than the Clearaudio, I would probably take a risk and go after it. But I would not do it without auditioning it, that's for sure. |
attymbb, I have been pondering my Last TT for a year +. TechDas III and Graham arm were high on my list. Heard it at Axpona 2016. Even though you confined this discussion to (2) TT ; I hope you don't mind if I expand. First; Nice System. Mine is posted with a few updates that will come soon. I am a vinyl guy; 3000 LPs, 83 CDs. Almost ready to pull the trigger on a Technics 1200G, modded with a Tri-Planar 12" arm with tonearm cable terminated with XLR connections. Still pondering cartridges. IMHO, this TT can be a game changer. Just some thoughts....... - Technics DD is rock solid speed. Perhaps equal or better than all others. - Tri-Planar ranks with with any of the top arms. Cartridge - Stll pondering. Your choice. - Upgrade phonostage Tubes Rule here. - I will stay with a gimbal arm. You will save $$$ and have a Top TT rig. Again, IMHO. Best Wishes on your Journey |
Another table you should consider is the AMG Viella 12 Turntable and Tonearm. Check out the reviews. I am a huge Clearaudio fan and own the Clearaudio Perfomance DC with the AMG Teatro cartridge but if I could afford anything else, at any price, I would go for the AMG. Check out the following review where he compares the Clearaudio TT to the AMG: https://www.dagogo.com/amg-viella-v12-turntable-review/ Of course, this is my personal opinion and YMMV. Good Luck! |
inna, my wife may not object to a phono stage or a cartridge upgrade ( though definitely not this year) but after this my bank account will be the one objecting. downunder, i can barely afford the kuzma that's why I am going for the 9"tonearm only, cheaper but good enough. a good tracker with a captive cable and rca junction box to boot. This saves me easily a grand on a din tonearm cable if i go for a different tonearm manufacturer. i doubt i cant stretch my budget to accommodate a Thales arm. I maxed out as it is. analogluvr, I do agree that the Benz is a bit fat but it's a very musical cart. It doesn't standout on any genre but can play them all decently. Also, my phonostage is a Simaudio Moon 610lp and not the ARC Reference 3. I am thinking of upgrading to that for better synergy since my pre-power are both ARC and it has 2 inputs. nkonor, i wish i had your patience, to plan 1 year + for your endgame TT is beyond my powers of self control. I got to get moving on something soon. I can barely sleep at night thinking about it. i used to be a cd guy, I have over 2000 of those but have been listening to about a handful for the last 3 years since I got into vinyl which surprised me as I now have about a couple of hundred LP's already as well. An ultrasonic cleaner is also on my list but way down the batting order, I can live with my VPI HW 16.5 in the meantime. lostbears, if i go the af3 route I wont have any money left for a phonostage, nor a cartridge. That is the sad fact. But the possibility of owning one of these exotic but highly technical,very musical turntables is terribly exciting. It's the cost that's giving me nightmares and cold feet. joey54, my network of dealers doesn't carry AMG. Actually, a Kronos Sparta was part originally part of the equation with a Helena arm. The cost of which is almost similar to the Af3 but I didn't get the feeling that it would be a last TT for life kind of thing for me ( unless it's the pro which I could never afford) . So, I decided on a lesser priced but very good table( Innovation) but with wiggle room for some possible other upgrades. I should be able to get the hear the Af3 sometime this week. |
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attymbb, Unless the turntable itself represents a particularly high value to you, it is very likely that you will want to upgrade your entire set-up, probably more so if you get the better of those two tables. If this happens, you will throw yourself into the fire of the conflict. But I understand the drive - I want Studer reel to reel deck ! Yes, I could get it now and then probably no upgrades whatsoever for at least five years. I decided to wait but some days I don't feel well because of it. |
I would go with a balanced approach. Otherwise you will be limited by your weak links. You could also try to find a used or demo Techdas to save money. I bought my ClearAudio Innovation Wood used from my ClearAudio dealer and I have been very happy with it. It never hurts to ask if the demo is for sale. You could also ask to bring the Ref Phono 3 home for the weekend. I bring demo pieces home for the weekend all the time. Until you actually hear a piece in your system, It's hard to know for sure how it will sound or the impact it will have. My ClearAudio dealer also carries AMG. The AMG Viella 12 is an excellent sounding table. Very musical. Definitely worth considering. |
nkonor, I get what you guys are saying. I am postponing the af 3 audition to think this thing through. "Earth is calling you" is a not so subtle suggestion for a wake up call. I guess I was too eager for change/something new and exciting. To pass the time, I will home demo the ARC Ref Phono 3 and then remap my plan of attack to attain this seemingly unattainable state of sonic bliss in this crazy hobby of ours. |
It is possible that what you really want is the TechDas reference turntable that you heard at your friend's. But it is unreachable, ever. Almost all of us, if we start comparing what we can have and what is available.. However, last table situation creates different state of mind. Whether you follow the wish or postpone is very personal. There might be no right or wrong, both might be right in different ways. |
I don't understand your wife's logic. But then again, I don't understand my own wife, either. Buy what you like and then buy her some flowers or some nice jewelry. All will be forgiven. I can see how a wife might legitimately object to the purchase of gear that is big and/or ugly for placement in your mutual living space, but this case baffles me. I guess I am blessed; my wife turns a blind eye to my audio craziness. The result is three turntables up and running in our living room and two more in the basement. Audiophile logic says that if you splurge on the AF3 and either the Kuzma or Graham tonearm, your front end will have in theory exceeded in its capabilities the downstream components. You'll be itching for more upgrades. |
Inna, As I understand the OP, his wife has blessed the purchase of the AF3. The OP himself is struggling between a "reasonable" choice of a very expensive turntable or a less reasonable choice of a very, very expensive turntable (the AF3), precisely because his wife has consented to either. I've been struggling to keep my opinion to myself, but IF I were to express my opinion, I would suggest wait for the upcoming Technics SP10R. It may blow away both of these alternative choices and may cost less than either. But of course, I did not say that. Of course, the 10R will not LOOK as sexy as the AF. Nothing could. |
lostbears, Yup, will update on the demo of the Ref Phono 3. I'll take a more strategic approach to this upgrade as you guys have suggested. I even got a schedule for another demo this time for a Kronos Sparta. Though I previously scratched this off my list, I'm willing to give it a good listen for whatever is worth. inna, Come to think of it , you may be right about the my friends Techdas Af1. I will also never be able to afford it. My system sounds good but not great or at least something is amiss in my opinion. At the time I heard the AF1 we had the same speakers but totally different front end. His system totally blew me away and he kept telling me before I bought mine that this is the potential of your speakers and I guess it's still in the back of my mind. You are also correct that the wife wants to protect me from myself and the family finances as well. My wife knows me too well. She hates the fact of consistent outlay of money. Buying and then selling at a loss to upgrade, this drives her crazy. It truly is wasted $$$. She'd rather that I go totally all in and be done with it. Her famous saying is "buy cheap, buy twice" for which I believe there is some truth to. lewm, you are correct, I do have my wife's blessing, and yes I'm struggling to decide between those 2 very and very expensive tables. Probably more from a moral rather than financial standpoint. The financial aspect only affects my ability to upgrade other stuff which is sadly the fun part of this hobby. I think the others are more concerned at the approach I'm taking into spending this amount of money when it may not be necessary or appropriated in the correct manner. you feel that my af3 kuzma/graham will will exceed the capabilities of my downstream components. Which downstream component/s were you referring to? Cartridge included I presume? I'm not upgrading to an AF1, or Graham Phantom Elite. Is the AF3 that big an upgrade? |
Yes, cartridge and phono stage for certain. As for other components and cables/cords - I don't know. I think, Ralph of Atma-Sphere was right when he once said that phono stage must be tube. Some will argue, of course, as always. Which one? Well, at this level you try to match precisely both with the cartridge and the rest of the chain. |
attymbb, A measured approach. Good for You, Wife, Finances and System. One thing at a time. Do let us know how the Ref Phono 3 audition goes. I am big on one manufacturer synergy. My list of contenders: sources....... - AF3 - TW Acoustic Black Knight - Kronos - AMG - Kuzma M - Technics 1200 G / wait for 10R Anyone, with the appropriate Arm. Cartridge, still your choice. You / plus system appears to be a real "Player" No one dealer can service us with in-home auditions on of all these. Its part of the reason why we have to go in "blind" on TTs. Especially at this level. Shows, travel to a dealer audition, maybe a friend, reviews, recommend by anyone? All these options are perilous. Big $ bets??? I can get a 2week in home with an AMG / My main dealer for 20 years. Who else will give me this? I might be able to get the Kuzma M / 4pt. The key word is "might" For this kind of $$$$$; I am almost willing to 'plane ticket a dealer' to bring and set up a table for a month long audition and if I buy get plane refunded. TTs are A Lot more effort. IMHO worth it. At this level your vpi 16.5 is useful for rinsing. How about a DeMag? How about a Record flatner/ Relaxer? And again, you will need a U.S. machine. Cartridges ? Yikes !!!!! Take your time. A few hundred records? Vinyl has been a 47yr endeavor for me. You'll get more satisfaction long term. Plus you can look forward to more new additions, more often. Do Not let Anyone punch your buttons on this. Use your Ears. Buyers Remorse and selling at a loss is an even more expensive option. Let us know how the audition goes. Best Wishes on your Journey |
If I were you, I'd wait for the new Technics before dropping that dime. FWIW, I owned an Innovation Wood with Universal Arm for a couple of years, with Graham Phantom II in second position. While I liked it well enough, I never really loved it (even on a Minus-K), preferring the drive and grip of my other deck, a Nantais Reference Lenco II. So I sold the Clearaudio and never regretted the decision. I'm not trying to diss the deck, because it is very good; I just never found it all that engaging. Later, I picked up a used Brinkmann Oasis at a good price, mainly because I wanted to check out direct drive. While not without its flaws, it is more to my taste (on the Minus-K) than the Innovation. It is better than the Lenco in its precision and timing, and not too far off in drive and grip. The point is: direct drive, done well, is pretty hard to beat. I'd bet the new Technics will be quite special and worth serious consideration. I'm planning to check it out. |
nkonor, Just read the review. I need to win the lottery as well to afford that combo, though it makes me want to go straight to my Techdas dealer. But, I will stick to the plan. update: my ARC dealer was hospitalized for a week so there's a delay in the home demo of the Ref Phono 3. Should be with me though by the end of the week. |
attymbb, Happy that your still with us. Excellent; yes, stick with the plan. At this level, jumping headfirst into things just gets us into trouble. Update: there is a post on Analog Planet about the prototype Technics 10R. It will be made to be able to be used with other tonearms. Another game changer for me. My desire is #1 AF3 / SAT combo or #2 Technics 10R / Tri-planar 12" combo. Cartridge of choice - TBD. Best Norb |
I always try to keep in mind that even on a six-figure turntable, and with all the attendant other expensive "stuff" to match it, in the end we are still playing vinyl discs that we may have spent 8 or 10 bucks on and that some previous owner probably played on his BSR changer. (Of course, it could also be a $500-Blue Note that someone once played on his BSR changer.) There's just a limit on what can be squeezed out of the grooves, and beyond a certain point, there's no upside. Attorney, I wasn't thinking of anything in particular in your downstream chain of components that would be inadequate to the task of reproducing the output of an AF3, but it would be something that would start to bug you. |
@lewm I think you may have it upside down. Leaving aside damaged LPs (including groove damage from mistracking that may only be evident on playing) my experience is that it is the LPs you’d given up on as “harsh”, “boring” or just plain bad that benefit the most from a tip top LP playing system. Often as your system gets more resolving the hifi show discs suddenly start sounding artificial and messed with and it’s old mono LPs, great classical, 50s jazz, or in my case 60s folk, that shows its true colors especially after a run throughout your ultrasonic cleaner so if your new LP system doesn’t make you want to spend hours with discs you’d previously written off as unplayable I’d argue it’s not really that good |
Folkfreak, I totally agree with you; as your vinyl system gets better, more of your "bad" LPs start to sound good to even great. We actually don't disagree on that. My point is that in terms of expense, you can go "all the way" (which means you can get to the point where further expenditure does not yield noticeable increases in fidelity or listening pleasure) without going to six figure turntables. (Many of the hyper-expensive turntables are pure bling, anyway, although I would not tar them all with that same brush.) |
A bit late, but i thought I'd chime in. I actually bought WRM57s Innovation several years ago to upgrade my old master solution. I have not had a DD to compare it too, but i thought it was pretty good from a speed control perspective. Recently, I accidentally left it running while leaving town for a weekend. When I came home, it appears the cat pulled off the belt, and the motor had quit working. So I called the dealer, and found out there is a new Innovation flat belt and pulley upgrade for $350, which I ordered along with a new motor pod for $1500. After install I noticed it's much higher torque and the sound is much more dynamic. PRaT is really good. It really surprised me how much better it sounds now. My dealer said the flat belt upgrade makes a big difference, but I think the new motor also made a difference. Not saying it competes with DD, as I've not heard any really top level Lencos or other designs, but it is in another league now compared to before. If buying a used Innovation, definitely get the flat belt/ pulley upgrade for $350, and consider getting a new motor pod if it's over 5 yrs old. |
I would suggest a contrast programm to reach vinyl audio heaven: Feickert Firebird (with option for a second tonearm) ViV Rigid Float DS Audio DS-002 With this combo your are not so far away from 20k including a phono pre and a cartridge and... most important you will not be able to really better it by spending the double or triple amount of money (beside maybe upgrading to the DS-W2). ;-) |
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attymbb, Congrats on your AF3 !!! Which arm, cartridge and phonostage are you using? I am sure that this rig will give you years of pleasure! Due to health issues; I need to stay with my #2 choice. Just the costs for this level of equipment is staggering. So; it will be a Technics SL 1200G, modded to take a 12” Triplanar arm and cartridge TBD. I will keep my Manley Steelhead and Pass XOno phonostages. Glad that you filled us in on your choice; so many of these threads just end and you never know the final outcome. Thanks for for sharing and again, Congratulations on your AF3 !!! Enjoy and my Best to You |
nkonor, Thank you for the congratulations. I have actually updated some stuff since I initially posted this thread. My complete system can be viewed at the virtual systems ( Sorry, don't know how to link it and I have to update the pics as well. To answer your questions: I'm using a Graham Phantom 1 tonearm, my old but still reliable Benz Lps and a ARC Reference Phono 3. I have a 2nd Graham Phantom 2 tonearm still waiting for the extra arm board I already ordered. My other cartridge, the MSL Ultra Eminent Bc is at Soundsmith as I accidentally bent the canitilever and the Transfiguration Proteus I recently purchased is back at the dealer's pending replacement due to a factory defect. In the meantime, I have a Koetsu Blue Lace and MSL Signature Gold on home demo. Can't you do a combo of the Af3 and Triplanar instead? A combination of your option 1 and option 2. The SAT arm though really good is quite costly. Just a suggestion. |
attymbb, Yes; Of course I would like the AF3 and TriPlanar combo. Funds are tight right now. Two (2) back surgeries and a diagnosis of MS in the last16 months. Believe it it or not; I am recovering from All these setbacks. Doctors and Therapist do agree that I am making an unbelievable comeback and think that I will recover 95% or better of my abilities. I am receiving an infusion of the Only drug approved by the FDA in 80 years for my condition. I need (2) infusions a year at a cost of $105,625.00 each. Wife says; that I should enjoy myself as much as I can. She is backing me 100%. I can appreciate the Technics/ Triplanar combo. I need to win that lottery that we mentioned. attymbb, Right now, my health is first. You have have a Great System right now. Simple and superbly executed. I could see a bit more room treatment but not too much. You took your time and implemented very well. I have been slowed down a bit but will fight my way back. I will be right behind you. Keep us updated on any evolutions of your system including room. (It is a major component) A couple more photos of the AF3. You have access to cartridges that I am interested in. Short reviews of them would be appreciated. My Best to you, Norbert |
Nkonor, I'm sorry to hear about your health issues. I'm glad that your on your way to recovery. Health is truly wealth and even winning the lottery isn't worth more than that ( though it can buy quite a number of gears though, hahaha). Take your time. Your health is more important and all this audio stuff will still be there when your healthy and ready. I'll take more pics one of these days. As to the room treatments you mentioned, I never took pics but I have them all over the room( mixture of absorbers and diffusers). I actually had to dial it down ( removed a lot of absorbers, the entire front wall except the last panel to the corners) to get more bass which I finally have but still have somewhat of slightly-rolled off highs. The cartridge demoes confirmed this as I have heard these cartridges before in friends systems. Chip |
Chip, I did go ahead and started my TT project. Technics SL 1200 G , modded to take a Triplanar Classic SE. with a Lyra Kleos Carttidge. Needed to curb my budget a bit. Still think that I will get a rig that can compete with the Big Guys. As with bobh; I am interested in any updates on your rig and arm / cartridge combos you choose. Best nkonor |
bobheinatz and nkonor, As an update, my MSL Ultra Eminent Bc should be on it's way back from Soundsmith. Hopefully, my aural memory can discern the similarities/differences between the Eminent vs. the Gold ( though I'm really eyeing the Platinum). My uncle and I did an A/B between the MSL Gold and the Koetsu Blue Lace. Both sounded really good. I wish I could afford both as they bring different things to the table( literally). My uncle liked the Koetsu/Graham combo so much that he purchased a Phantom 3 for his Innovation TT as he was not happy with the Clearaudio Universal Tonearm and Koetsu Tiger Eye combo that he had. In the meantime, I heard the new Top Wing Red Sparrow at the my dealer's ( personal unit ) and it sounded like it would fall between the Koetsu and MSL though I can't be sure without hearing it in my system. Hopefully, he'll have a demo unit soon but he claims they're hard to come by and he is in fact on a waiting list for his customers orders. Next on the agenda to is to hear an AirTight Opus 1 and Lyra Etna SL. My 2nd armboard hasn't arrived so there's time to do the rounds. Norbert, You finally got the Technics SL 1200G with the Triplanar, Congratulations. How is does it sound with the Kleos? I have actually never heard of any Lyra cartridges. I was about to pull the trigger on an Etna Sl and then got cold feet and got a Proteus instead. |
