Jazz for aficionados
Frogman, there's one thing for certain, you could never mistake Miles for anyone else; with or without the muted trumpet, he had an unmistakable sound. Maybe it's because you're a learned musician, but we have slightly different tastes; this is too laid back for me, I prefer "Walkin". Maybe you can critique that one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4egXm9LRj2I Enjoy the music. |
After seeing David Pike for $40, I decided to go through my collection and dig out all that crap I bought based on "Stereophile's" recommendations, it ain't worth 2 cents. The stuff I don't want, nobody else wants it either, even when it was recommended by Stereophile. My music collection (the good stuff) is like the house I'm living in, whether the price goes up or down, I ain't selling. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I'm glad you're as critical as you are, I jumped the gun on that one, scratch the drummer; you were right. I'm going to overlook your last two sentences. This is the way the Dunham Dancers moved to the beat, can you dig it? That gal is hypnotic, you have to be tuned to that frequency in order to dig it, but your tuner can't get that channel, it's busted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwR1V5w_KB8 If this girl got a cd out, I'm going to order it tonight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCkRAPG7sZQ Cuba is where it's at. Enjoy the music. |
Pryso, Mingus "Moanin" is from the album "Blues and Roots"; here are the tunes and artists; "Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting" – 5:39 "Cryin' Blues" – 4:58 "Moanin'" – 8:01 "Tensions" – 6:27 "My Jelly Roll Soul" – 6:47 "E's Flat Ah's Flat Too" – 6:37 Personnel[edit] Charles Mingus – bass John Handy – alto sax Jackie McLean – alto sax Booker Ervin – tenor sax Pepper Adams – baritone sax Jimmy Knepper – trombone Willie Dennis – trombone Dannie Richmond – drums Horace Parlan – piano, except for "E's Flat Ah's Flat Too" Mal Waldron – piano on "E's Flat Ah's Flat Too" Pepper Adams is an artist I identify by sound; you know your friends by sight, I know Pepper Adams by sound; while I didn't know the artists on this tune, I would have bet my left testicle that was Pepper Adams on baritone sax. |
Alex, it sounds better the second time around; you can focus on any instrument you glossed over the first time. Alex I'm a stickler for detail; the shoes the guy in the picture is wearing are black tassle. I thought they were "super cool" and had a pair in high school in 56. Mine were exactly like the brown one's, only black. https://www.google.com/search?q=tassel++shoes&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=8TYjZwCm...: This music is "super cool" too. |
Frogman, You are saying exactly what I knew you would say; by definition, you can not practice "improvising" , and that's that. East is East, and West is West, never the twain shall meet. The fact that you both are accomplished musicians doesn't change anything; the sky is still blue. Enjoy the music. |
This is from the album "Blues and Roots"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyOlc8BaR0A My mistake; he sounds more like Pepper Adams than Pepper himself; but I guess that was intentional. |
Frogman, I know you and Rok, are sick and tired of this, so am I, but it will go on until it ends. When you see pictures of Miles talking to Coltrane, Cannonball, or Gil Evans, there is always written music in front of them. When these guys talked about what they were going to do before the event, there was no written music. I never recall seeing any "written music" at any time; now you can make whatever you like out of that. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, Frogman, Alex; David Pike is the subject; he has a lot of music that I've never heard before, and according to my sensibilities, it's all good music. Why don't we visit "you tube", and get back together with our favorites by him, or discuss why you don't like David Pike if it turns out that way; see you in a bit. |
Thank you Frogman, and Rok; now that I can see the instrument when it's being played, I know precisely what sound it makes, fortunately I like Bolero, because I'll be playing it over and over. I can pipe it into the big rig and check my speakers. Maybe this is my first lesson in "objectivity". Enjoy the music. |
David Pike is someone I haven't heard a lot of, or about, and I can't figure why not? I have him on a CD, "Pike's Peak", that doesn't have one weak cut on it, they all rate 4 stars at least, plus Bill Evans is on piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NHC_CNpBLk David Samuel Pike (March 23, 1938 – October 3, 2015) was a jazz vibraphone and marimba player. He appears on many Herbie Mann albums as well as those by Bill Evans, Nick Brignola, Paul Bley and Kenny Clarke. He also recorded extensively as leader, including a number of albums on MPS Records. All Smiles (MPS, 1968) With Herbie Mann The Family of Mann (Atlantic, 1961) Herbie Mann Returns to the Village Gate (Atlantic, 1961 [1963]) Herbie Mann Live at Newport (Atlantic, 1963) My Kinda Groove (Atlantic, 1964) Herbie Mann Plays The Roar of the Greasepaint – The Smell of the Crowd (Atlantic, 1965) Monday Night at the Village Gate (Atlantic, 1965 [1966]) Latin Mann (Columbia, 1965) Well Frogman, according to "There's a reason they are not well Known", how does David Pike fit? Enjoy the music. |
Dave Pike's CD's are running $20 used; it seems as soon as I want to buy somebody's CD's, the price goes up; it's a conspiracy. There are no stores that sell CD's close buy, they all went out of business, and now they're raising the prices on line. First Leon Thomas, and now Dave pike; do those people's estates get more money, or just the record companies see more profit? |
Learsfool, your whole post was "wack". I had no idea there was so much difference between a jazz musician, and a classical musician. The only thing you can practice is a written piece of music, or you can practice familiarity with your musical instrument. This is what it is about; to have a musical idea in your head, and to make your instrument audibly produce that sound exactly as you hear it in your head. That means your brain extends through your hands into the musical instrument and the precise sound you want to hear comes out. The more I talk about this the clearer it becomes. Simply because others don't believe what I'm saying, only means they can't do it. How specific can I be in regard to the time he practiced, 00 during one summer when he lived in my apartment. Before that time, he had a number of jazz albums that he led, and many more where he was a side man with some of the musicians we have talked about ad infinitum. I have all of those albums and I listen to them frequently. None of those albums have the same music he was performing three nights a week to packed houses; he was in no way new to St. Louis fans and musicians. I was mesmerized at each performance, and since I drove him to each performance (in the deuce) I never missed a one. Jazz musicians in St. Louis have performed as sidemen with practically all the famous jazz musicians we have discussed. A local musician I've known for a long time, showed me his photographic portfolio where he performed with the musicians we have discussed when they came to St. Louis, and needed his particular instrument. My friend had no trouble in getting accomplished jazz musicians on whatever other instruments he chose. Jazz is really the best music to represent America because: It is partly planned and partly spontaneous; that is, as the musicians perform a pre-determined tune, they have the opportunity to create their own interpretations within that tune in response to the other musicians' performances and whatever else may occur "in the moment" -- this is called improvisation and is the defining element of jazz. Improvisation is the key element of jazz. There is no better example of democracy than a jazz ensemble: individual freedom but with responsibility to the group. In other words, individual musicians have the freedom to express themselves on their instrument as long as they maintain their responsibility to the other musicians by adhering to the overall framework and structure of the tune. He was the leader and they discussed for about an hour before they went on stage what was to take place. I looked and listened, but I might as well been looking and listening to Martians, musician talk is Greek to me. These musicians did not play any standard tunes; that's why the house was packed, his fans did not come to hear "Stardust", they came to hear him "wail", jam, rock the house; they came to hear him, and he was like a wild man on his instrument. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, I stated that was the Summer he was in my apartment. I'm sure he practiced morning noon and night in order to get so proficient with such a complex instrument, also his mother taught him, that's in his bio. He was playing before he started school and in the church. I was talking to a musician friend of mine, telling him how good my other friend was. "He was good, but he wasn't that good", was his reply. I'll show him I thought; that's when I bought every record I could find of him as leader or sideman. None of those records had the music he was playing that summer. He died not long after he left my apartment, and none of that music was recorded; consequently everything I have uttered about him is "moot", since I can not proof anything about the music he was playing. Of course his musician friends knew he was at my apartment that Summer, but I have no proof what so ever in regard to the music. You can conclude this any way you like, and we can call it concluded. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, that was a very good link, and as far as I know, before "that Summer" he lived by it. During the time he was in my apartment, it's quite possible he would have liked to practice, but it was impossible. I'm only stating what I witnessed, no less and no more. As I reflect back to that time, I believe he knew his time was short, and nothing was more important than to get approval for his "new music" from the people, his fans; and he got that when we went to the clubs, he even played center stage under the ARCH here in St. Louis on the 4th of July. You can't get no bigger crowd than that, and he got rave reviews. This is in no way about my philosophy of practicing or not practicing; I'm just giving an account of what I witnessed during one of the most glorious Summers in my life. Rok, you have already given his "old music" four and a half stars, maybe you would give his new music an even 5 if you could hear it. May he rest in peace. Enjoy the music. |
Learsfool, I don't want you to leave this thread, but if you and Frogman make an absurd statement in unison, the fact that you both are accomplished musicians, will make it no less absurd. You can not practice "improvisation"; how can you answer a question that has not even been asked? And you are saying that you can practice answering questions that have not been asked. If that's not absurd, I would like to know what is. "Improvisation" is spontaneously playing music, the right music, that fits in after the soloist before you. Now explain to me, how you can practice that? You go on to state, "Honestly, O-10, any good student musician, and certainly all professionals, can do what you are talking about here, no matter what type of music they play. Your last sentence above is truly absurd for this reason." That statement was too "wack" for words. You are saying any student musician can do what Oscar Peterson, Sonny Rollins, and J. J. Johnson wished they could do; they wished they could transfer their thoughts to their musical instrument. That last paragraph is almost comical: You are bothered by my "anti- intellectualism", and Frogman is bothered by my arrogance. As they used to say in USAF, My heart pumps purple panther piss for the both of you. Enjoy the music. |
We seem to be in a "phase locked loop". I'm going to extract myself and move on. Although David Pike's CD's cost more than most, his music is certainly more interesting than most. He covers a wide range of sounds that were popular in the 60's, from what I've heard so far, and I've only scratched the surface. In my 2-25-16 post, I mentioned "Pike's Peak" that I have in my collection; it stands repetition quite well, and that's an important quality, "repeated listening" means you can put it in a play list, and not throw it out when it comes up again. I'm moving on to "Bossa Nova Carnival" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRPDW2XIly4 on this page we find a few more of his works. I would like for you to review which ever CD you choose, and get back to us with that review. That will enable us to make better and quicker decisions on "new music". One of the purposes of this thread is to aid in the acquisition of new music. This is our life's blood, and what makes us different from many other audiophiles. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, "professional athletes" practice, every "professional" practices. I made a statement that was taken way out of context, and we're still off to the races about that statement, although it was a very significant statement. Let me expound on the important elements of that statement. You can not practice "improvisation"; every night that he was on the stage in front of a crowd, he was practicing because every night he was improvising. I was talking about one uniquely gifted individual who had mastered his very complex instrument some time ago. Since he was performing three nights a week, there was absolutely no need for some kind of ritualistic practicing. Everything he was playing was in his head; this was music he needed to play, and get approval of, not from some teacher at "Julee yard", but from "his public", the people who knew him, and came to see and hear him. I have never liked what's called "free jazz", it sounds like someone just playing a bunch of notes very fast, but when he played a lot of music fast, it was coherent and I understood it. The only thing I can compare to what he was playing is "Bird's Best Bop"; no matter how fast, and how much music Bird plays, it's coherent. Other musicians can attempt this, but they always fail, he was doing it. This is as good as I can get in clarifying a unique situation, with a unique individual. Enjoy the music. |
Real Jazz was specifically "African American", it emanated from the depths of the souls of those ghettos in Chicago and New York; I am referring to urban "Modern Jazz". Miles Davis, has been given far too much credit for being the spokesman for this music, so has Wynton Marsalis. (Frogman, I am speaking of a specific frame of time; 1950 to 65.) No longer am I specifically into "Bebop", but the music that was also created during that time frame by some of the same musicians. This music emanated from the souls of the people whose ancestors were slaves, and they came north to the big cities for a better life, only to find a different kind of hell, almost as bad as slavery; although nothing on Gods green earth has ever been created worse than slavery. The music "jazz", in the big cities is about "African American" life in the big cities. When and where the economic realities are horrendous, the human soul must find some solace, and that solace was "Jazz"; it expressed the frustrations, it also expressed the undefinable joys of being Black, not just Black, but the most unique race of people to ever exist on planet earth; that is because they have drawn from the most infinite gene pool to ever exist: all the tribes of Black Africa, plus all the European genes as well; which explains Black people with blue eyes. That race of people exhibited the most incredible inventiveness ever witnessed, most of which was stolen by white people. Presently, that same resourcefulness, will be the only thing to get the working class out of poverty that has been created in the last 30 years. |
Trombone Shorty is full of life; a unique southern kind of life that believes in "You got to take what you can git"; not what's best for you or what you want. Trombone Shorty is saying he's looking at what's available, and he is going to git him some. He is also singing about the reality he is seeing in the "Southern Ghetto"; more manufactured poverty, and the violence that always goes with it. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, you sure know how to write, but you don't know how to reason; when genes are dispersed in such a casual manner, the only thing certain is the origin of the genes; the Black genes came from Africa. If you had studied all the various tribes of Africa as I have, you know what an incredibly diverse place it was before "they sold slaves". Unless the genes were dispersed scientifically, there could be no conclusion of who has them, or how they will be manifested. People Black as the Ace of Spades have managed to be successful in the European manner when they came out of slavery; how this occurred is a mystery to "everybody". It's no mystery how the light skinned blacks who were educated because they were the masters offspring prospered; but how Black people as black as the Ace of spades prospered is most certainly a mystery to me. When discussing something of this nature, a million people and a 50 year time span is not exorbitant. When talking about anything or anybody, the most important question is; who was his daddy. Then we can go from there. Was he the little baby boy who was delivered to the penthouse in New York, or was he the sharecroppers son. (no matter what color, he got a tough roe to hoe.) It's not a matter of blaming "Whitey" because he's in the same boat; the aristocracy has played it that way. |
Rok, "Jazz" is music from the soul, it's about what you feel, it does not require your intellect. Trombone Shorty is playing the jazz of the Southern Ghetto of New Orleans; he is pouring out his frustrations and desires through his music. Those Southern musicians were always very honest in their music; just as "Trombone Shorty" is. I will be listening and commenting more on "Trombone Shorty". |
Frogman, truce; I was listening to this, and I wondered what you would think about it; I considered it beautiful music without considering "genre"; that's not always important. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxiMprePISA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygb-JDuAYOo |
This is considered to be the very latest "jazz" and I'm giving you guys first crack at it. Listen with an open mind, but first listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJpm2GTyTW4 |
“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: all your Piety or Wit Shall not lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor will all your Tears wash out a Word of it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kxuAZictJ4 "The Rubaiyat of Dorothy Ashby" might be her greatest moment, I certainly know it has been my most listened to record. The words are so true, and everybody who has participated on this thread has been subjected to "The Moving Finger", for they have left a record that can not be altered; that is the way of The Moving Finger. Frogman's record is right here for everyone to see; while it began very good, somewhere along the way he was seduced by "The Imp of The Perverse", and became hostile; first it was Rok, and later on me. I mentioned something I observed in the Summer of 69, when a jazz musician who was a friend of mine, lived in my apartment; this was in regard to his practice habits which were nonexistent for that summer, although he performed professionally, three times a week. It meant zit to me whether he practiced or didn't practice, but Frogman, and Learsfool went on and on telling me how necessary it is to practice. Why did they go on and on about practicing, as if I was an advocate of not practicing. Although what they were talking about had absolutely nothing to do with me personally, they went on and on like two great "Energizer Bunnies" as though I was an advocate of not practicing, and they were so convincing, that they gathered more "Energizer Bunnies" along the way who went on and on; now I got a whole troupe, or tribe of them coming after me daily. The musician under discussion died in 71. He was not in good health the last time I saw him, and none of his "new" music was recorded; consequently, since I couldn't prove anything in regard to this music, revealing his name was pointless; but that didn't stop them from going on and on, recruiting new "Energizer Bunnies" along the way telling me how essential practice is, when they all should have gone to where he was buried and preached to him; he was the one who didn't practice. As silly as this was, there were no mirrors available for them to see it. After that, it became something about learning music. I don't know A-flat from B-flat, and not only that, I don't want to know. As an "Aficionado" of jazz records, knowing how to make music is not on my resume. I stated that they (Learsfool and Frogman) were free to teach, and those who wanted to learn were free to learn; but that wasn't good enough, I had to learn. None of those long diatribes had any thing to do with the music from an "Aficionado's" point of view in regard to collecting the best jazz records. Here again they collected new "Energizer Bunnies", all of them telling me that I should be eager to learn whatever Frogman and Learsfool were trying to teach. Can you imagine a whole flock of "Energizer Bunnies" deriding me for not wanting to learn, when nobody knew exactly what it was that I was supposed to learn, or they were trying to teach. Check Frogman's long diatribe on 03-10-2016 9:11 PM page 108,and tell me what that's about? That is followed by "Leersfool's" comment: "I am merely trying to correct a few of your most obvious misperceptions. I know you do not care about this, but it is not about you - it is for others that read this thread and who are interested in how music and musicians really work, of which there are clearly plenty." Frogman and Learsfool attached so many perceptions and misperceptions to me, that it wasn't even funny; when they got through with all those long diatribes about who I was, I had to look in the mirror to make sure I had not changed to the person they said I was. You can read on pages 107 and 108 how rediculous and absurd they became; especially when you consider what this thread was initially about; it's spelled out at the top of each page. This thread began in 2013, and went along just fine until Frogman and Learsfool thought it should encompass learning music, that was just fine with me, but I have learned all the music I want to know, and it beats the heck out of me why that's not good enough for them, even when they can teach anybody else who wants to learn. Their new "Energizer Bunnies" went on to state they didn't understand why Frogman and Learsfool should continue wasting their time trying to teach me. Whatever they were trying to teach, I didn't even ask to be taught in the first place. (How absurd can you get?) Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, in Re. to 4-28-2016, 11:21 PM, I asked an open question to any "Professional musician" who might know the answer; and what did you do; right off the bat you nullified the question, invented another scenario and never answered my honest question, even though you went through one of your usual long diatribes. (Page 121) I had to answer my own question, which I did. Once "the Moving Finger" write's, it's got you. Enjoy the music. |
Another Sahib Shahab with Phil Woods; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NSIhLcC-Lo&list=PLRQa_9yD-vYVsqFTm-B6FKN4klXCwuBAa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3xFwtK3A2Y&index=7&list=PLRQa_9yD-vYVsqFTm-B6FKN4klXCwuBAa Plus an early Roland Kirk, "Three For The Festival"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWPUKskCv7E |
When we started using that description of "jazz jazz" to denote the music in a certain time frame, it seemed agreeable to everyone, but in hindsight it was a mistake, because jazz evolves like everything else. Recently I got a new car, and it's "star Trek" compared to the old one; I don't know if I will ever be able to operate all the buttons. Although this music has evolved, I haven't; guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, I've got as much of a clue to that title as I do this one, but I like them both. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvXaCs3Pcq4 |
Here's that same group again; they leave me breathless this time; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCl6hyu2HiE |
Hey Rok, you and Lazarus have a lot in common; you're the only people to come back from the dead. If you left because you wanted to be missed, you achieved your objective; I missed you. In case you haven't forgotten,you're primarily responsible for this thread, you urged me to start it, and I said if you want a thread like that, start it yourself, but at that time you didn't have the confidence; so much for history. Tell us how have you been, and how was your vacation in "The Med" (that's short for Mediterranean) |
Rok, I'll let Grant Green tell my story for me; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SHdqD077yY But it could be worse; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTLqp-KKuo Someday I'm going to end. |
Frogman, that's just what I needed; I remember when that was on the jukebox in my favorite bistro. It's impossible to feel bad when listening to this music; I'm going to have the doctor give me an injection of "Boogie Juice"! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75-gcaA850g&index=4&list=PL90_ln5l--TIS8EjQnjnzGDMJieQjMxCZ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqxU8xxRmwM |
