Glad to hear. Its supposed to be one of the best phono stages on the market and I've yet to hear someone who has complained about its performance. I've had my eye on his linestage and its just a matter of time before I yield...Congratulations.
First impression: Herron VTPH-2A phono preamp
I got my VTPH-2A this morning and it's up and running. After about five hours of spinning vinyl, I'm pretty sure I've wet myself, MULTIPLE TIMES! I've primarily played vinyl that I've had for decades, music that I thought I was intimately familiar with. I was wrong. There's nuance I never knew existed. Everything about the VTPH-2A is "right". The bass is tight, vocals superb, instruments have places, etc. All that I've listened to sounds new and fresh and the most masterfully recorded vinyl sounds live. What I've read about on this forum concerning the VTPH-2A (pretty much all stellar) is true. I've had five different phono preamps and nothing can compete with this, NOTHING. It's a bad ass and definitely a keeper.
74 responses Add your response
dweller, I have not heard the Chinook, although it's my understanding that it is quite good as well. My last two preamps were both solid state, the Parasound JC 3+ and Simaudio Moon Neo 310LP. The JC 3+ was new and returned after a few week audition. It was okay, but I couldn't live with it's noise. I went through the whole dog and pony act of isolation, changing cables, grounding, etc. to no avail. Parasound believed the unit had too much gain for my system and was willing to trim back the gain if I wanted to send it back to them. Great offer, but it was disturbing to think a new item would need factory alteration right out of the box. The 310LP is a gem in it's own right, just not complete enough. I digress. My advice would be to audition, if possible, whatever it is you are strongly considering. I was afraid with the VTPH-2A that I wouldn't be objective, that the power of suggestion in reviews would influence my thinking. All I can do is concur with what I've read, it is the most musically dynamic component in my system. The AT-ART9 cartridge I use sings with accuracy. The beryllium tweeters in my Focal speakers offer clarity to highs like never before. I can finally understand the definition of tight bass and vocals that are live. If you listen to the Chinook and can have that kind of experience with the music, you've hit the jackpot. If not, I'm sure that you'll find it with the Herron. |
professorsvsu rob67 has one of these Herron’s phono stages, and because it has nice low 400ohm output impedance for a tube and high (69db) of gain, he probably doesn’t need any more gain from an active preamp, so he’ll be trying it out with his new Lightspeed Attenuator (should be far lower noise this way) he should have it this weekend which will be driving into his Gryphon Antilleon Signature poweramp driving his Wilson Sasha’s, I’ll ask him to comment on the sound here for you once he’s had a good listen.. Cheers George |
georgehifi, I would be excited to read about how the Herron performs in a truly high end system. My system is almost a starter kit in comparison. I'm glad that you brought up the Lightspeed. I have a Goldpoint floating around that I haven't used in years and I may experiment with that as well when I have free time. |
Yes do try it, because with all that gain the Herron has, you may as well use it all and not have more noise from active pre’s that you’d have to turn right down to throw away the gain of the Herron. Do you know what the impedance of your Goldpoint is?? ( 5K, 10K, 25K, 50K, 100K, and 250K.) hopefully it’s the 10k one as this will suit nearly all situations, as this is important to get a good impedance with your amps input impedance if you know that too? I believe you have the Bryston 4B cube which is 33kohm rca that’s fine if the Goldpoint is the 10k one. Cheers George |
georgehifi, Before I start rewiring my system, I'll probably set the gain as low as it will go on my preamp (Parasound JC 2 BP) and kick the gain up on my 4B Cubed. A fun adventure for tomorrow. As far as the Goldpoint is concerned, I haven't used it in about six years and really don't remember the impedance. I'm sure I have literature on it somewhere or it's tagged on the unit. Just finished listening to some old Starship, Knee Deep In The Hoopla. I'll bet I listened to the song Sara six times. The VTPH-2A is something really special. I've gotta know what rob67 thinks of the unit in his system. I wouldn't be surprised if it puts a grin on his face from ear to ear. |
Yeah I saw that with the 4B cube it has two switchable gain settings. Here’s something you may like to know, "if" this gain changing is done where most are done, the same way I used to do my tube or solid state amps I built, via changing the nfb (negative feedback ratio). Then you may like to know that a higher gain setting is a lower feedback ratio, which "can" give the 4b a slightly more tube sound with a little less damping factor and maybe more 2hd. Cheers George |
Prof--glad you like! One of those rare products in high end that exceeds the hype and yet somehow flies below most people's radar. What you get: SQ approaching the limits of what is possible yet a relative bargain compared with most ultra-high-end stages AND what is arguably finest customer support extent. Have fun! |
Professorsvsu, congratulations and continue to enjoy! I know you will, being one of several other members here using the VTPH2 or 2A/ART-9 combo. Regarding passive preamps, the Herron phono stage is not suitable for driving a low impedance passive preamp. One reason being that its nominally 400 ohm output impedance undoubtedly rises to much higher values at deep bass frequencies, due to the use of a coupling capacitor at its output. (Also, btw, the configuration providing a 400 ohm output impedance provides 64 db of gain, not 69 db as was stated above. And I assume you have the 64 db version, which is what I and most VTPH owners have purchased). From the manuals for the VTPH-2 and 2A: We recommend that the VTPH-2A be used with a line stage having an input impedance of 50,000 ohms or higher for optimum performance. And a direct quote of a response Keith Herron provided just yesterday to a member who asked him if the VTPH-2A could be used with a 20K load impedance (see this thread): "We have VTPH-2A customers that are using preamplifiers with 20k Ohms RCA single ended input impedances that are pleased with the sound. Also, I suspect that the degree to which those driving 20K with the VTPH-2A are "pleased with the sound" depends on how much deep bass extension their speakers provide, since one of the major consequences of this kind of impedance issue is deep bass rolloff. Best regards, -- Al |
@dweller -- a while back there was a thread on the Chinook, and I distinctly remember more than one responder saying the Allnic H1201 and Herron VTPH (sorry, can't remember version) were significantly preferred in comparison. Not surprisingly, there was praise for the Steelhead although obviously at a higher price point. Just dusting off some synapses here and sorry for the sidetrack, but hope it helps. |
| Post removed |
almarg I can see where your coming from Al, the 400ohm is fine, as you say if the output coupling cap is too small there would be some rolling off the bass too early with a 10kohm passive. I just did some calculations and if that coupling cap is 1uf or more all is fine. Do you know how big it is maybe you have one? I have sent an email and asked Keith I will post it up when he reply's. And if it is less than 1uf there's no trouble or much cost making it bigger, and at the same time a better quality one. And the gain can be either: From Herron Gain MC Mode (2 X 12AX7, 3 X 12AT7) 64 dB (4 X 12AX7, 1 X 12AT7) 69 dB Cheers George |
Hi George, No, I don't know what the value of the coupling cap is, as I've never had occasion to open my unit. One reason being that I've never felt tempted to do any tube-rolling with it, and in the process perhaps messing up the voicing Keith has achieved. But in addition to what I mentioned earlier, that the manual recommends 50K or more as being optimal as well as Keith's statement that he would not recommend less than 20K, a few months ago he explicitly recommended to another member that the VTPH-2A not be used in conjunction with a 10K load, stating as follows (quoted by member Uberwaltz in a post dated 4-2-2018 in this thread): Hi Kevin, Best regards, -- Al |
Keith just emailed me, here’s what he said. "Hi George, As you can see no problems with bass rolloff as the cap is 7uf and he’s done the measurements flat to 10hz, into the same load as a 10kohm passive represents! My calculations with 7uf into 10kohm load are -3db at 2hz, perfect! All looks fine to me for it to be used with a passive preamp, as the gain is very high for this phono stage, so you may as well utilise it all, instead of knocking it back because of the gain in an active preamp, this way you’ll get a definite lower background noise level. Also Keith said the Distortion: Less than 0.03% at 2.45 volts RMS output at 1kHz at 20k Ohm, this also "to me" bodes well for passive preamp use. If you’ve got’em smoke em! to see how it sounds. We’ll see after this weekend what rob67 thinks of it with the Lightspeed as it mimics a 10kohm passive volume control. I’ve got other customers of mine with tube phono’s that aren’t spec’d as good as this for passive use, they say it’s the best they’ve heard their vinyl sound, once they got rid of the active preamp. Cheers George |
Wow! So bass rolloff would not be an issue that would result from driving low impedances such as 10K, with Keith’s design. But I would still take to heart his comments recommending against anything less than 20K. And his suggestions that for other reasons 40K or more is preferable with the 64 db configuration (400 ohms nominal output impedance), and 50K or more is preferable with the 69 db configuration (500 ohms nominal output impedance). Regarding the 2.45 volt figure, while he has conservatively chosen that number for use in specifying distortion, keep in mind that a gain of 64 db will raise the output of a cartridge rated at 0.5 mv under the standard test conditions (that being the rating of the AT-ART9 which I and the OP and some others here use in conjunction with what I presume in all or nearly all cases is the 64 db version of the VTPH2 or 2A) to only 0.792 volts under the standard test conditions. Not nearly enough to drive many power amps to full power, even with the volume control of a passive preamp at max. Although very high volume transients on some recordings can exceed the standard test conditions severalfold, as I understand it. In any event, thanks for obtaining the good info about the cap. Best regards, -- Al |
You’ve got the option of 69db of gain Al also have a look at the on line manual/specs. Also with average gain of amps at around 27db and speakers that are average around 88db you certainly will have enough volume range Maybe not with low gain amps as the NP Aleph’s and such, and low efficiency speakers such around 82db. As for the 2.5v output figure into 20kohm at 0.03% distortion this is far less than what a cartridge has as a distortion, they are closer to 1% so to me that doesn’t mean much. Well see what rob67 has to report re gain, as his Gryphon Antillion amp is around average at 1v sens and his Wilson Sasha speakers are around average at 90db As I said I have customers with tube phono stages that have lower gain around 48db and 1kohm output impedance they don’t have any issue with not enough volume. I make it a point of asking where the volume control is for normal/loud listening, and they say around 2pm which gives them plenty of range up or down. Many of my vinyl junkie customers are here on these forums, hopefully they will respond as I can’t remember who has what, as there are over 900 out there. Cheers George |
As for the 2.5v output figure into 20kohm at 0.03% distortion this is far less than what a cartridge has as a distortion, they are closer to 1% so to me that doesn’t mean much. Hi George, To be sure it’s clear, the point I was making had absolutely nothing to do with the distortion percentage. I was making the point that the 2.45 volt figure has no relation to how much voltage the phono stage puts out in normal use. It just relates to how much voltage it is **capable** of putting out, without exceeding the distortion spec. And the 64 db version of the phono stage, which is what most people choose and which is what Keith recommends as being the best version to use with LOMC cartridges that do not have unusually low outputs, will produce an output far less than 2.45 volts under most circumstances. In fact well under 1 volt under most circumstances. Which in turn will be too little to drive many and probably most power amps to full power, even with the volume control at max, unless the preamp provides additional gain. As I said I have customers with tube phono stages that have lower gain around 48db and 1kohm output impedance they don’t have any issue with not enough volume. I make it a point of asking where the volume control is for normal/loud listening, and they say around 2pm which gives them plenty of range up or down. Surely that is with moving magnet or other high output cartridges, not with LOMCs! Speaking more generally, given the credibility Keith has earned over the years as a result of his universally praised design work and sincere dedication to customer support, if he says that 20K is a bare minimum and 40K or more is preferable, that’s good enough for me. Best regards, -- Al |
if he says that 20K is a bare minimum He’s quoting, like me saying 47k and 100k is even better is the figure for the Lightspeed to see, when in fact 25kohm is the min correct figure as measured and listened too by our 50 strong audio group, as that gives a 1:10 ratio as the max output impedance of a 10k volume control is 2.5k, were just taking in any unforeseen circumstances like weird cables etc. We’ll see when Rob67 reports on what he heard, as for now as I said before lesser phono stages are sounding great into this kind of load. Al do your ears a favour, ditch the dinosaur if you have the gain, and "not" listen to the noise floor of your preamps output gain stage, you’ll be amazed just how black the background of vinyl can sound if you utilise all the phono stage’s gain instead. He’s given you massive 64db or 69db of gain, use it, some poor saps only get 35db of gain with their phono stages and they have to listen to the preamps output gain stage’s noise. Cheers George |
He’s given you massive 64db or 69db of gain, use it, some poor saps only get 35db of gain with their phono stages and they have to listen to the preamps output gain stage’s noise. Hi George, I’m not sure you’re realizing that the 64 or 69 db of gain is just for use with low output cartridges, primarily low output moving coil cartridges. Moving magnet or high output moving coil or high output moving iron cartridges are connected to a different input of the phono stage, which provides either 43 or 48 db of gain depending on the version of the phono stage. 64 db of gain is not "massive," it is an amount that is appropriate for the majority of low output moving coil cartridges. While 35 or 43 or 48 db are reasonable figures for use with most high output cartridges. Using 64 db of gain with a moving magnet cartridge would most likely result in an overload condition. Best regards, -- Al |
Al, like I said before some of my customers with MC and 48db phono stages are having no problem, around 2pm on the VC, but then they have "normal" gain poweramps and speakers that are efficient. If you run one of say Nelson’s low gain F series amps or similar then yes I agree there could be gain issues, lets wait and see what Rob67 has to report he has a MC that is a $10kusd Lyra, and his amp and speakers are in the "normal" rage of things. BTW: For normal listening levels in your setup where is your vc positioned on your active pre and do you know it’s gain? Does it have a log pot? And what is the gain of your amp and efficiency of your speakers? Cheers George |
Thanks celander, I'm enjoying it immensely. I'm only two days into the VTPH-2A experience and 100% sold out on the product. I'm 64 and have to admit that some of the vinyl I've listened to the past few days has made me as giddy as a kid. At least 50 years of listening to vinyl and I've never heard anything this good. I had a few brief e-mails with Keith Herron since I purchased the preamp. In complete honesty and at the risk of sounding hokey, I believe he's invested part of his soul into what he's doing and it shows. I wish his company a large measure of success and have no reservations so far giving the VTPH-2A a five star, A+ rating. |
For normal listening levels in your setup where is your vc positioned on your active pre and do you know it’s gain? Does it have a log pot? And what is the gain of your amp and efficiency of your speakers? Hi George, My speakers are Daedalus Ulysses, which are rated at a high 97.5 db/1 watt/1 meter, and have a 6 ohm nominal impedance. I don’t know what the gain is of my VAC Renaissance 70/70 MkIII amplifier, but it is certainly not low, especially for the zero feedback setting of its feedback select switch, which is the setting I use. For my preamp I used a DEQX HDP-5, which as you may be aware is produced by some of your fellow countrymen Down Under, and provides numerous DSP-based functions including improving speaker time coherence and room correction. To make that possible analog inputs are converted to digital, but the unit is renowned for its transparency and I have high confidence that it does not manifest any audible bit-stripping at any of the volume control settings I use for either CD or LP playback. I say that based on my own tests with both the speakers and Stax electrostatic headphones, as well as on numerous testimonials to the transparency of DEQX units by experienced audiophiles that are stated in the long running thread here entitled "Is DEQX A Game Changer." It provides 50K input impedance, and at its factory default settings I use I believe its gain is small, just about 1.5 db from unbalanced analog input to unbalanced analog output. The volume control characteristic is described as follows: Each button press increments or decrements in 1dB steps from 0dB to above -24dB, then in 2dB steps above -36dB, then in 3dB steps above - 48dB, then in 6dB steps down to -120dB. Much of my listening is to classical recordings having wide dynamic range, and for those I commonly have the volume control set in the area of approximately -20 to -26 db or so, when listening to LPs. Those who listen to dynamically compressed pop and rock recordings would presumably use lower settings in most cases. Again, I am using the 64 db version of the VTPH-2 and a 0.5 mv cartridge. Best regards, -- Al |
Just to add a liitle bit to the thread. I`m using the Herron VTPH 1 MC plus phono stage along with my Tortuga preamp set at 99K and I`m also using a tube based buffer with it . After nearly two years of using the Herron just as Keith sent it, I recently took out 2 of the Sovteks and put 2 Shuguang 12AX7B`s in. My phono cartridge is lowish on the output @ .24 mv and so far the system has everything I need. Has great bass, a lot of airy detail and the amps seem to be just cruising along with little effort ! I had Georges preamp prior and I really enjoyed it and would have kept it in the system but I liked the idea of having a remote and the adjustable impedance feature of the Tortuga Audio. |
@professorsvsu. Did you send it into the factory to have it checked out and updated if needed? I did that with several companies where the products had multiple owners. (I couldn’t recall your purchase history of this one.). I sent gear back to Audible Illusions, Conrad-Johnson, Juicy Music, dB Audio Systems and others for updates and checkout. Always a great experience in doing so. |
scm So you had enough volume with the passive even though you had a very low 0.24mV MC cartiridge, you didn't have >100db horn speakers? also what was your amps gain or sensitivity? And the VP1 is the same gain and even higher output impedance. Cheers George |
For my preamp I used a DEQX HDP-5, which as you may be aware is produced by some of your fellow countrymen Down Under, and provides numerous DSP-based functions including improving speaker time coherence and room correction. To make that possible analog inputs are converted to digital Yes I know Kim and Al very well, they are 200mts down the road from me in Brookvale. So Al now I know it's not possible for you to go passive with the Herron, as you use the Deqx as the pre, your converting your vinyl to digital then doing room/speaker digital eq'ing and xover'ing to it, then bringing it back to analogue domain again. Cheers George |
Yes I know Kim and Al very well, they are 200mts down the road from me in Brookvale.Awesome! It's a small world, as the saying goes. I've spoken with Al (Alan Langford) at length on the phone on one occasion, and communicated via email on several other occasions. He's always been very helpful, and a pleasure to deal with. Professorsvsu, apologies for the digression. Best regards, -- Al |
Awesome! It’s a small world, as the saying goes.Yeah, I don’t know if you know this but Kim (who owns Deqx) was the co/inventor of the first Fairlight Synthesizer back in 1979. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOlPCpSmhRM Here's a pic of a young Kim Ryrie https://www.mixonline.com/.image/t_share/MTUxNDIwMTI5OTI3MTc3NDQ2/509techof11gif.gif Cheers George |
@georgehifi So you had enough volume with the passive even though you had a very low 0.24mV MC cartiridge, you didn’t have >100db horn speakers? also what was your amps gain or sensitivity? And the VP1 is the same gain and even higher output impedance. George..I have a lot of volume on tap as it sits. My speakers are not all that efficient @ 87.5 db or something like that, they are Revel F52. I had everything spec wise when I was looking for a buffer but I may have tossed them. The amp is an ATI 3002 |
scmThanks for that info. There you go Al, even with .24mV MC and 87db speakers plenty of volume on tap. And the ATI amp seems to be 1.8v sensitivity. Your calculations have a hicup somewhere. Cheers George |
@georgehifi What really seemed to help was adding the tube buffer. The volume level on the numeric display was usually maxed out at about 54-56 by..."maxed out" I mean what I felt was loud enough. Now though the display shows 40-42 for the same level. I think I can flex the walls if I wanted to, there seems to be a lot of pedal left :) |
Thank you, Professor. George, there are no hiccups in my calculations. Note that I referred to not being able to drive the power amp to full power, in some and perhaps many circumstances. I did not say that users in those circumstances would necessarily be unable to achieve a volume level that is satisfactory to them. A quick search I did for specs on the ATI 3002 seemed to turn up specs on the ATI 3000 instead. But presuming the specs for the two model numbers are the same the 1.8 volt sensitivity spec you cited is correct, and the gain of the amp from its unbalanced input is 34 db, which is probably about 8 db higher than average for a power amp. The gain provided by the LOMC input of SCM’s VTPH-1MC+ is 66 db. That corresponds to a voltage multiplication of 1995x. That would raise a 0.24 mv cartridge output to 1995 x 0.24 = 479 mv, far less than the 1.8 volts that is necessary to drive the amp to its maximum power capability. To be precise, about 11.5 db less than what is necessary, which means that his amp that is rated at 300 watts into 8 ohms would only be putting out about 21 watts into 8 ohms when the cartridge is providing its rated output and the passive preamp’s volume control is set at max! But let’s assume that high volume dynamic peaks of some recordings may cause the cartridge output to be in the area of 3x the rating, corresponding to about 10 db more than the cartridge’s output under the standard test conditions. Those peaks would result in an output from the phono stage of 479 mv x 3 = 1.44 volts, which would still be significantly less than what is required to drive the amp to full power. And, again, the power amp would only see voltages as high as those numbers when the volume control of the passive preamp is at max!! IMO, in most circumstances if the front end of a system cannot drive a power amp to full power the system has not been configured in an optimal manner. Best regards, -- Al |
@
professorsvsu
You`re a good sport ! Thanks for that, but if I may, I`d like to add this too: I actually had to run a splitter off the back of the tube buffer because it only has one output. So, one goes to my subwoofer amp and the other goes to the main amp. It may be wrong technically (I don`t know) but it seems to work. |
IMO, in most circumstances if the front end of a system cannot drive a power amp to full power the system has not been configured in an optimal manner.I hope you don’t mean it’s going to be more "dynamic" if it’s plenty loud enough for the user, but can’t clip the amplifier in theoretical terms, as some shonk’s here on Audiogon have tried to make out Cheers George |
I actually had to run a splitter off the back of the tube buffer because it only has one output. Whether or not that would have a sonic downside would depend on the output impedance of the buffer, the input impedance of the sub, and the input impedance of the main amp. And if either or both pairs of cables that are involved are especially long it may also depend on the the length and the capacitance per unit length of the particular cables. These things can all be calculated if the relevant parameters are known. Best regards, -- Al |
I hope you don’t mean it’s going to be more dynamic if it’s plenty loud enough, but can’t clip the amplifier in theoretical terms, as some shonks here have tried to make out What I primarily mean is that the user will have paid for amplifier power that cannot be utilized. And it would have been better to direct the $ that went toward watts that can’t be utilized toward something else in the system. Perhaps toward a lower powered but higher quality amplifier, if the lower power capability is in fact adequate. Best regards, -- Al |
Hey, I have three times as much wattage than I need, I don’t use it. 99.9% of use don’t use our full wattage potential that we have on tap, idiots that do will need speaker repairs very quickly. So loud enough is loud enough, and there’s no penalty if you can’t clip your amp with the given signal, so long as you can reach the level you need, having the ability to go up to 11 doesn’t give you any sound quality advantage at all. Cheers George |
What improvement is the VTPH-2A vs the VTPH-2? I don’t think there’s much from what I saw of the specs, the 2A is 100ohms lower in output impedance, (400 instead of 500), the rest seemed the same. 2: http://www.herronaudio.com/images/vtph2data.pdf 2A http://www.herronaudio.com/vtph2specs.html at the bottom Yep, 8db lower noise on the 2A Cheers George |
Regarding the 8 db spec difference in S/N ratio between the VTPH-2 and VTPH-2A that George pointed out, I can say that one thing which has particularly amazed me about my VTPH-2 is how quiet it is. In fact when I listen with my Stax electrostatic headphones and no music is playing I hear absolutely nothing even with the volume control on the Stax amplifier at max (which is **way** higher than I would ever set it while listening to music). (With speakers I do hear some slight noise at high volume settings if I get close to the speakers, but that is clearly being introduced elsewhere in the system). I see that the 80 db spec for the VTPH-2 is accompanied by the words "noise level will be tube dependent." Perhaps the 88 db spec for the 2A simply reflects a change Keith made in his choice of tube manufacturer at some point in the evolution of the design, and/or a change in the criteria he applies in the tests I assume he performs to weed out noisy tubes. Best regards, -- Al |
I`ve been wondering lately if there would be an improvement going to the VTPH-2 from my VTPH-1 MC Plus. On the surface it doesn`t seem to be cost effective for me because I don`t see myself going back to MM cartridges. Why pay for features that I`ll not be using !? Has anybody here compared the two versions using the same MC cartridge ? |
