I had a friend buy a new pair of the old Machs he still is using. But now is running off a cheap tube amp and I helped with network and woofer surrounds and they sound pretty darn good. But do agree that many might have heard cheap horns and just lump that all in and form a opinion. I also feel that many audiophiles have been sold on small profitable speaker systems and since most all have these that means that is the best way that they have somehow achieved a consensus. Also that a misunderstanding exists that many assume horns do not image because some horns radiation patterns are designed for even response off and on axis while audiophile systems mostly aim at even response on axis thus the solo audiophile sitting centered. Horns can be optimized for both uses and have been for decades much music audiophiles cherish was mastered on Altec RCA TAD etc.
Horn based loudspeakers why the controversy?
As just another way to build a loudspeaker system why such disputes in forums when horns are mentioned? They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own. So why such hate? As a loudspeaker designer I work with and can appreciate all transducer and loudspeaker types and I understand that we all have different needs budgets experiences tastes biases. But if you dare suggest horns so many have a problem with that suggestion..why?
Showing 50 responses by johnk
Altec had a few versions of a7 one for PA one for theater the theater model is a good bit better sounding and the one most Altec a7 user have today. Consider that a PA sound is highly variable many different things contribute greatly to its overall sound so maybe the band the amps the room the mic singer or the one who set it all up was what you recall as terrible sounding and not the A7 |
Kosst- Altec -a7 a5, Klipsch- Lascala Belle Khorn all run well off class A SS all are under 5k pair- fully horn loaded systems get large and thus costly. Also since you only know me from a few posts in this forum you are not aware that I design loudspeakers and many that I have sold are non horn loaded designs. You also seem to form wrong conclusions based on having limited experience with horn based loudspeaker systems so I can understand why you find loudspeaker discussions complicated and frustrating. And I do feel I have the right to suggest horn loaded options in any forum at anytime I dont see why that is such a issue for you? And why do you insist others agree with you? Sorry but I haven't read much of what you post and what I have I haven't seen anything to agree with. |
Kosst you said{
It's no mystery to me at all why you NEVER see horn loaded bass guitar rigs} http://philjonesbass.com/product/16-h-bass-horn-speaker/ |
{ the interest in horn material damping somehow appears MIA} Maybe a few costly german horns are not addressing it but most all others do. GOTO goes all out in doing so and many other horns do not need much due to material choices. You also see a good num going with massive wood bells to reduce coloration. Those not addressing are doing so for mostly cosmetic reasons or they feel that it somehow kills the magic. |
kosst reads about how things sound not listens. And adds so much unsupported BS like this gem [
Horns have problems that aren't cheap to fix] no list of problems no hands on experience with said problems. I say kosst why even comment on horns when your experience levels zero and your bias towards what you own is 100%? And why do you think a corner is a bad place in a room to house a speaker designed for it and about a meter or more out is somehow more room friendly? And since you have no hands on why should I value your other bold proclamation of no klipsch being high end. Come out from under the bridge. |
Horns can image as good as any other design its not a limitation of horns. But some are designed for even coverage off axis this may yield a slight reduction in image if used in a home set up but have a more even off axis response than audiophile systems tend to. In other words if your not a seated centered listener these type of horns will sound better and more real than audiophile loudspeakers. Horns can also be optimized for seated center listening even in near-field I have all 3 types in my systems at home. My near field system is a pair of community leviathans I sit about 7 feet from them in my office system. They could produce concert level SPL with ease but I love how great they sound at low levels in near field. And yes they are big but when put in corner near wall they take up same amount of usable SQFT as my fostex towers did since they required the usual audiophile placements. Also the horn just sound so much better http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/y2015/06/134978/027.jpg |
Kosst
BSC made simple (and why it may be important to you)
http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=42 |
A few off the top off my head that offer horn systems at all price ranges. Cogent, GPA, Volti, CAR, BDesigns,Azura, AudioKinesis,Avantgarde,Klipsch,Autotech,GOTO, OceanWay,Acapella,VIVA,OMA,Tune Audio,JBL,Simon Mears,Vitavox,Living Voice,Vienna Physix,Cerwin Vega,Fostex,Cessaro,Zingali,Magico,Tannoy,Opera lots of others many pro models that can be used in home systems like Danleys. A good num of custom builders. Still many into horns DIY or mod vintage. On ebay and craigslist many old PA and vintage horns about for extremely low prices that with a few mods can near equal the costly horns. As far as audioshops not stocking horn models I find it difficult to find shops that cater to tubes let alone specialty audio like a horn. And while I love my local shop they just end up ordering what I want from the PC as we chat. What most stock is safe bet sales generic major name brand audio and I cant blame them with today's online markets. |
With such interest and many major manufacturers starting to offer horns or wave guide loudspeakers its been my experience that horn systems for audiophile use are on the increase. Despite the obstacles to horn ownership. I see more interest in forums more offerings more options I see reviewers and industry folks running horns systems. |
A thread on horns draws those interested in horns so overall more positive things would be said about horns. At the same time it also draws those who are opposed to horns in such a way that they follow any threads on horns posting negative. And that is fine but if all that you get out of these threads is a inability to understand why some have enthusiasm about horns and not even noticing that many including me in the thread orignal ?{ They can solve many issues that plague standard designs but with all things have there own } but with all things have there own would mean horns also have issues so why all the fuss? Why keep insisting that those who enjoy horns never say anything negative when its in the title thread post? |
|
|
Listening as a primary activity is rare indeed sometimes I trick people into doing so I turn on the big shearer horns sit them in best spot and say be back in a few mins. More than one who think the hobby crazy has understood why I pursue after but not one has changed how they listen just they sort of understand why I do. |
Yes horn people have a over all general consensus those who have experienced much know whats good or bad in horns and how to use them. But you still have the pro-audio gents who look at vintage as crazy you have the klipsch crowd and those who only pursue the most modern but over all if you have enough experience in horns we tend to agree whats good and not. Many horns are modular so a experienced user can combine these modules together to reach a end goal this also allows for user upgrades far more than conventional designs do and I think this hands on and ease of upgrades and optimization is appealing to some. |
Why I use a massive community leviathan with 4 altec 515b and massive multicell with tad in my office system is how wonderful horns can sound at low levels as well as high with very low listener fatigue I use them all day long. A big horn sounds full and real even at low levels I have not found any dynamic that is even close and I get to use some of the best with the most modern transducers. With conventional dynamics I have to play louder to get a full sound and after a hour or so fatigue sets in. |
Many assume horns are good for high SPL use only many assume they all need massive amount of SQFT to house and get integration many assume all horns are plagued with coloration or have no ability to image, or that horns for audio use are rare costly hard to source and not being produced in large nums but if you read reply's from owners and other audiophiles you can see most all of the passed about as facts on horns are wrong. |
With all loudspeaker designs you compromise. Perfection does not exist in anything so since nothings perfect,designers take these imperfect parts and make a imperfect loudspeaker. We set it up in a imperfect room play imperfect music from a imperfect source and we use our imperfect mind and ears to sort it all out. I do think people assume perfection is possible and are in a bit of denial about how crude it all really is. I find imperfection to be comforting since it allows choice learning and variation. So embrace the imperfections in your system work to get synergy make compromises that work best for you. If horns are not your thing good that hopefully means you found your thing if still searching consider giving horns a try set up a system with craigslist cast off if you hear + maybe pursue if not you can sell and get cash back plus you learned something and that cant be bad right? |
Soundsreal if you change your you to I then I agree that is how you feel about horns and maybe you have a love hate thing going on. While I have owned a few horn systems that maybe were not the best for long term use. I tend to think a good amount about what I buy and since I have had so much hands on I know what works for me and how to get the best out of it once installed into a system. I tend to use loudspeakers that work best for the system synergy goal I have in mind and many times they are horns but not always. A horn is a tool and is just part of a total system. |
Speaker looks like a Carfrae big horn http://img.ukaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1337456-carfrae-big-horn-speakers.jpg |
Worked with a good num of BLH designs. I mostly prefer front loaded horn systems over hybrids and BLH. But one can build a great sounding loudspeaker using BLH etc I just prefer full front horn loading and that can get large not all want, can afford or house such things. In my office system I can not fit a massive sub bass horn but do have pair of community leviathans front loaded to 70hz and I run a massive sealed bass system with it as a compromise that I can live with and greatly enjoy. In my bedroom I have a small pair of fostex BLH I place near ears for late night use. Still running 2 pairs of RCA shearer horns in main systems one using my massive sub bass horn and have one of my favorites in garage system waiting warmth a giant pair RCA front horns from late 1920s with modern drivers currently installed. Much of the rest is in storage or not in use and its to much to go into. |
Kosst{
Since the horn market is a distinct minority in the larger hi-fi market} Already proved this wrong JBL klipsch are still market leaders in sales. {I'm clearly not the only one who doesn't like them} that would be true- but this statement {
MOST people don't like them} A logic error how do you know this to be true? Just because you dont like something doesn't mean most do not this may be why you get grief in forums maybe consider logic in next argument and not personal feeling biases or absolutes. Also you seem to favor focal products but do know focal claims horn loading of tweeters back-waves. |
Kosst {Are you trying to tell me the hideous, honky, plastic horns JBL and Klipsch sell at Best Buy are great examples of horns and proof that horns are widely desired?} No that is all in your mind {
I love to bring over people who own that Best Buy JBL and Klipsch crap and park them in front of my 936’s. It always leaves them lusting.} I highly doubt you ever have or ever will do that{
You seem to be under the impression that the general public is well aware of $10,000 speakers and is discriminating in their tastes} No I am not. Kosst many logic errors personal biases and down right BS in what you post good luck with that. |
Kosst -Not one of my local dealers stock focal
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them No dealers selling tube gear in my area
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them never found a Ferrari at a dealer
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them. Never found a bigfoot at my local audio dealer no mater how hard I looked
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them. Rise above Dunning Kruger. |
Kosst {I think their general behavior and theory is fundamentally flawed} in what ways are horns fundamentally flawed? you can think this all you want but its just a bias unless you have facts to support this bold claim. Kosst{
Logic suggests if I can't find them, nobody is trying to sell them because nobody wants to buy them} again non sequitur a logic failing And this gem-Kosst{
And yeah, I'm absolutely biased against them }
Bias is prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. You invalidate your arguments with non sequitur and self admitted bias. |
What is a directional loudspeaker? A conventional loudspeaker is designed to spread sound over a fairly wide area: it has a paper or plastic cone that moves back and forth, pumping sound in a wide arc in front of it. The more energy you feed into a speaker (in the form of electric current), the more energy it can pump out as sound, the further the sound waves can travel, and the louder they seem to be. Giant speakers used at rock festivals produce so much energy that they can be heard over a huge area, whether you want to hear them or not. Most of the time this is exactly how we want speakers to behave, but there are times when it would be helpful if they could work more selectively. Suppose you're the captain of a giant, fast-moving warship and you see a tiny fishing boat moored just up ahead and locked firmly in your path. If it doesn't respond to radio contact, you have a problem. You could use a megaphone to try to call out, but that's just a basic loudspeaker, really, and the sound it makes will probably not reach far enough. Wouldn't it be neat if you could send out a very focused "shout," in a tight beam of sound, that would travel all the way to the fishing boat to catch its attention, even from a huge distance away? This is essentially what a directional loudspeaker does: it's a kind of "sound flashlight" that can "shine" sound energy into a precise spot, even from some distance away. |
Your confusing directional loudspeakers with horn designs and they are not the same thus why you are confused a directional loudspeaker is kind of "sound flashlight" that can "shine" sound energy into a precise spot, even from some distance away great for a LRAD blasting a pulsing irritating tone at pirates it is not a loudspeaker for home audio use so yes no one would want a LRAD or directional loudspeaker for home use. The issue here is you do not comprehend the basics of how loudspeakers function or any definition or classifications of different design you lump all as one without realizing loudspeakers exist for other uses besides audio reproduction. Do not expect anymore reply's. |
phusis-{
In essence: the controversy surrounding "horns," as I see it, has more to do with misinformation, confusion of definition, convenience and habitual bias than any actual assessment of a pair of true horn speakers} I agree -I would also add that disinformation on horns is also put out by audio dealers and manufacturers to shill products and self promote own designs. |
Would agree horns match best with horns making a hybrid system is a compromise. Full horn loaded systems are rare mostly due to size and since rare not many experience them. I have people fly in from many parts of the earth to hear mine. I have built owned so many horn systems over the years and at this time have 3 all front loaded horn systems running many are stored- one uses a 20ft long 900lb front bass horn- one just a giant RCA front horn -also using pair of RCA Shearer horns and a pair of community leviathans with 515 and TAD mid all systems use combinations of vintage and modern though I can and have run many stock to get a idea what they were originally capable of. Since much of front horning is done by DIY types I have heard greatness but also ignorance in some set ups. But even those who bumble are learning and knowledge is well worth pursing. I do know that today hands on is kind of shunned most today just want to drop in local shop or open amazon and get instant gratification. So I never expect front horns to become popular but they sure can perform and I do think that some will always be after this performance aspect since most other designs do not equal it or do not supply it due to size and cost constants. The market demands small similar designs and that is what buyers get. The market does not demand giant horn systems but that doesn't negate what these types of design are capable of. Today if one wants better than average one must seek it out and that takes a bit of effort that today most do not care to do. |
larryi practical isn't what audiophiles or audiophiles system are about. Many front horns can be placed near wall or corners so take up less usable room sqft than standard audiophile fare of monitors on stands pulled out into room. My giant community leviathans use up the same space as my slim fostex towers did. Many OB designs would require more usable room sqft than front horns since it requires distance from rear wall and proper baffle size to produce useful low frequency most greatly undersized and under-build OB designs and look at it as a quick easy fix when in reality they are anything but. A OB needs to be greatly overbuilt or they become sound boards much energy wraps around baffle edges you can easily feel it when music is played. Also drivers in OB designs rock baffles with cone movements most OB I see do not address this and many place tweeters and mid on such unstable baffles. Not saying OB or hybrids are not viable or that one can not get good sound out of its just sub-optimal when used with horns. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrxwudn7C4w&t=2327s Siegfried Linkwitz is complaining about conventional designs and he even is holding up a model of a conventional ported monitor complaining about its design one would have to be daft to think he is ripping on horn tech I would suggest if he gives this link so much regard he should buy one of his madisound kits. phusis said earlier {In essence: the controversy surrounding "horns," as I see it, has more to do with misinformation, confusion of definition, convenience and habitual bias than any actual assessment of a pair of true horn speakers} if the shoe fits. |
Ran a few JK 45 SETs nice amps I also had a AG Duo 2.2 and had issues with bass integration so moved on to fully horn loaded systems.. Audio play back has so many variables and to me that is great it allows many options. I would say that horns can be used in smaller rooms if designed and or set up properly for such use. I have done so for decades and have giant room and smaller room horn systems. |
I design loudspeakers not just horns. I also collect restore manufacturer loudspeakers not just horn based. I do have a nice pair of Dynaudios I pulled out of my loudspeaker collection and just finished listening to for a few days in my main system. They have strengths one is imaging but imaging is thin airy on my horn systems image seems more solid and real but with a wee bit less detail. The Dynaudios emphasize issues on recordings and are very selective at what sounds great on them the horns just churn out near real sounding music no matter what genre emphasizing the humanity and soul of music. Still the Dynaudios are about 1-75th the weight of my main horns and that they are enjoyable at all and at that size is a bit amazing.Why I keep them. I have owned heard designed many dynamics and Dynaudio drivers are not as fatiguing as lesser types but after horns they do sound more like a music box less like a orchestra. |
I enjoy all types of loudspeaker all have uses all one can make synergistic systems out of. Horns have strengths weakness like all things to ignore strengths and only focus on weak points is self defeating with a system made of multiple devices playing towards strengths is the best way to get synergy. The more you know about audio the better your system will be those hating on horn loudspeakers without really experiencing maybe missing out on one of the worlds greatest pleasures or may also be saving themselves pain and $ but for me I want to know and I am glad I try most everything. I found what I like in audio what performance aspects have the most meaning for me and I hope you will or already have. |
I never heard any monitor or slim floorstander ever yield proper scale to musical play back or proper dynamics.I have only heard large loudspeakers approach realistic scale and dynamic range and some of those loudspeakers are horn based.I can see were such realistic images sizes and dynamics could overwhelm some rooms or those used to conventional playback. I understand that horns are not for everyone and I do not hate other loudspeaker types or there performance aspects. I feel controversy in horns is mostly due to bias and inexperience. If you have experience it’s just another loudspeaker type, if a friend wanted a pair it wouldn’t be a issue to talk them out of, if you have bias you troll horn posts and threads in forums, you try to talk others out of owning horns using bias as argument only to find others seeing through the bias and wanting to explore and learn for themselves. I am happy for anyone who finds what they enjoy is this audio hobby to me if it’s making you happy its working for you and that’s the end goal. But by refusing to fully explore available options due to preconceived bias is doing a great disservice to yourself.
|
K horns are availble used $2500 up. Altec a7 $800 and up EV has full horn options under a $1000. Most of these are a good step up from LaScala. The low used price allows room for well thought out upgrades. If ones in the know world class horns can be built under $3k. Or go on craigs they exist all over the USA. |
Horns seem to be less controversial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txRsNmMGWZo |
https://www.facebook.com/groups/614272918584739/ Doing more designing collecting modifying and restorations not manufactering product anymore so on FB and social media. I owned 2 pairs of AG horns built about a doz bass systems for trio owners. AG are OK horns but integration with bass is a issue but its also a issue for many horns since midbass on down is usually compromised in size or not horn loaded. If mid bass and bass are proper horns they yield some of the best mid bass and bass availble but as I mentioned above its were product gets compromised DIY types are free to build proper sized but they are not easily availble maybe this is part of the issue hardly anyone has heard or owned full range all horn loaded systems and they take knowledge and sometimes real physical work to set up. And face it most just want to easily buy just open box and plug in. But with many things in life sometimes whats easy and convenient is not whats best. |
I sold a good num of very large front and back loaded sub bass systems for home audio and also for simulator use. The costs get crazy high very fast. Audiophiles also want veneer or other deluxe finish this adds greatly to costs when things get crazy large, it also adds greatly to packing costs and shipping since you have to pack to keep a 800lb full veneered horn from even the slightest damage a imposible task. With home installs many times you have to hire someone to help tote and someone who knows set up (I had to hire 6 men to move my subbass horn to new audioroom). And most audiorooms can not house or even if they could horn wouldnt fit up stairs through door arround corner etc. I did put alot of design effort into more portable giant designs and ones that easily come apart to fit such but markets limited and the above is problematic. Today I turn customers away and just build the large ones for my own use. Its far easier and cheaper to just slap ported cab to cover mid and bass thus why most are such. |