Amongst the classic Dynavector LOMC i see not only 23RS Rubby (Micro Ridge), but also 17DS Diamond (Micro Ridge). For some reason they call it "REACH" profile. Obviously the "S" models are very rare and much more refined as i can read from the manual: "The Karat 23RS MR phono cartridge from Dynavector Systems, Ltd., is a further developed version of the original low-output, moving coil designs first introduced by the Japanese audio company with its DV Karat and Ruby models in 1979. The more evolved 23RS MR improved on this approach with new features designed to produce minimum dispersion, widest frequency response, and more superior tracking ability at a reasonable price. It's solid, tapered ruby cantilever provides better tracking at lower moving mass than the conventional 23R model. Iits uniquely shaped Micro Reach stylus maintains the same contact radius with a record's grooves over long playing times, with no change. The resulting sound reproduction is characterized by extremely high definition and wide dynamic range coupled with low distortion." Ruby and Diamond cantilevers are very attracvtive and Micro Ridge stylus is so complicated and it has the longest life up to 2000 hrs or even more. I'm wondering what is the advantages of super short pure diamond cantilever of 17DS MR compared to slightly longer Ruby cantilever of 23RS MR ? Has anyone compared both models? |
@bpoletti yep, i've seen many Karat Nova samples for sale in the past few years, but this time i'm not looking for headshell integrated versions. Our @dover made some nice posts about them, including those about Raul's re-cantilevered sample installed upside down in the original shell and listed for sale like that.
Also this Karat Nova is overpriced all the time, the 23RS Ruby MR and 17DS Diamond MR both have better value even NOS. |
@lewm
- "D" is for diamond cantilever, "R" is for ruby cantilever.
- "MR" is for "Micro Reach" aka Micro Ridge stylus profile.
- "S" is for special calibrated models as far as i know
These applies to the classic models made up to the late 80s, the 17d2 is from 1988.
Earlier models from the 70’s does not have Micro Ridge profiles, they are not special calibrated, i believe they are not as good as the "S" and "MR" upgraded versions.
The "D3" and later models are modern Dynavector cartridges from the 90’s and later on. |
If we will look at Dynavector catalog of cartridges we will not find anything with Ruby cantilever anymore. But the Diamond cantilever is still there on 17D3.
"Its very short (1.7mm) solid diamond cantilever give a huge reduction in 'frequency dispersion', unmatched dynamics and a high frequency extension all the way up to 100kHz. The latest patented magnet circuit design increases the output to 0.3mV with crystal clear mid-range and treble even during the largest symphonic crescendos.
The main change to the new Dynavector 17D3 is an improvement in the design of the front yoke. This appears, on the surface, to be a small difference yet contributes to a greatly improved overall performance justifying a model number change. The Dynavector Karat is notable for its gemstone cantilever. This 1.7mm long by 0.25mm diameter solid diamond cantilever has its 0.07 square mm stylus mounting hole precision cut by laser. The Micro Ridge Stylus of 0.07 square mm nude diamond is securely and accurately bonded to the cantilever. The armature of 0.9mm square and 0.4mm thick is much smaller than normal, upon which are wound 60 turns per channel of 12 micron fine wire."
Specs for 17D3 in comparison of the specs for 17DS:
Output Voltage:
0.3 mV ///////
0.2 mV (5 cm / sec 1 kHz)
Channel Separation:
25 dB
/////// 20 dB (1 kHz)
Frequency response:
20 - 100,000Hz ///////
20 - 90,000Hz
Compliance:
15 x 10-6 /////// 15 x 10-6 cm/dyn
Tracking force:
1.8 - 2.2 grams ///////
1.7 - 2.0 grams
DC resistance:
32Ω ///////
32Ω
Cantilever:
1.7mm length, 0.25dia solid diamond //// .... ???
Stylus:
Micro-Ridge .... ///////
0.08 × 3 mil Micro-Ridge
Weight
5.8 g
///////
5.3 g
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Here is what i found using time machine on this forum about rare Dynavector 23RS and 17DS first quote from David's post in 2011:
My first listen (about 1 hour) to the Dynavector DV-23RS last night.... this cartridge sounds clearly different to all the others I have tried. Much too early to get analytic about it - and I will test it thoroughly in due course... but there is definitely something to the short cantilever thing.... Other than the Decca, I don't believe I know of other short cantilever cartridges.... - David @dlaloum secong quote is from Raul's old post:
I own the 23R and owned the 17DS and Nova 17D2, both an improvement over the 23R. On those times the latest and top of the line was the Nova 13D that was very expensive but where any one that had the opportunity to own it or heard it always told was just great. -Raul
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Thanks everybody. It looks like a nice Dynavector Fan Club here.
I have a question:
Will you accept (for example) rare DV 23RS MR in mint condition if the Ruby Cantilever is slightly off-centered? I’m not sure what to do, got the cartridge today from the postman, delivered from USA and supposed to be excellent with box and all the docs, but the cantilever is not perfectly centered :( (bad luck)
Actually i have a few other cartridges with conventional long cantilevers, some of them are off-centered, but i can twist the cart in headshell and make it spot on with Feickert protractor. Unfortunately it’s not possible with every headshell, but it can be done with some headshells.
However, i’m not happy that seller offerend me Dyna with cantilever turned to one side (and never mentioned this problem), i am a bit mad about it, i think i can return it for full refund. But it's a rare cartridge with Micro Ridge stylus, the overall package looks mint.
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That's funny, Pani
An average carts does not comes with Diamond Cantilevers |
Let’s wain till @lewm will check them out, because i do not have the ART-7 or ART-9 to compare and why should i concern about those ATs? You sold yours as far as i know, so the flavour of the month faded away.
I like $500-700 cartridges (or let’s say under $1200 max), some of them are amazing and this is the right price tag for "normal" audiophiles. I am more happy to buy $700 cartridge every 3 month while i am searching for perfection, than spending $3k on the wrong LOMC once and then another 60% of that price for retip.
In fact Stanton CS-100 WOS and Pioneer PC-1000 mkII moving magnet cartridges are so good in my system than i can’t remove them. Still unbeatable by any expensive LOMC imo.
Lats night i have mounted DV 23RS MR (special calibrated with Micro Ridge stylus) and i was blown away, i was sceptical about it, but this cartridge is so fast, so dynamic, so real. It’s easily compete with FR-7f, but DV 23RS MR is mid-high compliance (at least 26cu @10Hz) and low mass cartridge for lighweigh tonearms (i would recommend for Technics tonearms).
I am happy to join Dynavector fan club.
P.S. My buddy @nandrik should try those Dyna, highly recommended |
Here is a nice interview with Dr Tominari of Dynavector Systems, who designed the first gemstone cantilever cartridge and later designed fabulous XV-1 and DRT XV-1. In this interview you will find more about Te-Kaitora cartridges, Karat Nova series and many more amazing products of that era. here is a bit from the interview: RG. The first Dynavector product I became aware of was the original Karat cartridge, with its solid ruby cantilever. Were you the first person to employ gemstone cantilevers?
Dr. Tominari: Absolutely. I get my gemstone cantilevers from Namiki, and the first time I asked them about constructing one they couldn’t understand what I wanted such a large stylus for! But I was convinced that you should use as short and stiff a cantilever as possible. This was quite widely recognised but no one believed that the technology existed to create such a short gemstone cantilever. They thought it was impossible but I dared to try it. It was a very unusual solution at that time. In order to achieve it we had to develop a parallel technique that enabled us to wind incredibly fine wire for the coil. Our wires are only 11 microns in diameter. Every other cartridge uses at least 20 microns.
RG. Why do the fine wires help you use in using a short cantilever?
Dr. Tominari: At the end of the cantilever is the armature. On the very short gemstone cantilevers there is no space, so the armature must be much smaller than normal. Unless we use the fine wire for the coils there will be insufficient windings for a working output level. We did this twenty years ago, and are still the only company who can use such fine wire. Eric Rohmann, who was president of Ortofon until some years ago, even tried to buy one of our machines. Incidentally, you are aware that Ortofon and Grado hold all the patents on moving-coil cartridge designs. Dynavector was the only Japanese company that ever paid the licence fees. (Laughs) |
Thinking about model numbers i just realized where it came from, how simple, just the magic of the numbers: DV-23r is for 2.3mm cantilever, DV-17d is for 1.7mm cantilever. Here is a picture of gemstone Ruby cantilever of my 23RS-MR under macro lens. Reading the manual i’ve noticed the "S" is for "Super" and applied to both 23 and 17 models with Micro Reach styli. @harold-not-the-barrel I thing so, but off-centered cantilevers are not for perfectionists, and when it comes to sales the price must be rediced for this reason, so i decided to ship it back to the seller. At least i know that 23RS-MR is a great cartridge after a demo of the perfect one from my mate. I wish i could find a perfect sample. This is definitely one of the carts that Technics GAE, G, GR owners should try on Technics tonearm! Also EPA-100 tonearm owners. P.S. Sending back my defective DV23RS MR i got NOS Klipsch MCZ-10 Ruby in. I think @nandric owned some of them, but not Ruby. There is a Diamond version too. They are designed by another legend Mr. Hiroaki Hibino for Paul Klipsch. |
@lewm Western world is not familiar what's going on in Japan, here is a prime example.
Dr Hibino also produced the same carts under his own brand name Zenn MCZ in Japan. In the 80's, Klipsch company designed a special moving coil cartridge with four models: - MCZ-2 (with special aluminum alloy cantilever) - MCZ-7 (with ultra stiff boron cantilever) - MCZ-10 (with pure ruby cantilever) - MCZ-110 (with pure diamond cantilever) and commissioned famous Hinoaki Hibino (from Hibino Electro Sound, Inc., Japan) with their manufacturing. Each Klipsch cartridge was handcrafted, made to precise specs and tested under direct supervision of Mr. Hibino.
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@lewm
Guys. This must be an Eastern European thing. I never ever heard of a Klipsch cartridge or a Zenn cartridge, either.
Then it would be easier for you to check your DV-17D3 which must be great cartridge. If you can compare them side by side with ART-7 on DV tonearms it would be a great mini review. I am looking forward to read your opinion. |
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Thanks @harold-not-the-barrel for a kind words, i am glad my contribution on this forum is interesting for some people. I miss old days of the audiogon when we had a cartridge of the month over the years when i was only a reader of this forum. Now when we have "what's the best phono stage" threads every week from different users it's getting a bit boring. Also when cartridge recommendations comes to the same 3-5 modern models in every thread it is also boring. Luckily we have the world of vintage cartridges and i am trying to discover some hidden gems (at least for myself). I don't care about digital at all, you are right, my passion is vintage vinyl (original pressings).
Appart from my short experience with KARAT 23RS MR from the 80's i was very impressed by this NOS Klipsch MCZ-10 i've bought recently. Both cartridges have Ruby cantilevers, but they are completely different. The Klipsch has push-pull damper, nude VITAL profiles diamond (i'd like to find more about this profile), Samarium-Cobalt magnet, Special Yoke ... Impedance is 2 Ohm, Output is 0.2mV, Recommended tracking force is 1.8g and the compliance is 10cu (it's a low compliance cartridge if this figure measured at 10Hz, no info in the manual). Since it was a sealed ( NOS) cartridge i need some time to mage judgement. But this is one of those MC that you love from the start, i use ZYX CPP-1 headamp and JLTi MM input and this is a pure magic, it could be a cart of the month and probably it will be. Not so long ago i bought NOS Lustre GST-801 toneam new in the box, this sample works just fine (magnetic tracking force, magnetic antiskating), much better than my previous sample of this arm which i sold. I am very positive about this Klipsch cartridge, love the silky bass, liquid midrange, and not overestimated highs.
@nandric I have not exceeded my red line for cartridges or tonearms, everything fine, it is not more expensive for me, i love to keep on digging and sometimes i got my prize like some rare cartridge in NOS condition for reasonable price (what can be better). When we have many great cartridges it's hard to choose which one is better, because good cartridges are all good. This is became my problem, so it is more about how to use them (which arm, phono stage etc). Still a lot of things to learn and try. |
I just don’t know of any modern LOMC cartridges than can be purchased for $500-700 like those NOS vintage top models we’re talking about here. Especially with Ruby or Diamond cantilevers. Remember the price for a brand new Ortofon Anniversary with Diamond cantilever, was it $16k?
Diamond cantilever was invented by Dr.Tominari of Dynavector Systems, KARAT was the first cartridge with Diamond cantilever in the world. |
The goal of Dynavector is not ONLY diamond cantilever as an eye candy factor, but a very short 1.7 mm length diamond cantilever, here is a picture of my Karat 17DS Super under macro lens (they even made 1.3 mm version of Karat Nova for US market only), the self resonance of such cantilever is above 100kHz! Also extremely thin coil wire that even Eric Rohmann (ex Ortofon president) was trying to buy Dynavector machines to produce such wires. Read Dr.Tominari (Dynavector Systems) interview: "Most high quality cartridges are based on extremely simple structures developed fifty years ago, and very old fashioned in their use of magnetic materials. Instead I use eight Alnico magnets to create a much more uniform magnetic field. The results of experiments were so impressive to me that I immediately incorporated this technique into a new cartridge, the XV1." The prism RUBY cantilever of my DV-23RS MR does not looks like a conventional Ruby cantilevers, actually conventional Ruby cantilevers has the same length as the Boron or Aluminum cantilevers. I think averyone can buy Dynavector with Diamond cantilever for reasonable price around $700, but Orotofon Anniversary for $16k is insane (it's a form of illness, imo) ! |
@harold-not-the-barrel i've bought one of my Technics cartridges from this seller long time ago and will never buy again as the suspension was dead and he has not mentioned that in the listing, then claimed it's normal. Basically i do not trust the sellers who's trying to hide defects of the goods in their listing, it's unfair. |
thanks @harold-not-the-barrel
@nandric yes, my latest story with Dynavector (with slightly off-centered cantilever) ended up with refund via ebay/paypal, which i am still waiting. Paypal even covers return shipping, but anyway ... no problem with the seller of Dyna who's accepted return.
Normally i am getting mad when professional sellers trying to play a fools when it comes to cartridge defects they are trying to hide from the potential buyers. It is not forgiving for pro sellers, but the story with that japanese seller was at least 5-6 years ago and i was too naive. I was cheated at that time by several sellers, some of them are well known, but dishonest. |
But the manufacturer of modern Micro Ridge stylus says 2000 hours is no problem. ZYX comes with the Micro Ridge for example.
Dynavector call it Micro REACH
500hrs is a life of elliptical stylus |
Diamond cantilever invented by Dr.Tominari of Dynavector Systems is completely different from any other diamond cantilevers. This is was Tominari-San explained in his interview i’ve posted above. If anyone can add any other cantilever like that please post here. The shape of this Diamond Prism remind me a bit of the cantilever of the Glanz 71L (but that one was aluminum and longer). Diamond cantilever of SONY is way too long compared to Dyna Karat 17D cantilever is 1.7mm long, but the Karat Nova 13D diamond cantilever is only 1.3mm long (extremely short). I don’t know of any other cartridges with such a short diamond cantilevers. Anyone? |
@nandric the advantages of KARAT is that with 100Khz resonance of the cantilever there is no need to use rubber as a damping medium as it used in conventional design. In the KARAT, rubber is used only for seating the cantilever on the pole piece. SONY cartridges you’re talking about are notorius for suspension/damper problems, so the design is competely different. P.S. Check my image of KARAT 17DS MR and tell me if you can see any glue. This is the 23RS MR Ruby version: https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36226177_2287496551268499_2734494721178075136_n.jpg?_n... |
It's obvious that Dyna's "Micro Reach" nude diamond goes throught the whole Diamond cantilever for superb rigidity, not just glued on top. So there is no amount of glue visible even under my macro lens, must be minimum. This generation of Micro Reach stylus has low mass and the cartridges have relatively high compliance for an MC, about 30cu @ 10Hz Tominari-San explained in the interview: "I get my gemstone
cantilevers from Namiki, and the first time I asked them about constructing
one they couldn’t understand what
I wanted such a large stylus for! But
I was convinced that you should use as
short and stiff a cantilever as possible.
This was quite widely recognised but
no one believed that the technology
existed to create such a short gemstone
cantilever. They thought it was
impossible but I dared to try it. It was
a very unusual solution at that time.
In order to achieve it we had to
develop a parallel technique that
enabled us to wind incredibly fine
wire for the coil. Our wires are only
11 microns in diameter. Every other
cartridge uses at least 20 microns." I believe he was the FIRST designed who asked NAMIKI to produce gemstone cantilever for him.
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@nandric well, the conventional glued stylus looks like your recent re-tip with a drop of glue around the tip, so you can check and compare to Dyna. I'm not trying to say Dynavector is better than others, but Dynavector has its own originality in many aspects of design. To like it or not is a matter of taste, personal preferences and system. That's it. |
After release of the $5k ART-1000 the price for Victor MC-L1000 jumped to the stratosphere. This MC-L1000 was an inspiration for the Audio-Technica designer. Those cartridges with printed coil is very fragile and 90% of them have some problems with output, normally one channel is dead or even both. The Victor MC-1 was the first Victor Direct Coupled cartridge and i bought a few samples, one of them has arrived, but one channel is dead. I also got my free broken sample from Nikola. I am waiting for the 3-rd sample, fingers crossed. SoundSmith reported this upon my request: "It is typically nearly impossible to repair the foil conductors on these. It depends where the failure is." Many years ago my virtual friend discovered a bunch of NOS MC-1 dead stock on Grand Canaria island at some old vinyl shop. At that time i was fascinated by my AT ART-2000 and refused to buy NOS Victor MC-1 from him, the price was acually very low, i regret it now (when all of his stock sold out). |
The 13D was made for US market only, it was a special development of the 17D according to the interview with its designer (Tominari-San): " At first when I tried short cantilevers I worked in sapphire or ruby and their resonance dictates a length of 2.5mm. But in Diamond, it is possible to use 1.7mm. We even made a very special product for the US high end market with a cantilever only 1.3mm long, and called the Karat 13D. It was our flagship model and sold nearly 60 pieces in America. The 17D was the first diamond cantilevered cartridge that we made, and the 13D was a very special development of it, using a special body and headshell arrangement. " - Dr. Tominari (Dynavector Systems) Dyna cartridges such as XX1 (first) with Flux-Damper and later all Dynavectors cartridges "involves winding a wire around the front yoke of the cartridge. Experiments showed that movement of the coils was generating a voltage in the yoke which in turn effects the linearity of the magnetic flux. It is this that makes many poor movingcoil designs sound thin and irritating. By short circuiting the yoke we prevent this happening, which leads to a much smoother and more natural high frequency balance. The effect is quite noticeable, which is why we put a switch on the XX1, so that people could hear the effect."
- Dr. Tominari (Dynavector Systems)
Speaking of the further development of the mighty Dynavectors such as XV1 and Te-Kaitora i would say that the long boron cantilever looks unprotected and extremely fragile. I would avoid using such cartridges for practical reason, but it’s just me. |
Below is the answer from Doctor Noburu Tominari himslf for those who’re asking why top models comes with long Boron cantilever.
RG. "I notice that neither the XX1, the Te-Kaitora nor the XV1 use gemstone cantilevers. Why is that?"
Dr.Tominari (Dynavector Systems): "At the moment, the construction of this magnetic assembly used in these cartridges requires a long cantilever. It would be very difficult to engineer this for a short cantilever, and also very, very expensive."
Dr.Tominari
(Dynavector Systems):
"The Te-Kaitora is really just a special version of the XX1 made for Mr Denson who distributes Dynavector products in Japan and also builds the Dynavector electronics. It has no body, and uses better magnets and selected parts. And also better quality wires as well."
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@harold-not-the-barrel actually Tominari-San has mentioned 60 samples of Karat Nova 13D made for US market, but is there any model number on your cartridge? You should know that "13" in the model number is for the 1.3 length of the cantilever. I hope your sample is not re-cantilevered Karat Nova 13D ?
"KARAT" is for gemstone cantilever, never heard about any KARAT with Boron cantilever.
Any chance that your sample is not the original, but a refurbished (re-cantilevered) one ?
When it comes to diamond cantilever for re-tipper it is impossible to find anything like the original short dyna gemstone cantilever. Those special gemstone cantilever were made for dynavector by Namiki. |
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I think each innovation usually patented by the person/company who invented them. Each cartridge designer/manufacturer invented their own unique things. This is why each cartridge is different and we can decide which one is better in our systems.
For example 7 unique patents belongs to ZYX in design of the Premium 4D model as i can read in the manual that comes with my 4D. Each cartridge designer believes that his cartridge is the best ever.
Here is Nakatsuka-San (ZYX) statement:
"For both MC and MM cartridges, 15 vital design points apply, however they are not the same in each caswe. Only in our ZYX series have these points been correctly identified and attended to, and thus only the ZYX series can play Real Stereo. The 15 vital design points for a MC cartridge are as follows" :
1. Magnetic pole direction
2. Coil winding direction
3. Coil winding method
4. Prevention of dynamic included current in the coil bobbin
5. Prevention of dynamic included current in the magnetic circuit
6. method of prevention of dynamic included current
7. Prevention of dynamic included magnetic flux in the magnetic circuit
8. Grounding of coil bobbin (yes or no and method therof)
9. Grounding of yoke (yes or no and method thereof)
10. Grounding of magnet
(yes or no and method thereof)
11. String of output terminals
12. Case material (metallic or non-metallic)
13. Grounding of case
(yes or no and method thereof)
14. Electrical connection between cartridge case and headshell
15. Direction of wire drawing
Now we can look at the Miyajima cartridges (for example, as the oppositeto ZYX) to see that these cartridges are completely different compared to ZYX. Miyajima-San invented cross-ring method, cantilever of his top cartridges made of exotic bamboo and the cartridge body made of exotic hardwood.
Which cartridge is better? There is no direct answer. All i can say they are very expensive cartridges. But when it comes to some $20k cartridges i'm getting sick of it. I would rather buy reel to reel instead. Spending 20k on a cartridge is like buyin yourself a private jet. Definitely not for every audiophile. And i don't care if they are better, the price is insane! |
Your cartridge, Harold, is most likely refurbished/recantilevered 13D, but not the original. The index "13" is nothing else but the length of the Diamond Cantilever (1.3 mm). Your Dyna has Boron Cantilever of the different
length, if the length of the cantilever is not 1.3mm it is not the original. |
@lewm
Saw something interesting on the spec sheet for the 17D3; the internal resistance is 38 ohms! This means don’t use the standard 100 ohm load that one would normally use for an LOMC with 0.3mV output. It also means that the 17D3 has relatively large coils and relatively weak magnets. I am in no way saying or thinking that these numbers predict mediocre sound quality. As I recall, when it was introduced, the 17D3 was something of a giant killer at its original price. I still have not auditioned mine, which has very low hours from new. (It is from the estate of my dearest audiophile friend; I was consulted on his decision to purchase it, although he was at least as knowledgeable as I will ever be.) I actually heard it on his system once or twice before his symptoms of dementia became very advanced. We both liked it.
I would load mine at no lower than 1000R, maybe 47K.
Chakster, how do you load your 17DS? I can't remember, but most likely i've tried 470 or 2200 on JLTi phono stage with that Dynavector. BTW with my Ortofon MC2000 i use only 47 Ohm on the Gold Note PH-10 phono stage, because recommended load impedance for this cartridge is 20-100 Ohm (stated in the manual). Cartridge internal impedance DC resistance is 3 Ohm. |
I just ordered a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua
Let us know what you think, must be a great cartridge |
The only problem of those Te-Kaitora and X-1s Dyna cartridges is unprotected cantilever which is so easy to destroy assidentally. Some other carts on the market from various manufacturer have the same problem, personally i would never buy any of them for this reason. I feel better with conventional design, when the cantilever is under the cartridge body and protected from left and right side a bit better. |
Upgraded to DV KARAT 17D2 mkII recently, another Dynavector in collection. Any users of this beast ? review on enjoythemusic |
@harrylavo Dynavector made several versions of KARAT Ruby, the better version have "MicroReach" stylus profile, the older version has just an Elliptical stylus.
Same about Karat Diamond, the better versions are all have MicroReach and MicroRidge diamonds.
I think this is a huge advantage over the old versions, because the life-span of Elliptical stylus is too short, but the MicroReach (MicroRidge) can be used for 1500-2000 hrs max. |
