Does this exist? Preamp/Streamer/DAC with MQA, Roon and more
I'm looking for a particular set of features that seem to be very hard to find in a stereo (2.1) product. My budget is preferably around $2,500 but there is some flexibility. Here's what I would like:
Must have -Preamp -Network streamer -DAC -Roon endpoint -MQA compatible (not interested in your opinion of MQA)
Want to have -HDMI inputs/output for video switching only and 2 channel audio (to allow TV sound through stereo) -Room correction -Subwoofer management
I recently purchased the newly released NAD C658 which, when adding the optional HDMI module, covers every must have and want to have (Dirac room correction is coming in a later FW update) for a total of $1,800. Perfect! The problem is that so far the thing sounds lousy. I'm trying to let it burn in more and see if Dirac comes and makes it better, but it's not looking good after the first few days. The DAC seems to be the problem. It seems to suffer from audible time smearing and sounds too clinical and harsh so I am suspect about Dirac helping with that.
I've also seen the SimAudio Moon 390 but it's $5,300 and doesn't have room correction or subwoofer management. On the less expensive end, SimAudio also has the Moon Ace for $2,900 which has the same features as the 390, minus the HDMI inputs. I'd use the preouts to my own amp since the Ace is an integrated amp.
Then there is the Aurender A10. It costs even more than the Moon 390 and doesn't have HDMI inputs.
Cambridge Audio has some well regarded streamers but they aren't Roon compatible.
Finally, there is the PS Audio DirectStream and DirectStream Junior. I recently purchased the DSJr since it can be had close to my budget and while it sounds incredible as a streamer and DAC, it's not viable as a preamp. I spoke to PS Audio about this and they recommend using a separate preamp for the DS and especially for the Jr. I can't remember exactly why but they told me the signal to noise ratio when used straight into an amp wasn't ideal. I tested this myself and found that the DSJr sounded better even running through a Marantz AV receiver as preamp than it did straight into my amp (the receiver uses pre-outs to the same amp). I don't want to run a DSJr through a Marantz receiver and if I blow the budget on the DAC, I won't be able to get a capable preamp worthy of mating with it. Plus I'm really trying to get down to fewer boxes.
Are there any other options out there that I'm missing?
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Second, when I connected a PS Audio DSJr through a Marantz AV receiver as preamp, then to the exact same Musical Fidelity amp and Monitor Audio speakers, the sound was GLORIOUS in comparison to the NAD"
You don't need amplification so a Pre-Processor would be ideal. Marantz Pre-Pro are readily available, both new and used. 7705 from Audio Advisor: $2199 NIB FYI- Kalman R was very surprised by the quality of the DAC in the next model up...8805, stating that it took upwards of $5k in external DACs to improve digital reproduction.
@iopscrl Perhaps you are right, it just seems silly to buy an 11.2 channel processor with all kinds of fancy processing to end up putting it on Pure Direct mode the entire time and use only 2.1 channels.
@rbstehno I'm gravitating in that direction. I already sold the PS Audio DAC but could buy another one. Interesting that their other preamp (the Stellar, I'm not counting the BHK due to budget) is also a preamp/DAC, so I wonder if that one really does work well as a preamp or not.
@drumnman2 Do you own the 658? Any listening impressions?
@golfmatchplayer The Oppo 205 looks pretty good but is discontinued and now people are asking 3x the MSRP for used ones. At the moment I don't really need any analog inputs because all stereo listening is through Roon streaming and TV audio is HDMI through a few sources (Bluray, Roku, Chromecast) that would probably just all be fed to the DAC from the TV via a single optical cable. Having an analog input or two would be nice for flexibility but isn't a requirement right now.
jnehma1 If it’s high quality sound you want, neither the Marantz or the Deqx are going to do the trick. Consider the Mytec Brooklyn but add a linear power supply and your Dave sound quality can be obtained. Beware HDMI swithching devises, if they do 4K, they frequently do NOT do Dolby Atmos. A recent struggle in my movie room.
This is a great question for me. I am looking for the exact same thing. I thought the NAD C658 was the solution. I am very sorry you were not satisfied. There are no "professional" reviews out, as of yet. Thanks for your incite.
You mentioned the PS Audio DACs and your Marantz. I also have a Marantz Pre/Pro 7703. I listen to my music and TV through its DAC. It is a good DAC for my music, but I wondered if I added a DAC into the audio chain, such as PS Audio's, could I hear the difference with average ears for my age. Please advise what difference you heard with the Jr. through your Marantz. Do you think the difference was great enough to be worth the addition of a separate DAC? Money is not the issue; hearing is the issue. There are numerous DACs I would look into, but before I go down this expensive and time consuming road, I would like to know if it is worth it or would I be just going down the rabbit hole with no satisfactorily positive solution at the bottom
In all honesty with the crazy cheap prices that Mytek Brooklyn DAC are appearing for sale lightly used I can highly recommend them. Huge improvement compared to a built in dac in an integrated amp. Now I have moved up further to a $4500 tube DAC and when I have sold a kidney or two it will likely be a Chord Dave in the rack (10k!)
At just over 1k for a used Brooklyn it is a move you will never regret.
@firstonetallguy I have two Marantz receivers in the house, both of which have only ever been used as processors (I use the pre-outs to separate amps). I don't know which DAC is in your 7703 versus the two receivers I have but I connected the PS Audio through both of them and the improvement was easily noticeable. It wasn't like oh my god night and day, but I could definitely hear improvements. Much better bass and mid-bass quality, a bit more clarity and resolution, a bit more air. I use Tidal via Roon so first off, it sounded much better via the PS Audio simply because it streams at full quality. The Marantz products aren't Roon Ready so I had to stream to them using Airplay, which downsamples everything to 48khz/16bit. But I also loaded some of my FLAC files to a USB stick and plugged that into one of the receivers. Playing those files through the HEOS app sounded MUCH better than the same song via Airplay. In fact, that difference was even greater than the one between the PS Audio and the USB stick through HEOS. But for real A/B comparisons, I skipped Airplay and just compared the USB stick through the receiver DAC against Roon streaming through the PS Audio.
Whether the cost is worth the difference is an individual question. MQA files, which only the PS Audio supports, sounded especially good so for me the improvement in quality across the board plus the added benefit of MQA made the PS Audio worth it. But I started getting upgraditis really badly and decided it would be better to sell the PS Audio and get the NAD as a simpler solution (I have a 4 year old and can't really set up a great system without putting it at risk of toddler-destruction). I'm starting to regret that decision...
I still think mine sounds good, and gets better by the day. Like many other components, it is very particular about what you feed it. Bad recordings sound bad, great recordings sound great. I keep hearing from folks that think it is harsh, bright, etc. Maybe because I’m a trumpet player, I think if anything it can err on the side of being a little laid-back and not as engaging as the best stuff I’ve heard and owned. When I auditioned it against an M12, this was my takeaway, too - it did not seem as "energized". However, that was a C658 straight out of the box vs an M12 with at least a few hundred hours on it, if not more. The M12 is also another ~$2500 if you add the BluOS module.
There has been a lot of criticism about the choice of chip set for the C658. Please forgive this very naive and stupid question, for which I’m pretty sure I already know the answer, but is there a way to upgrade the chip set, or is it like trying to perform a brain transplant? Again, apologies for a stupid question, but I’m curious if that might be an option down the road.
@jnehma1 are you aware that you can stream MQA directly to your Marantz from a PC. I was searching for ways to do this for a while. This can be done with software called Audirvana that is available for PC and Mac. You can download it and try it out for 30 days to see if it works for you.
So the way it would work is you would log on to TIDAL through Audirvana, choose songs via this interface and Audirvana would do the first MQA unfold (up to 24/96). This is then sent wirelessly to your Marantz via a protocol called UPnP (it's similar to AirPlay but is not proprietary to Apple and it supports hi-res formats). The setup is really simple, Audirvana will automatically detect UPnP from your Marantz and show it as an available output.
There may be other ways to emulate a UPnP connection to your Marantz so you can stream directly from the Tidal app, but I haven't investigated this, and if so, it may be a more complicated setup. If Audirvana works for you then you could investigate other options, or choose to buy the software.
I too have been investigating dedicated preamp / DAC / MQA for stereo that supports home theater bypass to potentially improve sound quality over my Marantz AV8802a. The Simaudio Moon 390 is a strong contender, but to be honest, the sound quality from the Marantz is pretty good.
Definitely MQA streamed via Audirvana is a notable step up. Audirvana also can up-sample 16/44 to whatever your prepro supports (and more importantly your network bandwidth will allow). Upsampling does improve SQ as well.
Interesting thread. I'll need to look at Audirvana. Thanks Edsky.
I'll be trying both the DSJ and a NAD M12. I also have the 7703 and plan on replacing it with the T758v3 for the HT room. Auditioned the C658 and didn't feel it was that much better than the 2i. Maybe I should have kept it longer and given it a better assessment. Goal is to try and simplify as much as possible, but I'm steadily moving up the DAC $$$ food chain looking for the right product.
I'm now listening to the M10. Love the build and ease of use. Unfortunately, not using the nCore amp as I have a pair Emotiva Stealth 8s that I'm using in my stereo room. If you remember my post over at AVSforum, my kids are older and I now have more time to listen. Love all the new options with streaming, MQA and miss how good 2 channel audio can be..
@edsky Thanks for the feedback. Unless I am missing something though, there's no difference between what you described with Audirvana and what I can do today with Roon. In either case, the software does the first unfold but since my receiver is not MQA compatible, it wouldn't be able to do the final decode.
@mbolek Anxious to hear your feedback regarding the M10 and the T758. I don't know anything about the Emotiva speakers but assuming by your response that they are active. Do you have any passive speakers to test?
Yes. Emotivas are active. I have Monitor Audio SoundFrame in-walls in the HT room.
They are nice but may not be a fair speaker to test with the M10 or any of these higher $$ DACs. May be able to get my hands on some KEF R3s. That would be a better comparison.
@jnehma1 quite right, you can do the same with Roon. My apologies as I forgot you had Roon, as you were describing AirPlay as the mechanism you used to stream to your Marantz. I hear very good things about Roon. Though very pricey, I may give it a try someday.
If I may ask, how do you have your components set up? Are you using your AV processor and NAD pre amp to the same amplifier and speaker, or do you have two completely different setups? If using the same amplifier and speakers then I assume you run the Marantz AV pre outs into the analogue inputs of the NAD and run that in home theatre bypass mode?
@edsky Initially I had the Marantz receiver in the family room due to the need for dual purpose with tv viewing. I run the preouts to my Musical Fidelity amp, so the receiver just acts as a preamp and DAC. I purchased the NAD to replace the receiver as a better preamp and DAC, plus give me direct Roon streaming rather than Airplay. I don’t plan to setup an HT bypass since the family room is just a 2.1 setup. I have a separate media room with surround sound.
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