Here is what I've been using with very good results, a bit stiff, but great bang for the buck... Belden 5000UE
INTERNAL CABLING- Heres some choices, give me your two cents on these cables..... Please _
So here is what I'm working on.
The cabling in my Mirage M1's is 12 gauge zip cord, that has oxidized and turned green at the terminations. Problem is I don't have a huge amount of cash to spend on new cabling, as I've spent most my money on replacing the existing caps in the crossover, with Jantzen superior and Standard Z caps (theres like 20 caps in each crossover). I need close to 50 feet for the two speakers and I only have 75-120 to spend on the cabling, this is a shoe string situation. I can't stand the idea of leaving the green cables in there.-
So here is what I have considered, Please let me know your thoughts on each of these-
1. Jantzen = Constructed of 2 conductors, 1 x red and 1 x black, AWG 17.
The cabling in my Mirage M1's is 12 gauge zip cord, that has oxidized and turned green at the terminations. Problem is I don't have a huge amount of cash to spend on new cabling, as I've spent most my money on replacing the existing caps in the crossover, with Jantzen superior and Standard Z caps (theres like 20 caps in each crossover). I need close to 50 feet for the two speakers and I only have 75-120 to spend on the cabling, this is a shoe string situation. I can't stand the idea of leaving the green cables in there.-
So here is what I have considered, Please let me know your thoughts on each of these-
1. Jantzen = Constructed of 2 conductors, 1 x red and 1 x black, AWG 17.
The Copper is oxygen free 99.9999% pure, solid core. Both conductors are individually polyethylene coated and padded out with stranded isolating fibres the wrapped in polyester tape and further encased in blue termoplastic casing.
My concern with the Jantzen is the size, its only 17 awg, My experience has been the Mirages are power hungry speakers and like big cables. I have big Tara Lab temporal continuum cables running them. Even the zip cord in side them is 12 awg, going 17 AWG makes me nervous. Any comments on this is appreciated.
2. Audioquest type 2, type 4, or G2, X2, Q2
Not sure if any of these are worth their cost. Wondering how much better the type 4 is than the type 2 or how much better the type 2 is over the G2, X2 or Q2. audioquest.com/flat_series_bulk_spools/q2
3. Belden 9497- Dont know much about this cable, I have heard other people have had good results but not sure seems like the size isnt all that I would like.
4. Canare 4s11, again dont know much about these cables but I've heard a lot of good things about them for their price.
5. Ive looked at the Duelund, but they appear to be only sold in single strands, and the cost for the amount required.
6. Curious about Vandenhul (VDH) cables, I am interested in the Snowline and the Skyline, However I haven't been able to find anything on these cables. vandenhul.com/products/cables/speaker-cables
What I want to know is
1. Has anyone had experience with these cables, whats your thoughts on them being used as internal cabling for a pair of Mirage M1's?
2. Is 17 Awg on the Jantzen cables big enough to effectively drive the 8 inch bass drivers on the M1's?
3. Has anyone used the the Vandenhul cables that use carbon, whats your thoughts on their overall presentation, are they neutral, detailed, dull, bright, etc?
4. Is all the hype about using solid conductors over stranded true-?
As always thanks to all who give their two cents-
My system overall,
Proceed Amp3 (eventually I will bi amp with a second one)
Proceed AVP-S
Mirage M1
Tara Labs temporal continuum Speaker cables
Audioquest Diamond interconnects
Musical Fidelity Vdac w/ J-RIVER (coming soon)
50 responses Add your response
You're not supposed to use regular speaker cables like the AQ you list. You need what's called internal hook up wire. Here's a link to show you what I'm talking about. It's a list of bulk cables, so make sure it says hook up in the description. I'm pretty sure they used Kimber in the M series. That's good because Kimber has a huge selection. You shouldn't have any problem matching the same gauge stranded copper wire. https://www.thecableco.com/Catalog/DIY-Cables |
Is there a down side to using cables like aq ? I've heard of people using type 4 with good results, although it's all subjective. I used dh labs t14 years ago with phenomenal results, I would use them again but the price is 9 per ft. I've also read not to use stranded but rather solid core. I certainly don't want to place zip cord in there simply because it was what the factory used 30 years ago. |
I have a simple, low cost, and best solution for you. Go to Parts Connextion and purchase the new Duelund tinned and stranded copper wire in oil impregnated cotton. It is 16 gauge and will never oxidize. It ihas replaced IC and speaker cables costing thousands for many of us Aphiles that know about it. Read Jeff Day’s blog on the wire. Jim Smith, noted guru of audio, also uses it. Amazing sounding and $10 per meter. You won’t find better sound cable and it will not oxidize! |
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I'm not trying to doubt what your saying, just wondering what the advantage of using hook up wire is.
" It's a perfectly reasonable question. When your speakers were designed and voiced, they were listened to as a sum of all the parts. Any time you change to aftermarket parts, you will most likely change the way the speakers sound. And its not always a good change. For example, your speakers are very laid back. You could install cables that can effect the bass and possibly make it stronger. Given the nature of your speakers, that's the last thing you want to do. Internal cables will effect the sound just like external cables do. I'm just saying to exercise caution. The change could be better, but you just don't know until you try it. |
Hi @sfall I am using the Belden for interior wiring only... input to crossovers and crossovers to drivers. I have it in 3 sets of speakers. My current gear is a Coda CL preamp, an exquisitely Modified Sumo Nine power amp or abletec mono Class D amps or a Coda Unison 3.1 integrated.... My speaker cables are hand made prototypes from my old days at Marcof Electronic, a double wound 8 gauge litz and I also throw in some Audioquest... forgot the models, mid line from 10 years ago, also litz.. I've got more cables, but those are what I use most. I've got several interconnects, from the same marcof cables, to several hand made... I also use balance fairly often, I've got some audioquest sky and some hand made litz balanced also. Hand made dac, 3 tables, yada, yada, yada. So, I like the belden quite a bit, but I haven't put it in my system. Tim |
Just read through the post, you can use any wire that you'd like on the interior of a speaker... I do recommend that you know its sound characteristics, I came very close to using the Belden 9497 that idahifi mentioned for the top end and using the 5000U that I use on the bottom... the 9497 is a very smooth and open wire, the 5000U is stiff, but accurate... I have stripped down a few reputable cables and used them.. there is nothing wrong with say a type 4 as mentioned above and using it in your internal wiring. If you use tubes, you may stay very aware of capacitance that goes into different cable designs, they can change the performance of your speaker. I am really only thinking of a set of cables that I made with cat 5e, they sounded decent, but had very high capacitance, if your speaker had a fair amount of inductance and you had enough wire in it, it could effect the phase angles. |
(((My system overall, Proceed Amp3 (eventually I will bi amp with a second one) Proceed AVP-S Mirage M1 Tara Labs temporal continuum Speaker cables Audioquest Diamond interconnects Musical Fidelity Vdac w/ J-RIVER (coming soon)))) Since your existing Main speaker wires are Tara Labs w (Solid core) and your existing interconnects are Audioquest (Solid Core) Doesn't it make sense to stay the same all the way through? Cheers JohnnyR Audio Connection |
Having built and observing many others Supra of Sweden their awg15 Is a excellent choice , 5-9s Copper then Tinned over each strand to eliminate Future oxidation. In Europe used a lot . I gave been using it for 5 years and is very Good and only $110 a foot excellent . One more thing the connection tabs in drivers solder is a horrible conductor. I use solid Silver connectors , and or Furutech Non magnetic Gold plated Phosphor bronze slide connectors. A much better Conductor.A Good Silver solder contains at most 5% Silver ,the rest lead ,Tin . |
@idahifi My audioquest speaker cables are Midnight +.... I also have my marcof cables an old set of straight wire and a set that slips my mind, but a highly reviewed inexpensive 12 gauge. They audioquest are a very nice cable... I've only used the 5000 UE on internal wiring. I had always used a ofc 12 guage multi stranded on the inside of speakers... The 5000UE gives a slight improvement from Lower treble down without any harm to the top end. the 9497 that you mentioned will do a great job from upper bass regions to the treble, its laid back, yet detailed, but beware, the 9497 is highly counterfeited.... The Belden cables are a huge bang for the buck. I saw the Supra 15 ga mentioned above.... The Belden 9497 is a very similar design, it is a 16 gauge that is individually tinned. That cable has a great reputation. The 5000UE is a 12 gauge that uses a few solid core twisted cables, it is non litz and is Blue Jean cables Go to cable. When on a budget, these 2 should be on anyone's short list... shoot, even not on a budget, they are both solid performers that won't embarrass you. |
Just looked up the Supra, Madisound sells it... several wire gauge sizes, from 15 to 12 gauge....$1.04 to about $4 a foot. I have heard good things about this cable for years, but haven't tried it... For internal cabling, I would go for the Belden, sooo much bang for the buck, but if you lean toward the Belden 9497 for long runs of speaker cable, the 12 or 13 gauge Supra is a very good alternative. The Supra and Belden 9497 cables should all be more laid back sounding than the Belden 5000UE. It is a stage forward, up front cable, it never gets aggressive and its detailed... 2 different flavors. Plenty reviews out there on the Supra and Belden 9497. I hope this helps, good, luck. Tim |
Well really, I just didn't want to spend the money on both and I saw so many looks for the 9497 and didn't want to buy a large bulk. I found this link on ebay, he still has some. Remember, this is a stiff cable... The 9497 is an enchanting cable to listen to, but not everyone likes that laid back pretty type sound. The 5000UE is a smooth, more dynamic cable. If I could have found small qty of 9497 that I trusted, I would have used it on the mid or tweeter or both. But, I've been happy building with this Belden. http://www.ebay.com/itm/BELDEN-5000UE-12AWG-2COND-SPEAKER-CABLE-100-/151699645299?hash=item235200e37... |
I'm now using Belden 9497 for internal cabling on my Altec Valencia's. I run a Werner Jagusch Crossover outboard with the 9497 going from crossover to woofers and horns. I have the Duelund 16 Awg in another system as main speaker cable on Harbeth's. I like both, but have yet to compare them directly. I look forward to trying the Duelund in my main system in place of the 9497. I can concur with the above opinion that the 9497 is on the laid back side of the fence. |
I'm trying to wrap my head around cable sounding laid back. Years ago I tried dh labs t14 and one thing I noticed after burn in, was that it was significantly more detailed and seemed faster, would laid back be the opposite of these characteristics, or consistent with them? Or Would a laid cable sound kinda slow and rounded off sounding , kinda blurry? I had a classe CA200 amp a few years ago and many on agon referred to it as having a laid back sound. But I just thought it sounded smooth a bit warm while still being fairly detailed, would this be consistent with the 9497 description as being laid back? Any thoughts on this is appreciated. |
grannyring, you are absolutely correct... just as skin effect changes makes changes in solid core vs stranded wire, insulation resistance changes how signal transfers also... The old Marcof Speaker cables that I referenced earlier were individual litz that used cotton insulation each strand was covered... The problem is soldering, we had to use solder pots to make cables with the cotton insulated litz. I'm not arguing that the Duelund could be better, just saying that the sound, vs cost/value of these other cables are tremendous. When you have a budget of $100 and you'd like to have 16 to 12 gauge wiring, the Dueland breaks the bank. |
12meters for $120 is a lot of wire? I thought that was your budget? Anyway, understand if not in your budget. I typically never liked the sound of stranded wire always preferring solid core in the past. Tinned wire was also a big turn off for me in the past, but this new Duelund wire is an outlier. I started down this whole road after using the very good Western Electric stranded and tinned wire from the 60s and 70s. It bettered my $1200 speaker cables and the Duelund bettered the WE16 ga. Fun stuff. I use the Duelund wire inside my speakers, crossovers, low voltage hook up wire in gear, speaker cables and ICs. |
Maybe I miss calculated the cost, I understand 12 meters is 120, but that's only one lead isn't it? So for two leads that cost would double to 240. I'm basing this the following link that shows the duelund is a single wire rather than a pair. Does duelund make one that is a pair of wires for the 10 per meter on http://www.partsconnexion.com/duelund-81514.html |
I haven't replaced the resistors, I was going to with a mundordf that was recommended by Tony Gee at humble hifi. He spent a lot of time with me helping me decide what caps to use. I have an order I'm placing with him for the caps, I hadn't placed the order yet because I'm trying to figure out the internal cabling before I place the order, so I can include it in the order assuming he has the cable I decide on. He recommended the jantzen but I was concerned it was rather small only being 17awg. Long story short, I may wait on the resistors as I'm already over extended. |
Assuming the duelund is out of my budget, I'm looking at the belden, just need to decide which one, the 5000 or the 9497. I'm wondering if one has the advantage over the other relating to air and detail. I was looking at the supra stuff as well but it seems the 3.4 is the one to get and it's like 4 bucks a ft which puts it out of the budget. |
The 9497 is a very musical cable, I'd compare it to the WE16ga that grannyring mentioned. I've used he WE16ga, very nice wire. On the 5000UE, By dynamic, I mean, slightly better bass and faster transients. I've not played with the Duelund.... I chose the 5000 for cost vs performance.... Its an honest cable and its cheap. The individual strand gauge is high, it reminds me of the better Audioquest solid core Litz cables, but it isn't litz. The good news is that all the cables that you are looking at will perform well.... Only you can decide.... I had a link saved with very nice lynk resistors 10 pc's of the values of your choice for only $30+ dollars... these are good resistors, they are non inductive and compare with mills. If I can find the link again, I'll post it. |
Idahifi I would not stress over the resistors like you would the caps.... Once you get to a very good resistor, you will get good results... I've used mundorf, lynk, mills and Vishay/dale all with good results... As grannyring said, the Mills are very good and they are also my go to resistor, but the better grade resistors just don't have the dramatic differences that caps do... You have picked excellent caps.... I've looked at M1 crossovers in the past, they really are not bad stock, get rid of and replace the electrolytics with a decent MKP, put those Jantzen's in key areas, replace the resisters with a good non inductive, re wire and you will have a wonderful speaker. |
idahifi, I don't want to confuse you with what is said between grannyring and myself. Neither of us are steering you wrong.... He is looking strictly at the purist DIY point of view.... I am looking at cost vs performance... I just don't want it to sound like there is any type of argument. Bill, I've read your post for the past several years and always consider you giving practical and sound advice. |
one last response @idahifi then I believe that I have given you all the advice that I have without a further question... I said all of your wire choices would perform well, I re read your post and saw that you were consider snowline... I have used that also, I found it thin on top and not very good in dynamics, so I stand corrected on my earlier comment. |
I'm not confused between the discussion. I realize that the duelund may have some advantage over belden, however as mentioned, cost is an issue and what I need is the best bang for the buck. However I appreciate the rhetoric in the duelund because sometimes things change I could come into money or at a later time have the same task and would be interested and able to afford the duelund. I probably will replace those resistors and check out those mills resistors. For now I need to decide whether to put the 9497 on the mids and tweets, or just use the 5000 thru out. I'll probably purchase a little of both and try it from the amp to the speakers, just to see which I like better. Would you know how long the burn in time is for the belden. |
grannyring- Do you feel the Duelund 20 gauge may be better than the 16 gauge on the mid and horn drivers. I have just my 15" woofer and horns, and will likely try my 16 gauge in both places to start. Off subject, but I've been breaking in a pair of Duelund 20 gauge interconnect with my Sony PS 1 CDP. This may have to stay where it is since it's un-shielded, and the only other place I can try it would be on my turntable. I may just do that to give it a shot..... |
@idahifi my experience is that wire will start coming to its own at around 100 hours, hard break in can take 400 hours. As far as 9497 on mid & tweeter & the 5000UE on the woofer or all 5000UE??? I've payed with the 9497, it is smooth and detailed... I called it laid back, but trying to come up with a better term, lets call it recessed... meaning just a bit less output in the mid through the upper scale, still good detail, just not as forward sounding.... The 5000UE is really a neutral cable and is a bit faster than the 9497.... not sure that I can describe it better. for @fjn04 I used the 5000UE when I rebuilt a pair of Altec A7's... I removed the pots and put fixed pads in them.... These sounded very nice indeed. If you go Duelund, I would recommend that you stay with a 16gauge if possible. |
I have been selling Belden 9497 on EBAY for several years and have had nothing but positive comments from my customers. It is especially musical with low impedance tube applications. It is the wire I use in my own tube based system if you care I have a video up on youtube. Just search Belden 9497 it... shows my Werner Jagusch Crossover outboard using the wire on the screen shot. |