Being able to find the weakest link when upgrading is really, really important. Otherwise a different new component may never really be able to show how it is better. Since the other ’weak’ component(s) is(are) masking the new components better sound.
This is a difficult problem.
My best example is not exactly about the least sound quality, but it may show something about it. I upgraded a good portion of my equipment all at once when I retired. And I still had in my system an old DAC I bought used. When I received most of the new components (including new preamp, new amp, new speakers and a new turntable and cartridge), I was comparing my old DAC with the new one. And found no sonic difference. I mean I tried every way I could and could not hear any difference between them/ So either I just wasted $25,000 for nothing or?? I was very frustrated. Anyway, after three weeks I got another new bit which had to be ordered and built . When I plugged in the phono box, an epiphany and a flood ot tears.. My $25,000 of new equipment really was better. Since the phono box sounded glorious, thus it made it clear all the rest of the system WAS NOT holding back the new DAC. That new DAC was actually just not any better than my old one. And I returned it.
And unless I just happened to acquire that new phono box a week later, I would have been stumped why the new DAC (which was praised to the skies by both Stereophile and TAS) was not doing better. I was seriously bummed and confused about wasting a ton of money... until I played the new phono box.
Now it was kind of odd that the two DACs, one, used for $250 )it’ original list price was $1,000) and the other $2,400 and 12 years newer) could sound so alike. But chance happened. (And toss in the official guru magazine praise with it all) ==================================================================
Anyway, how do we find the right part to upgrade? Since making the wrong choice can leave one in the same boat I was in back in my example? (at least until I got the phono box)
I do not have an answer. and I ask.. does anyone? For me it is just kind of a sixth sense, with little real science to it.
In general I have been kind of lucky. But how do I know I have managed well?
I do not know. It has been better more often than not. (Though I have made a few really terrible choices over many years now and then. Costly choices)
Anyway, my question is how do you make the choice of what to upgrade? How do you know or decide which is you weakest component?
And do you agree finding the weakest component is really important in the path of upgrading, or one might be making expensive mistakes buying gear, or trying gear? (which may really be great, yet you cannot hear it due to some other weak links in the chain? And though I hate to say so, this weak link may even be cables, or powercords or even the AC from the wall*.
*(but please do not get into a big theory arguments about interconnects and powercords and power conditioners.) Stick to the main topic of knowing how to find the weakest link.
The reason that folks talk about a hierarchy of component contribution to sound quality is that it sets expectations on what degree of improvement is possible. It also relates to your theory of constraints question in that something like a DAC could never be a bottleneck since they are all now essentially equal. I agree with roberjerman about the speakers. I would add you need to measure/ understand your listening room to know if that is a potential path for a sound quality upgrade.
Random weak links: very low frequency vibration, RFI/EMI generates by microchips inside electronics, RFI/EMI carried by House AC, RFI/EMI coming in from outside, magnetic fields generated by large transformers, 60 cycle hum from transformers, direction of all wire, cables and fuses, scattered background laser light, as well as some other things outside scope.
The room is the weakest link. Next is the setup itself. Then speakers. Then everything else.
Get your current system dialed-in to play the room. This takes patience and dedication. Jim Smith's book Get Better Sound is invaluable. Dedicated room with acoustic treatment. Then, and only then, consider spending money on "upgrades".
You're not going to find that weakest link until you try something else. You need not overthink all of this (I wish I could follow my own advice).
My recent purchase of new speakers completely changed the way I listen, which opened another can 'o worms. I know you don't want to hear about cables but through some trial and error, that is where it has to be made up now, with my speaker cables. I'm sticking with the same brand and only going up to a thicker gauge and hopefully, that will be that.
It's a fine balancing act that's done and once you pull out that straw, you upset that balance, and must be prepared to carefully suss things out.
Here is your truth; upgrade anything, as there are endless levels of improvement to all systems.
The only way to know with certainty is to know a product line or have compared any given component to several others. Or, learn what a particular technology can or cannot do. All components of systems are weak links relatively. Start upgrading anywhere in the rig, and you'll see.
I don't think there's any rigorous method that can be applied (as you usually can with substitutions when tracking down a specific wiring problem).
You could serially get a much more expensive/highly regarded model of each component in the system, and swop it in, and see which substitution produced the biggest positive change, but then you'd be ignoring system synergies to say nothing of issues of output and input impedances. And other variables as well.
Most of us, most of the time, go on gut feeling. Reinforced, perhaps, if one of the components is older than the others or not so highly regarded or notionally "out of line" of whatever you think that component should cost as a % of the total system.
As you mentioned previously, changing the phono stage proved to be a considerable upgrade in your system. That was by trial and error, and luckily your phono stage was an upgrade on the previous one. It didn't mean that the system was an upgrade.
I would surmise that if your current loudspeakers are a full bandwidth design then the only way for you to determine whether they are the weak link is by direct comparison with alternative options. If funds allow you could even audition state of the art equipment to determine where your system might be lacking.
The same would go for turntables /arms/ cartridges and for tube amps if applicable in your case.
In an imperfect world it might be wise to first determine just what you are looking for before throwing any more money at it.
Assembling an audio system is not always a simple case of buying expensive components and hoping for the best. There is nothing like comparison when it comes to audio. You'll know it when you hear it, if you don't then you can pass.
The discussion has kind of wandered off 'how to find the weakest link' (in one's current system, to upgrade etc) to a 'what are the components order of importance.' Which has been discussed many many times in other threads. Though the order of importance does matter greatly in how we decide what should be upgraded next. I would like to stick to how to find the weakest link in setup already in use. I agree it is hard to define, but I am hoping for some insights.
timlub, I sold the Adcom preamp years ago! I bought a Bryston BP-26 almost 8 years ago. (when I also upgraded amp and speakers)
#1 Speakers It gets harder after that. #2 Analog components (power/pre amps, capacitors, tubes - if equipped, power supplies, etc) #3 Digital components (digital side of DACs, CD transports, network streamers, etc) #4 Interconnects (not sure if these would make any difference but according to many, they do)
Upgrading can be a difficult, expensive, time consuming path which eventually leads you back to where you started from.
However there is a generally accepted hierarchy worth bearing in mind.
The listening room plays a big part. Some rooms are just more lively than others.
The recording / remastering can also make a huge difference. There are an awful lot of digital recordings that have fallen victim to the crude dynamic compression used in making music sound fuller/punchier through small loudspeakers as found in radios, TVs etc
If one HiFi component significantly measures poorly for distortion, it is the loudspeaker. This is where you need to focus your attention because this is the area where everyone can hear differences. Hardly surprising since the sheer variety of design can be bewildering. Different cone materials, cabinet designs, drive unit size, crossover decisions, etc etc.
The other major area where you can find vast improvements is in the area of vinyl playback. Once you move past something like the Pro-ject Classic to something like the new Technics decks (various 1200s) improvements start to rapidly diminish. There's only so much improvement in speed stability and resonance control and tracking performance that remains possible.
Valve amplification is seen by some as a mere cosmetic difference but it may be one you prefer.
As for the rest, amplifiers, CD players, DACs, cables, etc there is little or no supporting evidence that they yield any sonic differences as the late Peter Aczel told us repeatedly for decades.
It is a shame that you had to find out the truth about DACs for yourself. However it us reassuring that your ears were telling you the truth.
In My Experience, the components tend to make a difference in the following order: Speakers Preamp Amplifier Table, Arm, Cartridge Cables Dac...... I have found that once you get to a certain level in Dacs that there is not near as much difference as in any of the other components..... Maybe cables. Yes, there are differences in Dacs and differences in Cables, but there is a point where once the reach a certain level, the differences are minor or a matter of taste. Maybe the way to put it is..... There is less difference between 2 well designed Dacs at say $500 and $3000 or $4000 that there would be between a $500 Preamp, Amp or speakers vs that $3000 plus component.
I suspect if I remember right you were using an old Adcom DAC?... Maybe not, but I suspect that your Dac was of the level that the differences were not night and day. I have built 3 Dacs with 3 different Dac chips, they all perform admirably, they don't sound the same, but they are all very good performers.
This is all about experience, time, listening and talking to those who know, learning.
When I build a system I start with speakers first (because these are what we literally connect with) after that the amplifier (this is key for sound quality tubed or not, and ability to drive speakers properly) then a pre amp (possibly tubed or not depending on tone of sound desired) I save the best for last really...a great digital front end (DAC/music server/player) or a fantastic turntable/arm/cartridge with a topnotch phono stage. The source is of course super important as are cables that don’t color or add anything unwanted like darkness or brightness to the overall sound. Finally Ill add that the room your system is in means a hell of a lot...tiny system in BIG room = no fun and vise versa. Very important to get the system dialed in to the room so it feels like the room is alive! Hard to get right.
Thanks Ivan, great posts. The way I consider ’the weakest link’ as a bottleneck. All
the other bits could sound better, but the weakest link is holding the
rest back, since the bottleneck is at the peak of it’s performance. And
if it is replaced with a better bit of kit, the whole rest of the system
can move up, to what is the next block of the component which is doing
all it can, and then is the one holding back the other components,
which if given a chance, could sound better.
And to willemj Agree about speakers. Disagree about CD playback being superior to vinyl. I
do confess I have an expensive LP playback setup: Bought here on AgoN’
Kuzma Stabi/Stogi S with a Dynavector 17D3 to the also bought here: ARC
SP-15 phono. The closest I get to that using CD is a Sony SCD777ES. My
LP playback is definitely better. Though i do play CDs for ease of use.
(I typically use a eBay $40/$80 max 5 disc changer( (most changers
sound like doggie doo. I found a few models I can enjoy) to my DAC. The
sound is slightly less than the Sony SCD777ES playing CD, but good
enough for everyday use. ’(saving’ the Sony for as long as I can) If I
spent a bit on perhaps a yggdrasil my CD playback might improve? I would
never spend more than a few grand on a CD playback DAC.
I guess I don't have a methodology I go more on gut feeling and very good advice from my dealer at times. I agree with the above comment on synergy my components work very well together and I believe the sum is greater than the parts. Currently my upgrades, since my speaker purchase last year, are of the incremental type. A new power cable here, new tubes there, working on the margins. I do realize I've gotten, and many others get there too, to a point where any meaningful component upgrade would require an outsized outlay of capital.
For me, I insist on auditioning any component in my own system before I buy, whether from a dealer or an online retailer. This way you can make your own judgment what needs to be upgraded and then confirm candidates by actually listening to them.
I wouldn't go by Stereophile and TAS. They make their money from the industry side, not the readership.
Your point about it all being subjective is well taken.
But, IMO I think you may be conflating a "weak link" (still a subjective term) that can be tied to some distinct, negative aspect of sound or lack of performance, once it has been successfully eliminated, and those tweaks or general improvements to the overall sound that can be applied **without compromising the sound and performance in any way**. Two different things. In regards to the OP, one requires diagnosis, the other does not.
But yes, the impact of all that on total system performance, real or imagined, is something to keep in mind and, in general, I'd say that our expectations do typically grow along with our systems.
Weakest link is your own subjective confused expectations. Too many confused folks hearing radical change because they imagined so. If you suppose after significant investment that a system is excellent and truely high fidelity then a “radical improvement” from a tweak is totally inconsistent with the original assumption.
EITHER people are highly imaginative and influenced by their expectations more than anything else...
OR people have such a lousy crap system that “radical improvement” is still possible...
So what is it?
Do you have an excellent setup that can only be incrementally improved?
Or
Do you have a system where a contact goo applied to your fuse box made the earth move and the heavens open up and the angels sang?
Which kind of setup do you have or how much are you fooled by your own wild imaginings?
And you cannot have it both ways.
This is food for thought for those on the merry go round.
Even the most basic measurements show that speakers (and their in-room response) are indeed the weakest link in virtually any system. Like roberjerman I therefore use Quad electrostats (and some Harbeth P3ESRs in my study). Even relatively affordable electronics will drive them to perfection, as their creator proved ages ago. Similarly, and I have said and argued this many times before, even pretty affordable digital sources will sound way better than the most expensive vinyl rig. Again, a quick look at the measurement data tells the whole story. It is ironic that Philips who designed most of the CD technology, but who at the time were also among the very best in vinyl production technology, designed the new technology that wiped out their competitive technological advance. Pretty soon after they left what had become a commodity market.
Synergy is one of the most important factors. And replacing one piece at a time is one of the best way to tell differences. You never trully know how a piece will sound untill you hear it in your system. I usually have a long term plan and know what pieces I am not completely happy with. I work toward the end goal.
But at this point I am trully happy with my system. There is nothing that I really feel needs upgrading. My phono preamp was the last piece.
I believe I'm with you elizabeth, it can be figured out, but I confess I have no simplified or reliable method per se for doing so. For me although it does come down to experimenting with substitutions (or additions....or even subtractions of whatever gear, wiring or tweaks I can think to try, really), experience and just my best instinct are what I find I fall back on most. That's mostly trying to examine, as best I can, the actual nature of the type of audible noise or distortion I'm looking to remedy to see if that gives me the best suggestion of its possible cause and what component(s) may be involved.
For example, I already have some impression, by way of prior experience now, that there may be differences in sound between things like inferior connectors (whose constricted sound may be telling me it's time to either bypass or upgrade them), the overall whiteness or grayness of digital hash or noise or, say, sibilance issues that may be caused by a cart that is not quite properly aligned. Of course, the problem is that virtually any of these sounds may each well have more than one, possible, technical cause...or in fact many causes at the same time...and sometimes we can replace a component that fixes the problem without us ever being able to reach a reliable conclusion as to what it was about the component that was causing the problem.
But, listening to the nature of the sound of the problem is about my best bet toward identifying the source of the problem and I'm always aware that my first attempt may fail to impact the problem like I'd hoped, but that the process of elimination is still key. In the end however, I accept that eventually unearthing the real problem and finding a true solution for it is a certainty as an outcome and, in the face of the initial uncertainty, it just may demand both patience and persistence...but it all seems to go with the territory.
Want the biggest and best change for your system? Sure you do! BUY A BETTER PAIR OF SPEAKERS! They are the weak link and worst measuring of all components! Many speakers cannot even play back a simple pulse - yet are beloved and touted by the "golden ear" crowd! The ancient Quad ESL passes the impulse test with ease and sounds better than 99% of present day speakers!
""
it can frankly be impossible to tell"" I think there are ways to figure it out, just trying to find what folks think are the ways?
In fact I also think it is a great challenge to find the weakest link. Part of it is knowing what one really wants to have 'more of'..or 'less of'. Like less grain. or more clarity, greater dynamics, less treble harshness... greater warmth, less wooly bass ... etc.
I can see where if folks are unsure what they really want.. it would be impossible.
elizabeth I would say unless you have what would seem to be an obvious mismatch it can frankly be impossible to tell. In fact if the system is sounding good and you're really enjoying it, perhaps there is no "weak link" per se? The potential for improvement is surely almost always there but at what cost? Monetarily and aggravation and timewise. The good news is you obviously listen to your ears, to me that's the most important step.
""
If you evaluate and upgrade only one component at a time, you can avoid a lot of missteps."" That is true.
But how do you KNOW which component to upgrade? Are you guessing at which one is the worst sounding of the bunch? Perhaps you are dead certain which one is the worst? Choosing the cheapest/oldest one? Picking one you want to replace because you saw a shiny new 'better' one in a review? Perhaps because you have a long term plan and you just go on down the list as you can afford to upgrade the next item on the list? You happened by accident to see something for sale at a great price and decided 'Why not'? You have a BIG pile of money to burn and buy your dream components?
(I think in my 50 years as a person who owns stereo equipment.. I have used all of the above as reasons.) But what is YOUR methodology?
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